Gender Dysphoria and Mental Illness

Author: Theweakeredge

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#31
zedvictor4
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This kind of shit is why I don't take you seriously.
This kind of shit is why I don't take you seriously.



However: If interpretation is applicable, then variation is inevitable and misinterpretation is possible. Though I'm confident that I offered a reasonable interpretation.

And you interpret words accordingly, and so do I.....As far as I am concerned physical sex and physical gender are the same, and are established within the first two weeks after conception.  Modern interpretations of gender do now apply,  but to postnatal psychological conditions relative to an assumed contradictory identity.

One doesn't doubt that what influences said contradiction, might be in part due to an endocrinal irregularities. Nonetheless one cannot dismiss out of hand, the impact of social conditioning on cognitive development.



#32
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@zedvictor4
Yes, lately, strong research suggests that an incorrect amount of miss-timed secretion of male hormone during stages of fetal development may create a transgendered individual - whether male or female. Biologically, nature will produce a female unless male androgens are supplied at the right times and in the right amounts. There are physiological and mental gray areas between male and female "absolutes". Additionally, there are some theories arguing a genetic model of causality.
Dr. Norman P. Spack, the co-founder of the Gender Management Services Program, a clinic that provides treatments to delay puberty in children questioning their gender, feels that we should look at a transgender identity as a medical condition, not as a psychiatric disorder.
As he explained during a Harvard Transgender Awareness Week event, "These people aren't crazy. It's a medical condition."

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#33
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@zedvictor4
Funny thing is that you didn't engage with my arguments - and I suppose I've come to accept that - you don't really want to facilitate conversation - you want to waste time and endlessly argue semantics. Have fun with that
#34
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@Theweakeredge

Yes.

This was what I was questioning.

One doesn't doubt that cases as you describe do occur......But I still hold that "dysphoria" though connected, is nonetheless an acquired state of mind.

Neither does one doubt that psychological dysfunction will manifest as a result....Such is the human condition.


I also proposed the idea, that the seemingly modern proliferation of gender issues is perhaps environmentally affected..... BPA for example......Studies do suggest this.

This would also substantiate the idea, that hormonal imbalances are linked to the dietary habits of both parent and child, rather than being a natural genetic occurrence.


So my question to Theweakeredge still holds also; why do we not concentrate efforts on causes rather that effects....Is this perhaps more to do with the current politics and fascination surrounding issues of gender and sexuality?
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#35
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@zedvictor4
Gender Dysphoria is always "acquired" just as every state of mind is - gender dysphoria and gender identity do not correlate - transgender people and gender dysphoria do not correlate. Furthermore "studies do suggest this" - okay then! Link the studies! Don't just claim that studies prove x or y without actually providing the studies. Again - there is no modern proliferation, it is the fact that now the social environment is more receptive to trans people, and therefore more trans people will feel comfortable coming out. 

There are reportedly 200,000 people who are trans in the UK, in contrast, in the US there are 1,400,000 (mind you - the US number is from 2016, and the UK number is from 2020), the population of the US is 328.2 million, compared to 66.65 million - so we get a for every five Americans there's one UK citizen - so we would expect for the number of trans individuals to be closer to 300,000 in UK, why are they underrepresented then? It's very easy to know why - and the numbers being fairly close here actually make sense:

"A recent YouGov poll for PinkNews showed that by 50% to 27% Britons believe that people should be allowed to self-identify as a gender different to the one they were assigned at birth. While still a commanding lead, this figure is a slight decline since 2019 (56% to 23%"
"More than six in ten (62%) Americans say they have become more supportive toward transgender rights compared to their views five years ago. By contrast, about one-quarter (25%) say their views are more opposed compared to five years ago."
As I said, the reception to trans people often has causes on the amount of trans people who feel comfortable to come out - the same thing happened with gay people, with bi people, literally any sexual minoirty that would be burned at stake.

Also... what? Treating the effects? Have you actually been paying attention - the cause of gender dysphoria is someone's body not matching their gender identity.... so you change the body using hormones, just like you would in a case of depression - and I've already said this.
"To answer that question - we do.... do you not know how transitioning works? The physical body is at fault, just like in a case of depression, so we use hormones to correct said physical body, it's not that hard to follow." [Post #30]
But just like most of that response, you ignored it. 
#36
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@Theweakeredge

Nope. "Have you actually been paying attention"?..... Gender dysphoria is an acquired  post-natal condition, whereas physical identity is determined within a  few days of conception.

Therefore it's peoples minds that don't match their bodies.....So we gratify the mind with hormone therapy and even surgery.....Such is the human condition , I suppose.


And so, hormone imbalance and environmental influences....... I don't think that it's necessarily too non-PC to discuss this....So BPA, an oestrogen mimicking plastics component used in food and drink containers, water pipes etc.......Coincidence?.......Your views.
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#37
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@zedvictor4
Now I know for a fact you aren't paying attention - gender identity and gender dysphoria ARE NOT THE SAME THING gender dysphoria develops as a result of an extreme un-comfortability with their body not matching their mind. By the way, where are those studies you mentioned? You said they suggested something, so where are they? Also please link the source for your comparison - but before you even do let me give you a little lecture about chemistry. Something can have a similar chemical structure to another molecule, take phytoestrogens, and have literally no relation to estrogen itself  - yes they have a similar chemical makeup - but the stuff its made out of are entirely different. 

You legitimately sound like one of those people who think soy lowers your testosterone....

Furthermore... you've dropped literally 90% of my points- if you wanted to convince me you were a serious interlocutor you have failed miserably. 
#38
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@Theweakeredge.

As I read it, you only really have one point....Justification.

And dysphoria is dysphoria, and the term gender dysphoria doesn't really make grammatic sense anyway.

And given the pressure to conform these days, how often does one feel truly euphoric?

And as for synthesised chemicals, the clue is in the word mimic....And gender is, though physiology may be affected by such environmental influences.

And you clearly have an agenda, that you are trying to justify, at all costs.


My attitude to sex and sexuality is very liberal.....So within the parameters set by current law, I have no concerns about who does what to whom, or how an individual might achieve their desires. Though sometimes I like to challenge P.C. non-sense, with a bit of good old common sense.

So modern people may be losing sight of reality, but it's still there lurking in their DNA.
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#39
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@zedvictor4
Again - nothing but vague hand waving. Do you have an actual argument? Those studies at all? 

Because see -to me it's clear that your the one whose been indoctrinated or can't accept a proposition that doesn't agree with their old one, because even after several times asking - you've failed to actually rebut the points made, provide the studies you allegedly sourced, nada. I've given you every opportunity to do that, but you have refused to take them. 

You dropped: More trans people being recorded now is merely a result of how societies treat trans people, using population numbers and relative accepted-ness rate in two countries to prove the assertion - keep in mind that this point was a good 60% of the entire post.

You also dropped largely any talk of how we treat depression exactly the same as we treat gender dysphoria, and that's a pretty important point.

And you've ignored the fact that gender dysphoria is different from gender identity, the two do not necessarily correlate. 
#40
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@Theweakeredge

As I stated...Dysphoria is, and physical identity in most people is decided in the first few days after conception.   I didn't once state that dysphoria and identity were the same.

And adding gender to create a modern compound is what it is....As is the modern overuse of the word gender.

And information relating to hormone mimicking chemicals in plastics is readily available on line, as you well know...Though choosing to ignore the fact only strengthens my notion, that your personal agenda and it's justification, is actually what drives  the case in point.

And depression is depression....And though a depressive will undoubtedly be dysphoric...Nonetheless, they are not one and the same. Depression is a mental illness, whereas dysphoria is a state of mind....The opposite of euphoria....Do we use hormone therapy to alleviate  euphoria?

And more trans people being recorded now, is because for some reason more trans people are being recorded now...And I proposed reasons......Modernist necessity, and environmental.


And "vague hand waving",  just diminishes your argument and your credibility.


Because Theweakeredge says so, then it must be correct....Nope....Doesn't work like that......Expect to be challenged.




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#41
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@zedvictor4
Nope -  you've failed to cite the studies you said you had, failed to actually make unique points this round (you've just repeated pretty much every point from before) - and no.... dysphoria isn't developed "a few days after conception", it isn't developed until, typically, the age of 7 years old.
"We found that nearly all TM and TW first experienced GD by age 7 years (gender identity typically becomes constant at ages 5-7 years),1 which is only 1.5 and 2.2 years later than each cohort’s first life memories (which typically occur at ages 3-4 years).2 Our findings are consistent with prior research3 that found that GD generally develops early in life."
Furthermore, the equivocation of depression and dysphoria was only so far as we treat them - that was literally it bud.

Perhaps you could say "expect to be challenged" if you had any level of intellectual honesty.... but you don't - you say "studies suggest" but present no studies, you repeat yourself without engaging, and you time after time completely ignore half of the arguments contained in response - you are literally just hand-waving those away. You see - if Fauxlaw, or Fourtrouble, Sum1hugme, etc, etc  came on, then maybe you'd have a point, but it's you, and you don't. 
#42
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@Theweakeredge

So we will leave it at that.

You have failed to convince me, and I have not tried to convince you of anything.....I have reasonably questioned, and received nothing new in return.....Only ongoing supposition relative to an ongoing trend.


8 days later

#43
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A case in OR, decided by a federal judge, determined that schools, businesses, cannot prohibit people physically expressing [known as cis-gender] one sex, but who think they are another sex, from entering the locker rooms and showers of the sex they think they are.
 
Thus demonstrates the fallacy of thought over physical evidence. While those who make such decisions of gender-thinking also believe their rights are being offended if prevented from acting on their thinking, they ignore that the rights of people who know what sex they are by birth are being violated. Violated by thinking of others. 
 
Does that make sense to anybody? Obviously, it does. It says that the 4.5% of gender-benders in the U.S. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/15/supreme-court-denies-job-protection-lgbt-workers/4456749002/
think their minority position takes precedent over the majority 95.5% whose knowledge of physical evidence demonstrates their knowledge of their gender. People can think and believe anything they want. But when that thinking violates others’ rights, that’s usurpation of rights. We have ten constitutional rights that set that latter precedent. Think as you wish, but keep it in your thoughts, or within a like-minded group, but, don't force it on the knowledge of others, because, otherwise, your resulting actions are violating those others’ rights.
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#44
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@fauxlaw
Um... people having a locker room, bathroom isn't a right... ya know - actually not a right, but furthermore, no - you're just incorrect on the whole. The majority of US citizens don't know that there are three branches of government much less complex neurology. 
#45
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TRIBALISM FTW.
#46
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@Athias
Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, it's an abnormality; detractors use "mental illness" as a means to pathologize gender dysphoric behavior. In other words, it's an attempt to substantiate their objections to Gender Dysphoria using "medicine" as a basis. But here's the thing: "mental illness" is not medical. "Mental illness" is a myth. The concept of "illness" in psychiatric lexicon has never been substantiated by medical science, and had been perpetuated by the APA for years. It started with Jean-Martin Charcot, a nineteenth century neurologist, who intended on demonstrating that "hysteria" had a neuropathological basis. He was expediently discredited.
well stated
#47
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@fauxlaw
Thus demonstrates the fallacy of thought over physical evidence.
It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.
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#48
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Your support there reminds me of a certain DDO.... the guy who refused Pastuer's research.... ya know - the germ theory of disease - same vibes-  same lack of substantiation. 
#49
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@Theweakeredge
Your support there reminds me of a certain DDO.... the guy who refused Pastuer's research.... ya know - the germ theory of disease - same vibes-  same lack of substantiation. 
Except it does not lack "substantiation." You're once again criticizing that which you have NOT read. You can avail yourself to the information. Internet sourcing is not a rule for  providing evidence. You can do some honest research rather than parrot some article or blog.

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#50
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@Athias
Then.... link it. Let me read it - if you are so convinced by this source, then just give it to me. It's not that difficult. 
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#51
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@Athias
Cause from YOU there has been exactly ZERO substantiation for any of your claims. You have a hard time proving a thing you claim. 
#52
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@Theweakeredge
I don't play games: I've already provided the titles of the books. Read them or don't. It's of no consequence either way.
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#53
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@Athias
Wheeere? Do you think I have a perfect mind? Will it kill you to just drop it... also - funny that you have a book to demonstrate your claims - perhaps something peer-reviewed would work better anywhose. 
#54
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@Athias
Your support there reminds me of a certain DDO.... the guy who refused Pastuer's research.... ya know - the germ theory of disease - same vibes-  same lack of substantiation. 
Except it does not lack "substantiation." You're once again criticizing that which you have NOT read. You can avail yourself to the information. Internet sourcing is not a rule for  providing evidence. You can do some honest research rather than parrot some article or blog.
It's very strange to me how eager theweakeredge is to TALK AT ME while SIMULTANEOUSLY BLOCKING ME FROM REPLYING.

Also, this topic doesn't require "scientific evidence" in order to "solve".

NOBODY NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT I LOOK LIKE NAKED.

What is under my clothes is BEYOND YOUR EPISTEMOLOGICAL LIMITS.

You can "guess" all day and all night, but your "guess" is not "SCIENCE".

Nobody should expect to be strip-searched before they're allowed into a public bathroom.
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#55
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@3RU7AL
Um.... funnily enough I actually forgot that I had blocked you - so my bad - second of all.... seriously? that's your substantiation? That's utterly ridiculous - because (guess what) we can actually real neural activity, hormone levels, phenotypical expression, and so on and so forth TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN SOMEONE"S HEAD. You are empirically wrong. Furthermore, you don't like Science at all then, huh? Because that's how the deduction works IN ALL SCENARIOS. Stop coming to conclusions, know your epistemological limits, how could you know whats going on in that petri dish! There's no possible or conceivable way that you could ever unravel what happens in solar systems! Its an impossibility!
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#56
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@3RU7AL
Also.. what the fuck are you talking about? "Strip-searched" that wasn't ever even presented as a thing? Do you actually have ANY idea of what you're talking about? God I hadn't even unblocked you when you wrote this and I already remember why I did it! Because you're one of the most disingenuous people on this website!
#57
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@3RU7AL
Also, this topic doesn't require "scientific evidence" in order to "solve".

NOBODY NEEDS TO KNOW WHAT I LOOK LIKE NAKED.

What is under my clothes is BEYOND YOUR EPISTEMOLOGICAL LIMITS.

You can "guess" all day and all night, but your "guess" is not "SCIENCE".

Nobody should expect to be strip-searched before they're allowed into a public bathroom.
Well stated.

#58
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@Theweakeredge
because (guess what) we can actually real neural activity, hormone levels, phenotypical expression
Just by looking at someone?
#59
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@3RU7AL
Just by looking at someone?
Haha. Wonderful.

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#60
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@3RU7AL
Look at your pedantics. Once you start taking yourself seriously, perhaps I'll respond to your points.