Gender Dysphoria and Mental Illness

Author: Theweakeredge

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So, I'm not trying to say that 90% of people here are transphobic (because I haven't done any quantities and controllable studies into what people think of trans people), but I can say that a good deal of people exhibits implicit transphobia here. Now, I get where people are going to respond to this: "Implicit? Do you mean because we don't want people to be scarred because of 'gender-affirming treatment", or "Don't you see, I just care about these people!" and so on and so forth. 

First of all  - what? Transitioning harms trans people? Sure...:
"We conducted a systematic literature review of all peer-reviewed articles published in English between 1991 and June 2017 that assess the effect of gender transition on transgender well-being. We identified 55 studies that consist of primary research on this topic, of which 51 (93%) found that gender transition improves the overall well-being of transgender people, while 4 (7%) report mixed or null findings. We found no studies concluding that gender transition causes overall harm. As an added resource, we separately include 17 additional studies that consist of literature reviews and practitioner guidelines." [1]

Second of all, and to the actual point, implicitly being bigoted in any regard, is the outcome of a behavior imprinted onto you by society - for example - assuming a black person simply walking alone at night is "suspicious-looking" or supposing that women inherently "love to cook and clean", those sorts of things. Here we see another example of that, presuming that, the reason gender dysphoria is a mental illness, is because a person falsely believes that their gender isn't what they were borne with.

To equate this perception to another mental illness for clarity, people who are depressed have a false sense that they are worthless - and to the people I am referring to (implicitly transphobic people) that is the same sort of false sense that people who have gender dysphoria have, except, no - not quite. Gender dysphoria is not seen as a mental illness of "delusion", but of extreme discomfort. It is the fact that their body does not match up with their gender that causes dysphoria, not the other way around.
"Gender dysphoria is the feeling of discomfort or distress that might occur in people whose gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth or sex-related physical characteristics. Transgender and gender-nonconforming people might experience gender dysphoria at some point in their lives. But not everyone is affected. Some transgender and gender-nonconforming people feel at ease with their bodies, either with or without medical intervention." [2]

You see - gender dysphoria is not inherent to transgender people - the fact that they have a different gender identity is not the necessary cause of this mental illness, it is the discomfort that some feel as a result that their body doesn't match with their gender. For further evidence that the fact that you can't take a DSM to be automatically correct in some of the specifics of its diagnoses (as research is always growing) - let's all recall the DSM's view on homosexuality in edition three, shall we?
"In 1973 homosexuality per se was removed from the DSM-II classification of mental disorders and replaced by the category Sexual Orientation Disturbance. This represented a compromise between the view that preferential homosexuality is invariably a mental disorder and the view that it is merely a normal sexual variant. While the 1973 DSM-II controversy was highly public, more recently a related but less public controversy involved what became the DSM-III category of Ego-dystonic Homosexuality. The author presents the DSM-III controversy and a reformulation of the issues involved in the diagnostic status of homosexuality. He argues that what is at issue is a value judgment about heterosexuality, rather than a factual dispute about homosexuality." [3] 

Please always take the time to go beyond the general description of a diagnosis, especially before applying that to your own, unprofessional, interpretation of what that means for an entire population of people who aren't even necessarily related. 


SOURCES:
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@Theweakeredge.

Notwithstanding uncommon physiological anomalies.

Gender is a distinction defined during foetal development, whereas dysphoria is a post natal, state of mind. 

The question is ...Are gender dysphoric sates of mind an inherited physiological contradiction, or an acquired contradiction.
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-RMM

So... three news sources? Not.. like the 30 or so studies that disagree with you bud? Do you have an actual study that supports your position? Also - hundreds?! Ha - there were less than 30 testimonials. 
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@zedvictor4
Gender identity is inherent - so I suppose you could say that as long as their physiology and gender identity disagreed and they had gender dysphoria that could be "inherent", but it still wouldn't be a delusion on the part of having gender identity. The main point is that gender dysphoria is not caused by someone having a gender identity different from what they were assigned a birth, but from discomfort from that gender assigned at birth. 
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@Theweakeredge
It's not a war, you just think it is. Your OP and your general approach to this presumes either one 100% supports all transitions or one loathes transgenders entirely.

There are middleground approaches.

I, for one, like and respect the trans movement and finding one's true self irrespective of societal norms is very freeing and enlightening indeed. The question is, if gender is a social construct and biological sex has 0% link to gender, why then do people need to take artificial hormones and even permanently scarring operations to their private parts, in order to play the role of the other gender?

Why not just be a masculine female or feminine male or whatever your true self is? Why transition?

I know the answer, my third link explains it quite well; if you surrender to socially constructed genders, you end up feeling you need to force your body to mimic said gender's attached biological sex.

That is the contradiction that drives many trans people to assume they need to alter their bodies in severe ways in order to be the feminine male or masculine female they simply already are. Does it make them happier? Sometimes. Do they deeply regret it? Sometimes.

It's not close-mindedness that drives my perspective, it's the very opposite.
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-RMM
Because that's a strawman.

Like, simple as that. Read my debate with Athais and you'll see what I mean. There IS a link to biology and gender. Its more neurological than biological in general, whenever people say: "Sex is biological" they mean that sex is chromosomal, and because people tend to believe that the mind isn't a part of your biological self. It is. I think anyways. Furthermore, no - I am saying that if you think to be trans you have to have a MENTAL ILLNESS you are transphobic, is that unreasonable? I am not saying you are a hundred percent against or for, I am saying that if you generalize trans people to such an extent you are false and causing them harm, hopefully that makes sense. 

Why not just be a masculine female or feminine male or whatever your true self is? Why transition?
Because that's not what gender identity is - please - understand when I explain this - chromosomes are not what make you who you are - not by sex or gender - and to say that because you are assigned something at birth you inherently are - is to give into the exact people you are fighting against. People have an entire identity which does not conform to the entire concept of masculinity - not just roles of masculinity, but as a concept - same for femininity - there is an experience that every single individual has that marks as either male or female, and that experience is not something other people can determine for you. So there are absolutely people who are just feminine males, or masculine females - but assuming that all trans people just want to be "masculine" or "feminine" is, at its core, not understanding trans people.

TYPICALLY, the studies all agree - preventing transitioning causes massive depression, suicidal ideation, and physical harm to transgender people, To say that it causes "permanent scarring" is quoting the misses and not counting all the hits. 
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@Theweakeredge

Well, the "main point" refers to two instances that stem from a root cause.

Nonetheless this does not address the contradiction that I alluded to.

A.  Physical Gender.....Is defined during pre-natal development 

B. Dysphoria....Manifests during post natal development.

At what point does the mind choose to contradict the physical body?

And more importantly perhaps...why?


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@Theweakeredge
During feminizing hormone therapy, you'll be given medication to block the action of the hormone testosterone. You'll also be given the hormone estrogen to decrease testosterone production and induce feminine secondary sex characteristics. Changes caused by these medications can be temporary or permanent.
Isn't your preception of gender just the amount of testosterone or estrogen your body produces? This is more proof of God's lack of understanding of quality control.
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@FLRW
No - that's my perception of sex. Gender is the neurological connection to your conscious experience and your hormone levels. Sometimes that neurological connection doesn't match what your hormone levels are, so you correct those hormone levels. Its like when your depressed, a lot of times you just need to correct the chemicals which are inducing stress, paranoia, etc. I don't see how any of this ties into a god, I suppose if your hyperfocused on the notion of a "perfect god" but I don't think its a proposition that should even be taken seriously. 

If there was a god they wouldn't be perfect - but I don't think the fact that something isn't perfect evidence that there isn't god - the little attacks you like making are misplaced. Look more into the epistemological idea of god if you truly want to dismiss the notion validly.
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@zedvictor4
And so what is dysphoria develops after natal development? Gender identity forms before Sex, as it kinda has to, that's the only way that any regulation of hormones can be released in the body. What happens is irregular and abundant hormone dumpings, causing someone with a gender identity of say, a girl, to develop male characteristics. It's quite simple. 
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@Theweakeredge
I looked into Religious Epistemology and found:
(1) Belief in God is rational only if there is sufficient evidence for the existence of God. (2) There is not sufficient evidence for the existence of God. (3) Therefore, belief in God is irrational.
Now i don't think a drunk God created Adam. 
Thanks
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@FLRW
Good enough for a passive disbelief in god, I was referring to the idea that god does not exist - as an active claim.
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So, I'm not trying to say that 90% of people here are transphobic (because I haven't done any quantities and controllable studies into what people think of trans people),
You're not going to state it, but you're definitely going to imply it.

but I can say that a good deal of people exhibits implicit transphobia here.
How would you know this? I demand names and receipts.

Second of all, and to the actual point, implicitly being bigoted in any regard, is the outcome of a behavior imprinted onto you by society - for example - assuming a black person simply walking alone at night is "suspicious-looking" or supposing that women inherently "love to cook and clean", those sorts of things.
Once again, who's assuming this? I demand names and receipts. (For this one, I don't actually expect you to provide names or receipts, because it's obvious that you're projecting.)

Here we see another example of that, presuming that, the reason gender dysphoria is a mental illness, is because a person falsely believes that their gender isn't what they were borne with.

To equate this perception to another mental illness for clarity, people who are depressed have a false sense that they are worthless - and to the people I am referring to (implicitly transphobic people) that is the same sort of false sense that people who have gender dysphoria have, except, no - not quite. Gender dysphoria is not seen as a mental illness of "delusion", but of extreme discomfort. It is the fact that their body does not match up with their gender that causes dysphoria, not the other way around.

You see - gender dysphoria is not inherent to transgender people - the fact that they have a different gender identity is not the necessary cause of this mental illness, it is the discomfort that some feel as a result that their body doesn't match with their gender. For further evidence that the fact that you can't take a DSM to be automatically correct in some of the specifics of its diagnoses (as research is always growing) - let's all recall the DSM's view on homosexuality in edition three, shall we?
Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness, it's an abnormality; detractors use "mental illness" as a means to pathologize gender dysphoric behavior. In other words, it's an attempt to substantiate their objections to Gender Dysphoria using "medicine" as a basis. But here's the thing: "mental illness" is not medical. "Mental illness" is a myth. The concept of "illness" in psychiatric lexicon has never been substantiated by medical science, and had been perpetuated by the APA for years. It started with Jean-Martin Charcot, a nineteenth century neurologist, who intended on demonstrating that "hysteria" had a neuropathological basis. He was expediently discredited. As of yet, there hasn't been a  substantiated biochemical, neurological, or genetic basis for that which psychiatrists argue to be "mental illnesses." If you're interested in some reading, I'd recommend Dr. Thomas Szaz's (psychiatrist) Myth of Mental Illness or Dr. David Kaiser's Against Biologic Chemistry. Manufacturing Victims by Dr. Tana Dineen is also good read. Each provide an extended analysis on the field of psychiatry.

Note: the problem with the DSM is that it's conclusions are rendered through peer consensus.

The best method in shutting down these sort of arguments is to understand the premise and the conclusion the rationale communicates and proceed to deconstruct and reduce. I actually argued over this very subject back when I participated in Debate.org.
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@Athias
Could you cite the paper instead of merely suggesting it? I'm not going to research your proof for you - I want you to present it. If I was less busy perhaps I would look into it myself, but I am, and I don't have the time to read an entire book - just give me the evidence and proof that your interpreting it right.
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@Theweakeredge
Could you cite the paper instead of merely suggesting it?
I didn't suggest a paper.

I'm not going to research your proof for you
Here we go: I didn't ask you.

I want you to present it. If I was less busy perhaps I would look into it myself, but I am, and I don't have the time to read an entire book - just give me the evidence and proof that your interpreting it right.
So I suppose that you're not interested in some reading. And I have a correction to make. Dr. Kaiser's book is Against Biologic Psychiatry not Chemistry. My mistake. Suffices to say that there are no links or papers which I'm ready to cite. All the information present is from the books I cited. When the interest finds you, perhaps you can find online transcripts of those books--not that the veracity of "my interpretation" is at all contingent on how much time you have or how busy you are. Either way, avail yourself to my citations at your leisure.
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@Athias
uhuh, and the fact that an author agrees with your conclusion is supposed to do what? There are books against anarchy too Athais. 
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@Theweakeredge
uhuh, and the fact that an author agrees with your conclusion is supposed to do what?
The authors' agreement with "my conclusion" is irrelevant. You're criticizing books you haven't read.

There are books against anarchy too Athais. 
That has nothing to do with anything.

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@Theweakeredge


"And so what is dysphoria develops after natal development?".....Notwithstanding a question mark; is this a question or a statement?....Punctuation is vital.


Taken as a question;  Dysphoria is an acquired state of mind....So my ongoing question, is how does the predetermined entity come to dysphoric conclusions?....As I see it, mind set, is affected by post-natal data input  and management....So are you suggesting that irregular hormone signalling, can affect cognitive development?....If so, then why do we not  balance hormone production in favour of physical identity. Rather than utilising hormone therapy just to alleviate dysphoria...... After all, both are interventive hormone therapies.

Mind, seemingly takes precedence over matter.


"Gender identity forms before sex".....In terms of development, I  would suggest that gender is a primary chromosomic identity which dictates physical development. 


And out of interest...... Do you think that environmental factors could affect hormone production/balance?.....Certainly a factor that might influence the modern proliferation of transsexualism and it's associated dysphoria.
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@zedvictor4
And I see your back to isolating sentences out of context to frame them how you like - good to see that you haven't moved past your own pseudo-intellectual ways Zed. 
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@Theweakeredge.

Pertinent and reasonable questions, relevant to the timeline of physical development from gamete fusion to post natal conditioning, and also the apparent contradiction, that is transsexualism.

In short....The mass dictates, and eventually the mind disagrees....So why?

Your unwillingness to discuss and address reasonable questions, is indicative of something....But I'm no sure what......Maybe just immaturity.....But maybe something deeper than that.


And as ever, your immature jibe "pseudo-intellectual", is easily returnable.
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@zedvictor4
Wrong - I've already answered both questions, but you took my answers out of context to make it seem as if I haven't. Present my answers in a way that lets me know you read them, until then have fun with me dismissing you. 
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@Theweakeredge

Nope, your answers only assuaged your own conscience, and weren't at all cohesive.

In the spirit of debate, I tried to debate......You, seemingly only had a story to tell.

And if only you could dismiss me.









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@zedvictor4
Again - until you answer in a way that shows you actually read it - I will refrain from responding with substance. Ya see - if you don't give me the respect of responding to what I said, I won't either. 
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@Theweakeredge

I responded to everything that you presented, with pertinent questions .

If I had agreed whole heartedly with you, I would have replied appropriately....However, I neither agreed nor disagreed, I simply couldn't make a great deal of sense of it.

Therefore I voiced my concerns and sought clarification from you.

Typically, you responded in an aggrieved manner....Seemingly annoyed that someone should question your opinions.....Certainly not in the spirit of debate.


You are far from being the font of all knowledge....As I am also.
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@zedvictor4
That's not the point - you isolated something from my response, and framed it as if the interpretation from that byte was the intention of my entire response, completely ignoring my actual intention. Not only that, but the questions you asked were ones I quite literally answered in the response itself. So that tells me one of two things; Either A-  you did read it and are purposefully misinterpreting my response, or B- you merely scanned it and came up with an uninformed interpretation. 

See for once I'm giving you the charitable assumption here bud.
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@Theweakeredge

Nope....Just reread everything, and I ask relevant questions.

You might know what you're trying to say, but your narrative is indistinct and incohesive.


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@zedvictor4
In an effort to disway you of your misinterpreted notions I'll repeat myself - comprehensively this time. 


First of all, the first line is a question addressed to you - "So what if dysphoria is developed after natal development?" 

And second because this:
"..So my ongoing question,[1a] is how does the predetermined entity come to dysphoric conclusions?....As I see it, mind set,[1b] is affected by post-natal data input  and management....So are you suggesting that irregular hormone signalling, can affect cognitive development?....[1c]If so, then why do we not  balance hormone production in favour of physical identity. Rather than utilising hormone therapy just to alleviate dysphoria...... After all, both are interventive hormone therapies."
1a - Aside from being a leading question, I've answered it. Multiple times. One's gender identity is not "predetermined" it is merely biologically inherent - there is a difference. Furthermore, it is not as much a conclusion as it is an state of being, which is to say in extreme physical and mental anguish thanks to the discomfort. Again not all trans people deal with this, and the causes of gender dysphoria are entirely based on the individual - it comes down to a subjective reaction from the individual - how do they react to their body not matching their gender identity? That kind of stuff. 

1b - This is what I mean when I say you like to take things out of context -  literally, nothing I've spoken even implies that - because cognition and anguish are not the same thing, and the fact that one happens does not inhibit or prohibit the other - let me ask you a question - how do you believe general anxiety and depression to behave? Its typically through a horrible unbalanced set of chemicals in your brain, similarly, the dimorphism that develops in one's body that does not match their gender identity is a result of unbalanced chemicals, perhaps more correctly stated-misproportioned chemicals. Dysphoria is the reaction to that, not something inherent. 

1c - Because even if your interpretation was correct, you'd still be off base - because gender dysphoria and gender identity are two separate things, you see - if you attempted to try to "fix their identity" then you'd get a situation similar to how we see people in conversion camps have to deal with - that is trying to "fix" your identity, psyche doesn't work like that bud - there's a reason that hormone treatments only balance chemicals, because, fundamentally, you cannot change identity of a mind - that is how you get extreme trauma - furthermore -the mere fact that both work in hormone therapy does not mean that they are equally as effective.... that is quite obvious. 


"Gender identity forms before sex".....In terms of development, I  would suggest that gender is a primary chromosomic identity which dictates physical development. 
You could suggest that, but you'd be wrong. Sex is a chromosomal identity that typically matches gender identity - not always - -but the two are independent of one another, furthermore, much more accurately it works in concurrence with your gender identity to dictate the hormones which actually result in the dimorphism. It has very little to do with chromosomes, as we know by intersex people - it happens that they typically correlate, but that does not mean that they cause one another - correlation is not causation bud. 

This last part is the only one you could say I haven't answered, but you know - I don't figure you actually care. 
"And out of interest...... Do you think that environmental factors could affect hormone production/balance?.....Certainly a factor that might influence the modern proliferation of transsexualism and it's associated dysphoria."
There is no modern "proliferation" it happens that now trans people receive fewer death threats and orders to burn on a stake than they used to - same as gay people - it just happens that society is now much more open and accepting than it used to be. Your entire question is based on a praxis that isn't correct, nor is it well reasoned, certainly, there are environmental factors that affect dysphoria, but hormone levels, that is to a much lesser extent. Gender Dysphoria is not necessarily associated with "transsexualism" and the sooner you realize that the better. 
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@Theweakeredge

1a. If a trait is inherent then it is predetermined.....I only see a semantic difference.
Physical discomfort?....Physical discomfort per se, is typically relative to physical dysfunction.....Nonetheless we will agree that Physical discomfort can also be psychologically assumed. In this instance, arising as a consequence of "gender dysphoria"......"Subjectivity" as you put it.

1b. I've never suggested that cognition and anguish are the same thing..... What I suggested was that anguish is a consequence of the cognitive process, that is to say that anguish/dysphoria is acquired postnatally, through conditioning....... How the endocrine system might affect cognitive development and conditioning is unclear, however I am an advocate for the integrity of the mass.....All affects all.....A sore tooth makes us grumpy, ("dysphoric reaction")....Nonetheless, we remedy the cause and consequently alleviate the effect.

1c. Gender identity and gender dysphoria, are two separate issues.....Dysphoria is dysphoria, a psychological reaction to a discomfort.
Gender identity has come to have two meanings. The predetermined identity of the physical mass and the psychologically assumed identity of the self. Though this only helps to substantiate my assertion that physical identity is primary and inherent, whereas gender dysphoria and it's causes, is acquired and secondary.
So my question, though unwanted was nonetheless pertinent. Why, if the root cause of dysphoria is a chemical imbalance of the physical body, do we not treat as such.

Though if "psyche" doesn't work like that bud, why are you so dismissive of Mr and Mrs P and their acquired psychological condition....Selective PC morality...That's why bud.
Just thought I'd drop that in because the comparisons are obvious. Though you will undoubtedly, never admit it (PC morality or acquired PC dysphoria).

Acquired chromosomal identity and an acquired gender identity are separate issues. One is established within the first two weeks of development, the other occurs postnatally relative to data conditioning and probably either endocrinal function or dysfunction. (Depending on outcome).

Suggesting that it is better that I realise your opinion is correct, is arrogant, but I am prepared to put that down to youthful exuberance. Nonetheless I found it interesting that you only chose to address the word "proliferation".

As you should see, as ever.... On subjects that I do not fully understand and subjects that are not actually fully understood, I do not attempt to make definitive and authoritative decisions. I only draw conclusions based upon limited knowledge....And most of what you deemed to be "out of context", I do in fact agree with....Though we do end up drawing different subjective conclusions.

Nonetheless. I have no personal axe to grind with  Mr and Miss T.....Or perhaps I should say, Persons T.



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@zedvictor4
To clear up -NO - gender identity does not have two different definitions - there are different ways of describing the same thing... ya know for example like: The boots of shiny midnight, and the black boots - you can describe something in multiple ways and be referring to the same thing - there is also a difference between someone identifies their gender identity and what it is fundamentally - it seems to me that you really just want to summon as many misinterpretations as you possible can. This kinda shit is why I don't take you seriously. 

And your whole "predetermined is the same as inherent" yeah - that shows me you know about as much about this as you do pedophilia, that is to say almost nothing. Predetermined and inherent mean two very different things - for something to be predetermined, it is to be decided BEFORE its occurrence, for something to be inherent it must be foundationally true in order for another thing to be true, for example, the game console known as the xbox is inherently an electronic. In contrast, something being predetermined would be like... if a god existed and had already decided who would and wouldn't go to heaven - those two things mean VERY VERY different things, and you just hand waving it away really shows that you really don't want to engage with my arguments, just repeat yourself. 

To answer that question - we do.... do you not know how transitioning works? The physical body is at fault, just like in a case of depression, so we use hormones to correct said physical body, it's not that hard to follow. Yes - psyche doesn't work that way your right - however pedophilia is actually HARMFUL TO OTHERS - because children cannot give consent that would not be coerced, nor are they actually physically mature enough to have any sort of physical relations with any adult - to compare the two is a fallacy of equivocation. 

To say that gender identity is "acquired" is like saying that eyes are acquired, in a manner of speaking your correct, but then every biological component of an individual is acquired, its not a useful distinction - and quite right you are - that is my entire point - chromosomal sex and gender identity are two different things that sometimes happen to correlate. 

All I see here is you trying to make "gotcha's" without actually reading my responses because I repeat myself here-  nor did you actually respond to the last point - because you apparently realize that you were being disingenuous. 
This last part is the only one you could say I haven't answered, but you know - I don't figure you actually care. 
"And out of interest...... Do you think that environmental factors could affect hormone production/balance?.....Certainly a factor that might influence the modern proliferation of transsexualism and it's associated dysphoria."
There is no modern "proliferation" it happens that now trans people receive fewer death threats and orders to burn on a stake than they used to - same as gay people - it just happens that society is now much more open and accepting than it used to be. Your entire question is based on a praxis that isn't correct, nor is it well reasoned, certainly, there are environmental factors that affect dysphoria, but hormone levels, that is to a much lesser extent. Gender Dysphoria is not necessarily associated with "transsexualism" and the sooner you realize that the better. 

So - a deal then - you actually engage with what I'm saying, actually substantiate yourself, or - no more substantive responses, because you are wasting my time.