Fairy Tail Mafia DP1

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#301
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@Lunatic

We should be lynching Earth because he is scum, not for information. What information are you looking for specifically?
The longer we leave steamrolling with bandwagons to blackmail outs, the longer Mafia has to construct efficient fakeclaims as well as emotionally prepare for the L-1 situation emotionally.

This is stupid for town to sit back and allow. We have right now outed 2 huge PRs and a miller, in worst case scenario (and I think it is).
#302
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@Lunatic
If earth was really the miller don't you find it odd he didn't SOP claim it? Earth may not have a ton of experience, but he's played in a few games. Enough to know that players here generally consider it meta to claim. You don't find it fishy that he waits to claim it after a "guilty" is found on him?
What is fishy for me isn't fishy for someone else. Earth is lazy as fuck each and every game I've ever seen him play, he does this 'idgaf' vibe act regardless of alignment. It's 100% nullreadable and I have a huge, huge scumread on Coal he has responded to game pressure in ways town never should in all scenarios.
#303
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Lunatic is a hard TR for me, his reads and their logic aren't how to read him, in my opinion, it's how he reacts to people. He becomes hostile when he feels town is doing shit and he is town, it's a simple tell he rarely over-acts as scum from what I've seen.
#304
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@RationalMadman
The longer we leave steamrolling with bandwagons to blackmail outs, the longer Mafia has to construct efficient fakeclaims as well as emotionally prepare for the L-1 situation emotionally.
If you are worried about fake claims what is your propsed solution? You already stated you didn't want a mass claim.

This is stupid for town to sit back and allow. We have right now outed 2 huge PRs and a miller, in worst case scenario (and I think it is).

Right, so if you don't want a mass claim, what information are you seeking, since as you've aptly pointed out, plenty of information has already been ousted?

What is fishy for me isn't fishy for someone else. Earth is lazy as fuck each and every game I've ever seen him play, he does this 'idgaf' vibe act regardless of alignment. It's 100% nullreadable and I have a huge, huge scumread on Coal he has responded to game pressure in ways town never should in all scenarios.
There's more to the Earth read than the "IDGAF" vibe. It was how his reaction to pressure and a "cop result" was to instantly claim miller. Convienently. 
#305
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@Lunatic
If you are worried about fake claims what is your propsed solution? You already stated you didn't want a mass claim.
That has completely and utterly changed post-cop-cc-fiasco

The claiming must be orderly, one by one though. There's a reasoning behind the order, Whiteflame must be forced to out at exactly position 5-6, it is the most difficult position to conveniently fakeclaim in, we have 3 outs so far. I want Coal to be out #4. I have town vibes from Pie while you don't because you have a concept of him that isn't true.

Pie is arrogant regardless of alignment but it is indeed true that there's a rage in him as town that so far hasn't properly come out to play, we will see. Anger-aside he's played his town meta completely this game, totally aiming for 'duh' votes.
#306
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@RationalMadman
That has completely and utterly changed post-cop-cc-fiasco
Judging by reactions, you may be the only person who views this as a "fiasco" lol. I am still not entirely sure you understood what happened. 

The claiming must be orderly, one by one though. There's a reasoning behind the order, Whiteflame must be forced to out at exactly position 5-6, it is the most difficult position to conveniently fakeclaim in, we have 3 outs so far. I want Coal to be out #4. I have town vibes from Pie while you don't because you have a concept of him that isn't true.
To be fair, I genuinely believe that your analysis on coal is tainted by confirmation bias. You've had a hard on him since page 1 and have sought out every excuse to further that scum read. I don't see you being open about his alignment at all. Pie is much easier to read. 

Pie is arrogant regardless of alignment but it is indeed true that there's a rage in him as town that so far hasn't properly come out to play, we will see. Anger-aside he's played his town meta completely this game, totally aiming for 'duh' votes.
I don't think you fully understand what pie's meta's are, nor have you played with him as much as I have. I specifically brought up an example where pie's behavior was very similar to how it is now with drafters game. Check out some of his scum games (heavy hitters is a good one to reference since it was so recent). His play style seems very similar. 
#307
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@Lunatic
I am extremely good at masking my thought process, the confirmation bias is not that hard to pull off.

I also pull off the 'OMG RM  you flipflop so much' in other games too (both work best when I have a solid PR claim to back myself up with when the pressure builds).

I didn't hard scumread Coal when I said I did, I did suspect it, his reactions since then have been terrible. I explained it in the post just before you said you're on graveyard shift. He has responded to the game in ways no towny who is experienced would.

The only person who is town who reacts to pressure and scenarios like Coal is someone who doesn't give a fuck or is new in a casual sense of 'new' (not nooby who is trying). He slides into the background only when the cop cc happens and literally says he will not lynch the miller after he outs.

Then, suddenly out of nowhere, he does lynch Earth and wants me lynched too.

He bleeds scum in all ways, show me anything from him that isn't masked fluff and even masked OMGUS.
#308
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@Lunatic
I think we need a VC. I might have been hammered but whatever.

I already said that I was going to claim miller early on. I clearly didn't expect a daycop. I was somewhat busy when FT's cop'd me, so I came back to getting a guilty.
#309
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@Earth
You are only allowed to talk about this game inside this forum thread.
#310
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@RationalMadman
"Terrible reactions" is kind of a broad statement. His idea of how to play is different than yours; I get that. Someone isn't scum just because the things they say aren't agreeable. Scum coal is the coal that seemingly isn't scum hunting and is tunnel vision on one prospect or another. This is the coal that will town read you for agreeing with him and scum read you for opposing him. He gets very defensive as scum and tries to makes big analogous posts to drown you out in hopes people will dismiss your argument against him. 

If you get a chance, read through lucky's "themeless" mafia dp1 for a good example of how coal plays when scum: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4218-themeless-mafia-1-day-phase-1

He continues on for the rest of the game in the same style. He was scum in overwatch mafia on DDO, where his behavior was basically the same. Go look at any Coal scum game and any coal town game. In my opinion, he is extremely easy to read. Nothing about his behavior here indicates he is scum. 

Now read through his posts here; He's asking questions, not jumping to conclusions, not making grandious statements, and being generally manipulative. He is posting about a third of what he would normally post as scum. Even his post 133 where he defends your behavior by pointing out that you think you are scum hunting, etc. Prior to your claim he shows hesitancy to lynch you when that could have been a rather easy wagon to jump on. 

Ultimately he's been back and forthing with oro is top scum read for the entire day phase, yet does the wise thing and votes earth instead of tunneling that (and I am pretty certain earth will flip scum at this point, which will make Coal look way better). 

Ultimately after playing plenty of live mafia with Coal recently and many forum games, I think this Coal is pretty townie. I am not sure how much you have actually played with him, but I think you need to be a little more open minded and weigh all the facts here. At the very least go through some of his scum and town games and see if you notice any obvious differences in his playstyle. 
#311
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@Lunatic
Scum coal is the coal that seemingly isn't scum hunting and is tunnel vision on one prospect or another. This is the coal that will town read you for agreeing with him and scum read you for opposing him. He gets very defensive as scum and tries to makes big analogous posts to drown you out in hopes people will dismiss your argument against him. 
I love this, genuinely. Now, seriously no sarcasm intended, reread this game only with Coal's interactions in your mind's focus.

You just narrated his gameplay this game.
#312
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@Lunatic
He never defended me this entire game, he sarcastically mocked and berated me until finally going 'wanna lynch RM' to whiteflame and almost making it happen.
#313
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@Earth
I already said that I was going to claim miller early on. I clearly didn't expect a daycop. I was somewhat busy when FT's cop'd me, so I came back to getting a guilty.
You don't oust miller in fear of being reported by a fellow townie. Town don't fear town. It's the reason that it's pretty SOP to claim miller at the start. Lately since millers are used so often they are pretty town read early on. Claiming after you get copped makes it look that much more sus. 
#314
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@Lunatic
Idc if this is buddying but I will word what he wrote in clearer sequencing:

  1. He assumed the earliest he could be investigated was N1
  2. He would only truly need to out (in his opinion) before N1 if at all (he has a laidback approach to it) and was indeed intending to out regardless.
  3. The day cop threw his timing completely.
#315
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@RationalMadman
Scum coal is the coal that seemingly isn't scum hunting and is tunnel vision on one prospect or another. This is the coal that will town read you for agreeing with him and scum read you for opposing him. He gets very defensive as scum and tries to makes big analogous posts to drown you out in hopes people will dismiss your argument against him. 
I love this, genuinely. Now, seriously no sarcasm intended, reread this game only with Coal's interactions in your mind's focus.

You just narrated his gameplay this game.

That really hasn't been how he's played this game. Again read themeless. Dude OMGUS'ed my for 4 day phases and stopped trying to actually prettend to scum read. The fact that he is voting earth even after his back and forth with oro is a prime example of how he isn't doing this.

He never defended me this entire game, he sarcastically mocked and berated me until finally going 'wanna lynch RM' to whiteflame and almost making it happen.
"Mocking and berating" don't detract from the fact that Coal actually pointed out that your behavior was a town tell when FourTrouble brought it up with him that he sus'ed you. He defended the idea that you might be town, whilst doing it. Being offended by Coal doesn't mean he is scum. But if it were, why do you town read me after I called your CC play "downie" and not coal? Again confirmation bias.

I am going to assume you didn't actaully bother trying to read through the games I mentioned and you already have your mind made up. You are more guilty of Coal of the thing you are accusing him for ironically. 
#316
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@Lunatic
literally what am I to do when guilty'd as miller?
#317
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@Lunatic
Scum coal is the coal that seemingly isn't scum hunting and is tunnel vision on one prospect or another.
Had I not stepped in (yes, I take credit for this) and also had FT not began his machine-gun-pressure scheme starting with Pie and Oromagi but focusing more on Pie, the game would have begun centred around Coal tunneling Oromagi (he really did try to keep it that way).

This is the coal that will town read you for agreeing with him
Who has agreed with Coal this game that he's not townread and been buddy-buddy with? The millisecond Oromagi made clear he didn't list Coal as a scumread, suddenly Coal laid off, passively requesting reads from him. FT was laid out the red carpet for by him until the claim as cop (and even then he maintained an ironclad townread on FT).

and scum read you for opposing him.
Fascinating. Who has opposed him this game? Me. Who did he suddenly feel the need to lynch Earth for buddying? Me. 
He gets very defensive as scum and tries to makes big analogous posts to drown you out in hopes people will dismiss your argument against him. 
He doesn't need to do that, in his mind it's simpler to go 'haha that chitty chatty RM, someone shut him up' and hope his lockerroom banter style will get enough 'hehe we got ya back bud' from players like whiteflame and yourself. Guess it works.

#318
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@Earth
literally what am I to do when guilty'd as miller?
You claim miller before you are investigated. 
#319
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@RationalMadman
Idc if this is buddying but I will word what he wrote in clearer sequencing:
Down doesn't need to worry how they appear if they are actually town.

He assumed the earliest he could be investigated was N1
SOP is to claim miller within your first couple of posts. It would have been suspicious even if he had claimed it after pressure or close to dp1 end. 

He would only truly need to out (in his opinion) before N1 if at all (he has a laidback approach to it) and was indeed intending to out regardless.
Why? Also how would you know his intentions?

The day cop threw his timing completely.
Which is precisely why it is SOP to claim miller ASAP. 



#320
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@Lunatic
Town doesn't need to worry how they appear if they are actually town.
Of course they do, towntelling is a necessary skill regardless of alignment.
#321
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@RationalMadman
Scum coal is the coal that seemingly isn't scum hunting and is tunnel vision on one prospect or another.
Had I not stepped in (yes, I take credit for this) and also had FT not began his machine-gun-pressure scheme starting with Pie and Oromagi but focusing more on Pie, the game would have begun centred around Coal tunneling Oromagi (he really did try to keep it that way).

A two person dialogue isn't the sole focus of the phase lol. 

This is the coal that will town read you for agreeing with him
Who has agreed with Coal this game that he's not townread and been buddy-buddy with? The millisecond Oromagi made clear he didn't list Coal as a scumread, suddenly Coal laid off, passively requesting reads from him. FT was laid out the red carpet for by him until the claim as cop (and even then he maintained an ironclad townread on FT).
"passively requesting reads" what? Pretty sure that was the issue from the start, is that coal felt oro wasn't making a clear stance on his reads. I mean he isn't wrong. It's just something I've come to expect from oro, especially after the last game where he wanted to end the day phase with a vtnl on page 3 lol. 

and scum read you for opposing him.
Fascinating. Who has opposed him this game? Me. Who did he suddenly feel the need to lynch Earth for buddying? Me. 
So why didn't he vote you? Why didn't he vote you earlier? You've been tunneling him the whole game. See my point?

He gets very defensive as scum and tries to makes big analogous posts to drown you out in hopes people will dismiss your argument against him. 
He doesn't need to do that, in his mind it's simpler to go 'haha that chitty chatty RM, someone shut him up' and hope his lockerroom banter style will get enough 'hehe we got ya back bud' from players like whiteflame and yourself. Guess it works.
I don't see how you can effectively scum hunt if your too busy being personally offended and basing your reads off of who offended you, or referencing some jock mentality. Your victim mentality is at play here, and it will be a weakness in mafia if you keep it up. In mafia if you are town you have to be the hunter not the prey. 
#322
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@Lunatic
SOP is to claim miller within your first couple of posts. It would have been suspicious even if he had claimed it after pressure or close to dp1 end. 
He knows and doesn't care, it would seem. To be fair, 'couple' is 2 and it was literally the guy's second post all game.

He would only truly need to out (in his opinion) before N1 if at all (he has a laidback approach to it) and was indeed intending to out regardless.
Why? Also how would you know his intentions?
To answer both at once, it's clear from his explanations (he explained it before not just now to you) that he had in mind a plan to out as miller later into D1, that is his presented justification. I am letting you know what precisely he's saying as it's clear you misunderstood it at first and assumed he was trying to 'hold onto the claim' as long as possible in his stated reasoning.
The day cop threw his timing completely.
Which is precisely why it is SOP to claim miller ASAP. 
To this, I do not argue whatsoever. He should have outed on his first post. He chose not to. This was an error that costs town a significant PR move if the PR is real (I do think it's real because of theme reasons and I'm beginning to understand the theme if all three of us are town, but don't want to state to help Mafia fakeclaim). I did a bit of research on the Anime to get the gist of characters. I must emphasise 'bit of' I do not know enough and what the 'guild' is or isn't still perplexes me.
#323
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@RationalMadman
Town doesn't need to worry how they appear if they are actually town.
Of course they do, towntelling is a necessary skill regardless of alignment.

No way. Worrying about how you will appear or look is a classic scum tell. If you are town and you know you are town, you are going to keep up the pressure and keep trying to find things that stick out to you. Mafia already have inside information, they know who is who. Their only job is to try to blend in, so they are more prone to to care about keeping up appearances. 

Basically if you are town and you know you are town there is nothing to hide. Espicially with a cop claim. Not saying any of this to indicate I think you are scum, just pointing out that it is redudant as town to try to explain away buddying. 
#324
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@Lunatic
I feel like you are lynching me more for bad play more than anything.
#325
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@Lunatic
So why didn't he vote you?
He knows I will not take it like a bitch, it's also why he didn't pick me to start off with. (assuming he is scum that is and that therefore he knows I am town, to make clear to you what framework I'm answering in)

He also began to PR-read my aggression, I am fairly sure because he merely appealed to my ego calling my contribution garbage and stuff rather than fighting back as he knew I wouldn't lay off if he did (or he assumed, since I may have townread his aggression for all he really knew but as you said that's not his meta to incorporate).

If I lost the situation, got lynched, he is inevitable out next and he doesn't want that.

Why didn't he vote you earlier? 
Now, I'm confused, this is the same as the last question. He right now suggested to Whiteflame to bandwagon me and genuinely meant it so if you meant 'now' in your first question he only went silent when I made good posts he doesn't have anything to say back to. He's hoping I dig myself a hole somehow or the day drags on enough.

You've been tunneling him the whole game. See my point?
Is this about my meta or his? I have hardclaimed a very significant character and role, neither of which have a challenge so far. If you are trying to say his meta is my meta and we work the same way, I'm very confused.
#326
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@Lunatic
Basically if you are town and you know you are town there is nothing to hide. Espicially with a cop claim. Not saying any of this to indicate I think you are scum, just pointing out that it is redudant as town to try to explain away buddying. 
I am the cop claim. I am indirectly CC'd at this point and no cop will confirm me. Even if they did, why would I want to scumtell for a cop to waste an investigation on me if I wasn't cop (I am, I'm working with your hypothetical to how a town vanilla or doc or something thinks).

I always observe how my actions will be perceived in mafia, not saying I'm innately talented at it, it takes a lot of refinement but to not pay attention at all because 'hurrr durr I'm town if you lynch me I will flip town and if you investigate me I will appear town so I can be as scummy as I want' is a caveman mentality that fucks towns over.
#327
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@RationalMadman
SOP is to claim miller within your first couple of posts. It would have been suspicious even if he had claimed it after pressure or close to dp1 end. 
He knows and doesn't care, it would seem. To be fair, 'couple' is 2 and it was literally the guy's second post all game.
So if he knows it's the meta why wouldn't that bother you that he didn't care about following it until it was convienent!? 

There was  hour, and 3 pages of posts Between post 144 and 214 (his first and second post).

He would only truly need to out (in his opinion) before N1 if at all (he has a laidback approach to it) and was indeed intending to out regardless.
Why? Also how would you know his intentions?
To answer both at once, it's clear from his explanations (he explained it before not just now to you) that he had in mind a plan to out as miller later into D1, that is his presented justification. I am letting you know what precisely he's saying as it's clear you misunderstood it at first and assumed he was trying to 'hold onto the claim' as long as possible in his stated reasoning.
I understand his arugment perfectly but it doesn't exonerate him. Also you are kind of admitting confirmation bias here, as you defended him for this before even he made this statement. 

Which is precisely why it is SOP to claim miller ASAP. 
To this, I do not argue whatsoever. He should have outed on his first post. He chose not to. This was an error that costs town a significant PR move if the PR is real (I do think it's real because of theme reasons and I'm beginning to understand the theme if all three of us are town, but don't want to state to help Mafia fakeclaim). I did a bit of research on the Anime to get the gist of characters. I must emphasise 'bit of' I do not know enough and what the 'guild' is or isn't still perplexes me.
So you agree that he didn't follow SOP, significantly hurt the town by doing so, and want to give him a free pass for it. Got it. 
#328
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@Lunatic
Of course I want to give him a free pass for it if he's town? Shit town should be hardcarried by brilliant town, not punished in a suicidal manner.
#329
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@RationalMadman
I am the cop claim. I am indirectly CC'd at this point and no cop will confirm me. Even if they did, why would I want to scumtell for a cop to waste an investigation on me if I wasn't cop (I am, I'm working with your hypothetical to how a town vanilla or doc or something thinks).

I always observe how my actions will be perceived in mafia, not saying I'm innately talented at it, it takes a lot of refinement but to not pay attention at all because 'hurrr durr I'm town if you lynch me I will flip town and if you investigate me I will appear town so I can be as scummy as I want' is a caveman mentality that fucks towns over.
None of this really adresses my point about how if you know your town wasting words worrying about how others percieve you demonstrates that you are not actually scum hunting. 
#330
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@RationalMadman
Of course I want to give him a free pass for it if he's town? Shit town should be hardcarried by brilliant town, not punished in a suicidal manner.
You going to apply this logic anytime someone scum slips for the rest of the game?