What causes politics?

Author: thett3

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#211
zedvictor4
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@Tarik
With me schooling your behind.  

So you think.

And you and me thinking is it's own evidence.....All subjective Mr T......As ever Mr T.



And a plethora of indirect messaging in that last post Mr T.....What's was on your mind when you wrote that?
#212
Tarik
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@zedvictor4
What's was on your mind when you wrote that?
All the other times I schooled your behind on this exact subject, it’s not our first rodeo zed.
#213
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@Tarik
In your dreams big boy.
#214
Tarik
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@zedvictor4
In your dreams big boy.
I don’t need to dream reality, go look at back at all our other previous convos and how they ended for reference if your memory’s a little hazy.
#215
sadolite
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What is universally accepted as being objectively  wrong by every person on earth? You cant say anything is objectively wrong if everyone doesn't agree. The ends to a means is what people look for. How you get there can be objectively wrong: For example: if you want to confiscate guns from everyone it would be objectively wrong to legalize all gun ownership.  There are no end game objective truths. In my opinion.

9 days later

#216
Tejretics
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@thett3
I joined DDO as somewhat of a libertarian in 2015. I then became a proper libertarian (though not a minarchist or ancap or anything). Then became a socialist and anarchosyndicalist. Then became – I guess – a “neoliberal” or “cosmopolitan liberal” or “radical centrist” or whatever you’d call a combination of free markets, globalization, redistribution, and social liberty/egalitarianism. Mostly, these shifts just happened based on the people I was talking to at different points of time (DDO had a pretty significant role here), as well as the things I chose to read. 

Admittedly, all these massive shifts happened from the age of 13 to 19, so perhaps my political opinions were much easier to change/I was much more impressionable. But yeah, I don’t really have a meta-level theory of my political views. Have traversed all sorts of places in the political spectrum. 
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#217
thett3
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@Tejretics
Good to hear from you. I was also a libertarian during my teenage years. No offense to adult libertarians but it does seem like as an ideology it appeals to teenagers who are just beginning to think about politics. Maybe because on a surface level it does challenge some orthodoxies as some economics stuff is pretty counter intuitive (like price gouging being a good thing) but is overall a pretty shallow and immature ideology (imo)

I was kind of hinting at it but I think what really causes political orientation a lot of times is the insane culture war America is engaged in, and has been for some time. As someone from India it makes sense that you wouldn’t have a deep seated affiliation with any particular US “tribe” and are capable of just thinking about the issue and coming to your conclusion.

Unfortunately I don’t know enough about Indian politics or culture to speculate on something you might have a pre-rational affiliation with but something is probably present in a comparable way to politics in the US. So much of the discourse in the US is just coded language for “fuck the red tribe, we are the best!” and Vice versa.  Personally I think the decline of religiosity and strong local community along with the gradual centralization of power has forced people to care more about national level politics but that’s just my pet theory 

When you say you’re for redistribution what do you mean by that? A global wealth tax or what? 

Also how have you been doing 
#218
Tejretics
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@thett3
When you say you’re for redistribution what do you mean by that? A global wealth tax or what? 
Oh, by “redistribution,” I just mean progressive taxes and social programs for the poor. Not a global wealth tax or anything (I think wealth taxes in general are a bad idea, see Larry Summers’s critique here). 

Maybe because on a surface level it does challenge some orthodoxies as some economics stuff is pretty counter intuitive (like price gouging being a good thing) but is overall a pretty shallow and immature ideology (imo)
I think that’s reasonable when applied to the views of the Libertarian Party in the US, minarchism and ancap, Ayn Rand, the Chicago School, and so on. However, I think some variants of libertarianism – like what Tyler Cowen calls state-capacity libertarianism – are potentially reasonable, though I disagree with them. 

I was kind of hinting at it but I think what really causes political orientation a lot of times is the insane culture war America is engaged in, and has been for some time. As someone from India it makes sense that you wouldn’t have a deep seated affiliation with any particular US “tribe” and are capable of just thinking about the issue and coming to your conclusion.
That makes sense. There's definitely political tribalism in India – and I’m pretty firmly opposed to the current Indian government, which I guess you could call tribalist, though I’m open to admitting that the opposition is weak and scattered – but there’s many political parties, a much larger fraction of swing voters, and a lot of regional diversity in politics, so perhaps it’s more muted. 

Also how have you been doing 
I’ve been good! I’m currently on a gap year and am heading to college later this year. How have you been? :)
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#219
thett3
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@Tejretics
That makes sense. There's definitely political tribalism in India – and I’m pretty firmly opposed to the current Indian government, which I guess you could call tribalist, though I’m open to admitting that the opposition is weak and scattered – but there’s many political parties, a much larger fraction of swing voters, and a lot of regional diversity in politics, so perhaps it’s more muted. 
America would probably have a lot of parties too if it was a parliamentary democracy like India, but the US system basically ensures that only two major parties will ever exist

I’ve been good! I’m currently on a gap year and am heading to college later this year. How have you been? :)
What are you majoring in? You picked a good year to take as a gap..

I am good. Got married last year, career is going well…things are looking up for the most part 
#220
Tejretics
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@thett3
What are you majoring in? You picked a good year to take as a gap..
I’m planning to double-major in math and economics. Yeah, online school seems to have not gone well for a lot of friends...

I am good. Got married last year, career is going well…things are looking up for the most part 
That’s really great to hear! Congratulations on getting married. :)
#221
bmdrocks21
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@Tejretics
or whatever you’d call a combination of free markets, globalization, redistribution, and social liberty/egalitarianism
I'd call that "wrong" :P

I joined DDO as somewhat of a libertarian in 2015. I then became a proper libertarian (though not a minarchist or ancap or anything). Then became a socialist and anarchosyndicalist. Then became – I guess – a “neoliberal” or “cosmopolitan liberal”
Lol, I feel like we all go through crazy journeys. (At least us kids that get into politics) But we all seem to end up in some fairly coherent ideology, with our own little modifications.

Cutting out the meme ideologies, I essentially went from libertarian to moderate conservative to a socially far-right, ultra-nationalist, protectionist, capitalist. (Essentially the complete opposite of you)

Don't know much about you, but I remember you being a good debater. How have you been?
#222
Tejretics
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@bmdrocks21
Cutting out the meme ideologies, I essentially went from libertarian to moderate conservative to a socially far-right, ultra-nationalist, protectionist, capitalist. (Essentially the complete opposite of you)
At least we agree that capitalism is good, if nothing else!

Don't know much about you, but I remember you being a good debater. How have you been?
I’ve been good! I’m sorry, I don’t recognize your username – did you have a different one on DDO?
#223
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@Tejretics
I’ve been good! I’m sorry, I don’t recognize your username – did you have a different one on DDO?

I had the same username. I unfortunately came to DDO right around the time of its death. Forums were already being filled with jibberish messages that I think were ads.

I remember you from this site about a year ago. Didn't interact much but I saw some of your forum posts and debates.

At least we agree that capitalism is good, if nothing else!

People that aren't these days are generally historically illiterate lol.
#224
Wylted
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@thett3
I know a lot of liberalism can be traced to a type of inferiority complex. I for one grew up in a liberal family and realized the premises for our beliefs were shit. I remember the moment I turned conservative. It was after finished reading "arguing with idiots" by Gkenn Beck. The book destroyed every liberal premise my family taught me. Before that book I was always reading michael Moore and other people who form the core of current liberal ideology 
#225
RationalMadman
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@thett3
Teens tend to identify, politically, as one of the following:

  • Anarchists
  • Libertarians
  • Socialists
  • "Fuck politics it's a Scam"
  • "Screw politics, both Wings are corrupt but Anarchy is silly so I'm a Centrist"

So, I agree in part. Libertarianism suddenly seems sophisticated amongst teens since the political-ideological stances they have to compare to it are often extremely impractical and lacking depth, only Socialism actually can realistically hold up.
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#226
thett3
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@RationalMadman
Yes, I think really what happens as a teenager is that you realize how flawed and incompetent adults are but you aren’t mature enough to realize that you probably wouldn’t do that much better. The system is so obviously flawed, surely it isn’t the best we can do. Radical change is needed. Then as you grow you get into positions with even a modicum of responsibility and find that you’re making the same mistakes your elders did.

And as you get older and take in more information you do eventually get wiser to the flaws of whatever your ideal system is 
#227
Unpopular
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@thett3
Politics is based on whatever makes someone feel good about themselves.  If you are lgbt or poc, and you feel supported or included by the left because they put up signs for you, then even if some of their policies are not great or they have used you as political pawns you are still going to associate them with making you feel supported. 

If you live in rural America, even if Republican politicians have continuously chosen to reward the elites over you, but they are the ones vocally glorifying your love of guns and Jesus, then you are going to stick with them because they make you feel supported. 

It is about groupthink but that goes back to what makes people feel good about themselves. That's why you are more likely to see poc in rural areas support Trump, because their peers in the community support Trump and it makes them feel good to be included by them (especially if they already stand out).  If you are white and privileged living in some $500,000 condo, it might make you feel good to think supporting leftist causes somehow alleviates you of any other moral responsibility.

I think your politics can change when the other side makes you feel better about yourself in some way.  "You're not the problem, they're the problem."