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@Tarik
Don’t ask me the same question twice.
Twice and thrice and as many times as it takes to get you to engage the ACTUAL discussion.
Necessary evils
Posts
Total:
691
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@secularmerlin
Believing in hell or being a nihilist is a FAKSE DICHOTOMY a black and white fallacy. A logical error in your argument.
And so is lying on my behalf, I never said that those who don’t believe in hell are nihilists.
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@Tarik
I never said that those who don’t believe in hell are nihilists.
Then nihilism is an excuse not a reason. Stop making excuses and tell me the REASON.
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@secularmerlin
No stupid, it’s entirely possible for me to acknowledge that not all believers are nihilists and have nihilism (or lack thereof) as the foundation for my faith, the two aren’t mutually exclusive. And last time I checked excuses can be reasons, for example if a child doesn’t go to school, a good excuse is because they’re physically ill with COVID-19, it’s a good reason as well.
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@Tarik
Lack of nihilism = lack of lack of belief in meaning.
Double negatives are grammatically oxymoronic. The lack of nihilism is a meaningless term. That just means you believe something it doesn't have to be your beliefs. Since dropping your beliefs doesn't have to end in nihilism nihilism isn't why you keep them.
Stop making excuses.
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@secularmerlin
The lack of nihilism is a meaningless term. That just means you believe something it doesn't have to be your beliefs.
You just contradicted yourself by calling something meaningless and in the next breath explaining its meaning.
Since dropping your beliefs doesn't have to end in nihilism nihilism isn't why you keep them.
Just because dropping a belief doesn’t necessitate a certain result doesn’t mean that certain result can’t be a reason as to why I picked the belief up, your inability to understand that is a you problem.
Not excuses just facts.
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@Tarik
You just contradicted yourself by calling something meaningless and in the next breath explaining its meaning.
Yeah double negatives cancel themselves out. That is the flaw in your argument. I'm pointing it out to you. Glad you spotted that.
Just because dropping a belief doesn’t necessitate a certain result doesn’t mean that certain result can’t be a reason as to why I picked the belief up,
It does if you CHOOSE what you believe. If you CHOOSE what to believe you could just as easily CHOOSE to believe hell is fictional and also not have a total lack of beliefs. You are being arbitrary. IF the problem with my beliefs is that they are arbitrary THEN we share the same problem.
Why do you CHOOSE to ARBITRARILY believe in a place that is INDISTINGUISHABLE from fictional?
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@secularmerlin
Yeah double negatives cancel themselves out. That is the flaw in your argument. I'm pointing it out to you. Glad you spotted that.
Which was my intention considering I’m a believer, that’s not a flaw it’s the truth. You on the other hand contradicted yourself within a separate manner, don’t conflate that with me you hypocrite.
It does if you CHOOSE what you believe.
No it doesn’t, you really thought you were doing something with whatever that was did you?
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@Tarik
Which was my intention considering I’m a believer, that’s not a flaw it’s the truth.
What are you talking about? It is your language we are discussing. I think nihilist is a useless term since neither of us is a nihilist. Nihilism tells us diddley bubkus about anything we are ACTUALLY discussing. It is BESIDES THE POINT.
IF lots of people who aren't nihilists don't believe in hell THEN believing in hell has not a damn thing to do with nihilism and it is not a part of the discussion of why you believe.
Stop making excuses.
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@Tarik
Why not just believe something else? Does it matter which comfortable and uncomplicated fiction you believe in?
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@secularmerlin
I think nihilist is a useless term since neither of us is a nihilist.
It’s useful because I used it as a foundation for my faith.
IF lots of people who aren't nihilists don't believe in hell THEN believing in hell has not a damn thing to do with nihilism and it is not a part of the discussion of why you believe.Stop making excuses.
I addressed this stupid argument already, try again.
Why not just believe something else?
Like what?
Does it matter which comfortable and uncomplicated fiction you believe in?
Really? You’re resorting back to this, clearly you got nothing left in the tank, get some sleep dude your gonna need it.
As a (mostly) utilitarian, I would consider a necessary evil to be something that has a negative utility in a vacuum, but either facilitates a numerically greater positive utility or at least is the least negative possible outcome.
I'm not reading through 21 pages, so if someone said something similar, that's my bad.
An example of this in my opinion would be an abortion. The potential for life (an therefore moral value) in a human fetus is nonzero, so killing one has negative utility. However, the pain, physically or mentally, that a woman wishing to undergo an abortion is likely to go through if forced to carry a child to term is much worse.
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@Tarik
Nope.
Information is information.
Though formatively we have greater ability to absorb and store data, and there is often also a greater pressure to absorb and store specific data. It's like being programmed with specific software.
As we get older, we increasingly have less capacity for storage and recall..... And also place less significance on new data, in terms of internal decision making.....And unlike a computer, we do not simply uninstall and re-programme.
Hence why I think like me, and Tarik thinks like Tarik.....Same organic operating mechanism, different programme of information.
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@zedvictor4
So humans aren’t capable of thinking for themselves, they don’t have minds of their own? I strongly disagree, especially since I know of the contrary, there’s been numerous times people rebelled against the teachings of their parents or society due to there independent thinking and realization that a lot that was taught to them was bulljive.
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@Tarik
I think nihilist is a useless term since neither of us is a nihilist.It’s useful because I used it as a foundation for my faith.
Nihilism cannot be the foundation for ANY faith. Faith and nihilism are like water and oil they just WILL NOT mix. Try again.
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@secularmerlin
Why do you have faith? You certainly don't have evidence.
Faith by definition does not require evidence. People believe things based on experience. Like knowing a spouse loves you. Experiences says you can trust this so you have faith in that person. I know most atheist think because they don't have a spiritual experience they must not exist but they do in enough people to produce various religions around the world.
-->@Polytheist-Witch
Believing based on faith is indistinguishable from your case is so weak it isn't even enough to convince you and subsequently imagining that you are correct in place 9f knowing you are correct.
Believing based on faith is indistinguishable from your case is so weak it isn't even enough to convince you and subsequently imagining that you are correct in place 9f knowing you are correct.
Like knowing a spouse
First you have to know there is a spouse. Why believe a supernatural being does or cares about anything before you even have evidence of anything supernatural?
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@secularmerlin
Faith and nihilism are like water and oil they just WILL NOT mix.
Perhaps I should’ve been more clear (although after all this time I thought you knew what I meant) my reasons for rejecting of nihilism is the foundation for my faith. On a different note since your so hell bent son rejecting my nihilism answer as if you know me better than myself, I guess you don’t need to ask any further questions, in fact how about you tell me why I have faith?
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@Tarik
My point is you don't have to believe in hell to reject not believing in anything which is a double negative which cancels itself and what you are really doing is believing in some stuff rather than no stuff.
If your entire goal is just to believe in SOMETHING why believe in your specific thing? Can't you believe absolutely anything you want on faith?
It's like you are saying you chose an oldsmobile instead of a Kia because you don't like to walk. In neither case are you a nihilist so why are the specifics important? Why not just believe in the bhuda and nirvana?
Try to answer my actual questions instead of some tangential factors that are BESIDES THE POINT.
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@secularmerlin
Believing based on faith is indistinguishable from your case is so weak it isn't even enough to convince you and subsequently imagining that you are correct in place 9f knowing you are correct.
It's not a court hearing. I am not making a case for you to believe. I simply try to explain why I do. In a trial if the person doesn't admit to something we are all guessing at what they may or may not have done. Evidence may pull you in one direction. My personal experience does that to my faith.
First you have to know there is a spouse. Why believe a supernatural being does or cares about anything before you even have evidence of anything supernatural?
Again it's all based on personal experience. Most people go looking for "god" our of some pull in the first place. This may be due to an incident, occurrence or just a feeling. At some point they experience something that says it's more concrete then "god just exists" or they would still be looking or have given up. Though unlike some religious I don't think anyone needs a god or gods to have a spirit that never cease to exist to your not believing isn't the issue. It's the refusal to think theists are being honest because you have no personal reference.
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@Tarik
So humans aren't capable of thinking for themselves.
So, when did I say that?
People function independently, so therefore think for themselves....In so much as they process acquired and stored data (think) as an individual.
I was referring to the information that we store and how it is acquired and stored, and how typically we utilise our formative programming as the basis of how we conduct our future lives.
That is not to say that people are not able to formulate new ideas....We obviously make new decisions, and vary our behaviour, especially if we consider it beneficial to our well being.
I think therefore I am.....How many times have I said that?
-->@Polytheist-Witch
I know it is all just feelings and speculations but speculating about the possible motives of a person you KNOW EXISTS is very different from ASCRIBING ATTRIBUTES to something which is unobservable and which cannot be measured or quantified.
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@secularmerlin
First, sorry you were on block I am trying to remove all those and missed you. Second, theists don't see a difference in a real person and a god. They are as real as anyone else. Which is where the circle starts and why the argument never ends. I can't make you get it cause you haven't experienced it.
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@Polytheist-Witch
They are as real as anyone else.
Except that they cannot be reliably detected through sight, hearing, touch, taste or smell. That they produce no heat signature and do not occupy space. That they cannot be photographed and their voices cannot be recorded. Except for actually being real in the way everyone else is they are as real as everyone else.
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@Polytheist-Witch
First, sorry you were on block
Don't worry about it. This isn't an emotional issue for me.
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@secularmerlin
I get it. I know it makes no sense to you. I can't make it make sense it just is.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I am perfectly willing to believe that you believe. I am willing to accept your sincerity at face value. From an outside perspective it is still indistinguishable from someone who was arguing ironically, say a pastafarian. In all fairness I must take them equally at their word until they make it clear they are being ironic.
Pastafarians must be granted protective legislation equal to that of other more accepted mainstream religions... or other religions should have as few. As an outlier in the theistic community I'm sure you cam at least sympathize with this sentiment even if you don't agree.
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@secularmerlin
Pastafarians must be granted protective legislation equal to that of other more accepted mainstream religions... or other religions should have as few. As an outlier in the theistic community I'm sure you cam at least sympathize with this sentiment even if you don't agree.
I believe when forcing the issue in courts they have been, same as Satanist and Scientologist.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If only there were some way of reliably separating con men who are intentionally fleecing their own congregation from those who sincerely believe their own ungrounded claims and also incidentally profit by fleecing them.