AFSFSM

Author: secularmerlin

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#31
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
By definition it doesn't matter to my argument at all.
Then why’d you say “The dead do not concern themselves with morality or anything else as far as I know.”
This IS the reason it doesn't matter to my argument. Morality only concerns the living as far as I know. The moment you die it stops being a concern for you.
Are you seriously suggesting that all or even most organisms commit suicide as opposed to literally any other cause of death?
No but for arguments sake how can you ignore them?
IF you don't wish to stay alive THEN as soon as you facilitate not being alive morality stops being a concern for you. Those who successfully commit suicide become dead and as previously discussed the dead are uninvolved in this equation. 
#32
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@secularmerlin
This IS the reason it doesn't matter to my argument.
Then your argument is unresponsive to the question "why be moral if the universe doesn't care?" especially if it’s coming from a place of planning to commit suicide.
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#33
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@Tarik
Actually my argument is unresponsive to the question "why be moral if the universe doesn't care?" ONLY if it’s coming from a place of planning to commit suicide or of already being dead. 

IF you are planning any self harm THEN please seek professional help. 

IF you are not planning any self harm THEN  the A.F.S.F.S.M. applies to you.
#34
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@secularmerlin
ONLY
So what other place can it come from because that argument isn’t responsive either way.
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#35
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@Tarik
So what other place can it come from 
From the place of literally any organisms that strive to survive. 
#36
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@secularmerlin
literally any organisms that strive to survive wouldn’t reasonably ask "why be moral if the universe doesn't care?"
#37
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@Tarik
Lastly what does A.F.S.F.S.M. stand for anyway?
I can see why you believe in God. 

The argument from selfishness for secular morality (or A.F.S.F.S.M.) 

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#38
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@Tarik
literally any organisms that strive to survive wouldn’t reasonably ask "why be moral if the universe doesn't care?"
Not explicitly no but if they could and if they did then the A.F.S.F.S.M. applies and indeed it applies implicitly even if the question is not asked.
#39
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@FLRW
I can see why you believe in God. 
Then why don’t you?
#40
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@Tarik
DNA evidence has long suggested that apes and Old World monkeys diverged from a common ancestor between 25 million and 30 million years ago. I would guess that morals deveoped in animal brains that led to animals that were kind to it's species having numerous offspring and animals that killed or scared off most members of it's species died before they had offspring. You can see moral behavior in your pets today. So animals that developed self preserving morals became the dominating species over those that did not.
#41
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@secularmerlin
but if they could and if they did
There’s no but they can’t and they don’t because A.F.S.F.S.M. doesn’t tell them anything that they don’t already know.
#42
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@FLRW
So animals that developed self preserving morals became the dominating species over those that did not.
...So what?
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#43
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@Tarik
A.F.S.F.S.M. doesn’t tell them anything that they don’t already know.
Great. Glad we agree.
#44
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@secularmerlin
I think the structure is fine, it's something I've thought myself, to the extreme that I think a person should try to find ways to 'drastically extend their lifespan using technology.
Often interests are divorced from 'considering the idea of continuing them though, as much as some people like pleasure, if they wanted to maximize their pleasure they'd practice drugs, ease, and fast food in moderation, but often do not.
If they wanted to maximize their time and interests while alive, they'd stay in physical and mental health by exercise of both the mind and body, but often do not.

People 'would care to continue doing things, but also would care not to bother thinking and working at self care to greater or lesser extents.

Sure, it's logical to care for others. Though sometimes that care is that a man feels towards his chicken or cow, care until one slaughters and eats it. It's not care equivocal to the care one shows themself, though some people philosophy/religion argue for such.
#45
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@secularmerlin
So the point of this forum is to tell the users something they already know? Why stop here why not make another forum talking about the sky being blue?
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#46
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@Tarik
sky being blue?
The sky is not always blue. 
#47
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@secularmerlin
...Really? The point is there’s a bunch of obvious observations you could’ve made a forum on yet you chose this one why?

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#48
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@Tarik
In a word because. I don't know if you are aware of this but I usually enjoy these discussions this is at least in 0art recreational for me.
#49
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@secularmerlin
But it’s not really a subject you can discuss at length though, because it’s so obvious.

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#50
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@Tarik
But it’s not really a subject you can discuss at length though, because it’s so obvious.
50th post.
#51
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@secularmerlin
Yeah a lot of them being me noting how obvious this forum is, anybody can make a lot of posts on a forum, that doesn’t mean a lot more can be said on the subject that hasn’t already been said or known.
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#52
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@Tarik
Ok. So basically it is super obvious that ae should all observe secular morality. Good talk. If you have no further insights then...
#53
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@secularmerlin
Why do you call survival “secular morality”?
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#54
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@Tarik
You misunderstand. Survival is not secular morality. The desire to survive is reason enough to observe secular morality. 
#55
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@secularmerlin
Then for the second time, what is secular morality? Because the first time I asked you defined it as just that (or something along those lines).
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#56
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@Tarik
Caring for and about others.
#57
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@secularmerlin
And what’s selfish about that?
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#58
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@Tarik
Caring for and about each other = the behaviors humans agree to in order to facilitate the cooperation necessary for mutual survival. 
#59
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@secularmerlin
I reiterate what’s selfish about that?
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#60
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@Tarik
In typical paradoxical human fashion it can be viewed as either selfless or selfish to care for and about others. If you are ONLY doing it for your own benefit (self care through the care of others) that is by definition selfish. 

The point is that whether you are selfish or selfless there is still a plausible logical reason to observe secular morality. Simply being alive and not wanting to die is reason enough all by itself.