School systems should include LBTQ+ topics in their history and sex education

Author: Theweakeredge

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@zedvictor4
Homonym: a word that sounds the same or is spelled the same as another word but has a different meaning:

And if I type in "Bark" to the searth window, here's what I get:


the hard outer covering of a tree
the loudrough noise that a dog and some other animals make

Its almost like, just because the same page lists two different meanings of a word, that doesn't necessarily mean they are related - because if two words are spelled EXACTLY THE SAME, then they are the same word except for the meaning - which is the difference between Bark and bark and Queer and queer. You are not only trolling, you are trying to disguise your homophobia, which frustrates me enough to be spiteful.


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@Theweakeredge
I don't advocate for abstinence only education, but I would advocate for abstinence recommended education.  If you have uncontrollable urges to have sex, then make sure your treated of all STIs that you have, make sure your partner is treated as well, make sure that your partner is using the birth control pill, make sure that you are using a condom, make sure you keep your clothes on when your laying with your partner, and your good to go I think.
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@Theweakeredge

Now who's trolling?...With their unfounded and crass allegations.


Nonetheless:

Type in Bark and you get Bark and Bark

Type in Queer and you only get Queer.


It was not me who introduced LBGTQ into the discussion forum....And initially  I only referred to P as possibly falling  within the Q category

Though if you were as old as me you would clearly remember that not that very long ago, G was also generally regarded as Q.

Pointing out facts and highlighting contradictions in PC ideology in the context of a discussion forum, does not make one a homophobe.


Your immaturity maybe something of a frustration, but I do not do spiteful.....Children do spiteful.


And I reiterate....If you do not wish to discuss with me, then ignore me...As the saying goes , ignorance is bliss.
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@zedvictor4
Whenever you are wrong enough I stop caring about ignorance. I typed in bark - and I got both definitions, and when I typed in queer, I got both definitions - you have literally no idea what you're talking about. And yes, trying to peddle in pedophilia as a gender-sexual orientation is homophobia, pedophilia has to do with being attracted to young people, not gnder - the LGBTQIA+ is an acronym for gender identity and attractions - pedophilia does not fit inside of that category. I have already explained this, but you ignored that, just like you ignored the last rebuttal. You have literally zero proof to back up your assertions and you continue to assert them, as you always do. Then you have the gall to call me crass? I'm sorry I like my assertions to be substantiated, unlike yourself.
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@Theweakeredge.

Well, firstly use your dictionary and look up homophobia. And you will find that your contention and accusation, is wholly inappropriate and unwarranted.

Secondly, I know that I am correct concerning homonyms and the definition of Q, and also concerning Q's historical relationship to G....Enough said.

Also... L nor G nor B,  like P are not primarily about gender identity (if at all), but are obviously primarily about attraction relative to sexual desires.

Only T is primarily about psychological and physiological dilemmas regarding an individuals sexual identity.


I contend that LGB (T) (Q) etc.... Represents a PC movement, whose aims are a moral and legal justification of an individuals right to choose how they behave sexually, relative to attraction.

I would also contend therefore, that T is a wholly separate issue. Based upon the reasons I gave above.

Further.... Fundamentally P is no different to LGB....Attraction relative to sexual desires, where all protagonists have a gender identity established at birth.

The current  social and moral abhorrence of P is a separate issue altogether...And rightly so.


So finally, with regard to sex education...I would suggest that "school systems" should only include HLGB. 

T should be considered, but within a different subject area...And Q should be ditched altogether.


And you seemingly, still find it impossible to ignore me.

And also continue to ignore H.

Maybe you are heterophobic.

47 days later

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@Theweakeredge
I just ask why these topics should be included in the curriculum. We don't teach kids about Christians being crucified for their beliefs in ancient Rome or by Islamist extremist today. If you wanna define mean comments as "persecution" I still don't get why LGBT is any different from other minorities. I think LGBT people are far down on the list of groups that need more acceptance and understanding from society. Especially since they even have their own parades, where non-LGBT people participate. 

My answer, as of right now, is no.

Those arguing that children need to learn their expression can teach children about their sexual theories AFTER they leave school and are ready to make their own judgements.
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@Benjamin
Theories? These things are scientifically authenticated, rigorously tested and demonstrated, people seem to not know - if there was any community that want debunk it's own work - it would be the science community. Typically, if they have all of the evidence, and its accepted by the consensus, its true. My point is that people should be getting comprehensive sex education, and that includes: If you don't feel any sexual desires towards others, if your gender identity doesn't match your assigned gender, if you don't have heterosexual feelings - you do realize that a direct cause of LGBTQ oppression is because a lot of people don't understand them right? 

None of these are "theories", not even in the scientific framework, that would be extrapolating general principles and coming to a conclusion based on evidence - these are just the principles themselves. Should they be taught these people were, and are, being oppressed? Absolutely, you realize it was only a century ago that homosexuals were hung at stake right? You realize that it was less than a decade ago that gay people couldn't even marry? You do realize that gay people are still regularly discriminated against in the job and education field? You do realize that trans people receiving hormone blockers can have them removed from their parents?

These people are still oppressed. And a large portion of it is because people don't understand them.
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@Theweakeredge
Theories? These things are scientifically authenticated, rigorously tested and demonstrated
Exactly.


 that would be extrapolating general principles and coming to a conclusion based on evidence - these are just the principles themselves
What principles? Have anyone created a set of principles describing how sexuality works? Can anyone say with any certainty that a given baby will be gay? If not, you are not talking about principles, but simply mere facts, graphs and studies. This doesn't automatically translate into one group being right in their sexual philosophy and doesn't justify any group getting their views into the curriculum. If you mean that schools should merely show kids the graphs and studies and facts collected by science and explain possible interpretations, I am ok with that. But don't tell me that "LBTQ+ topics" are to be treated as scientific principles. Please show me a source, at least, so I can properly analyse your claim.


These people are still oppressed.
Oppression 1a: unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power

These people aren't being oppressed in the classical meaning of the word. If you talk about broken relationships and "hidden" mockery of LGBT people then that is a whole other issue. I still have not gotten an answer as to why other persecuted groups aren't equally as important.
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@Benjamin
Um - so you would say not being allowed to be married (something guaranteed to every citizen of the majority age) isn't an unjust exercise of authority? Would you say that discriminating against gay people because of something that they can't control is not an "unjust exercise of authority"? Both are in my book - and both most definitely fit the definition of oppressed you've provided.

Furthermore, we are not talking about the specific identity of any individual, we are discussing the broad range of sexual and gender identities - these are scientific principles - the mere fact that we do not know 100% of the cause of such things does not make them "not" scientific principles, for example, we do not know why atoms whose electrons orbit in a singular direction emit a magnetic field, but we know that this property of magnetism is a scientific principle

You have a tendency of making non-sequiturs
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@Theweakeredge
both most definitely fit the definition of oppressed you've provided.
10 years ago gay people were oppressed, I know that. I know that gays in modern history were an oppressed group. However, the same can be said of other groups. Please provide me with an example of real-time oppression of gay people, and I will fully support your condemnation of that. Just as you do I hate to see discrimination and mockery of individuals, so I also condemn breaking relationships with a gay person. But I have yet to see evidence of oppression. I do not believe such practises to still be upheld in law.


we are discussing the broad range of sexual and gender identities - these are scientific principles -
I see you using the words "gender" and "identity", neither of which describe scientific facts, but actually subjective experience and social constructs. If what you are referring to has any scientific merit, please post a link to a scientific source for me to analyse.


the mere fact that we do not know 100% of the cause of such things does not make them "not" scientific principles
I didn't ask for a rebuttal. I asked "What principles? ". I am curious as to what answer you can give. I am not against science, I simply want the word "scientific" to actually have its original meaning. For you to claim that something is a scientific principle, you must provide some kind of evidence or explanation as to what principle you are talking about and why it is worthy of the exclusive label "scientific". 


Recall:
"you are not talking about principles, but simply mere facts, graphs and studies"

I am not being unreasonable.

I simply want to know the difference between the sexual philosophy of the LGBT community and the "scientific principle" you mentioned.



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@Benjamin
From a study in 2019:
"Through an analysis of 2015 survey data of a representative sample of more than 300,000 federal employees in 28 agencies, we identify widespread informal workplace experience inequalities: LGBT workers fare worse than do their non-LGBT colleagues in the same organizations on measures of perceived treatment, workplace fairness, and job satisfaction. Beyond analyzing broad LGBT workplace experience inequalities, we argue that these LGBT biases do not operate uniformly across the LGBT population or across organizations.1 Past work demonstrates that the meanings attached to sexuality differ by racial identity (Pedulla 2014) and take on distinct characteristics in different occupational settings (Tilcsik, Anteby, and Knight 2015). Consistent with our predictions, we find that informal workplace inequalities are intersectional: LGBT status beliefs are racialized and gendered in ways that exaggerate these processes for LGBT-identifying women and people of color."

A meta-review of other studies:
"Low-income LGBT individuals and same-sex/gender couples have been found more likely to receive cash assistance and food stamps benefits compared to heterosexual individuals or couples.
  • Among women 18-44 years of age, 29 percent of bisexual women and 23 percent of lesbians are living in poverty, compared to 21 percent of their heterosexual counterparts.
  • 20 percent of gay men and 25 percent of bisexual men 18-44 years of age are living at or below the federal level of poverty, compared to 15 percent of heterosexual men.
  • A study of transgender adults in the United States found that participants were nearly 4 times more likely to have a household income of less than $10,000 per year compared to the general population"

And another statistical study:
"We started by combining all transgender people and lesbian and bisexual women (or gay and bisexualmen) into one category and compared them to cis-straight women (or cis-straight men). In Model 1for women in Appendix Table 3, being lesbian, bisexual, or transgender has an odds ratio of 1.17,showing that being a lesbian or bisexual woman or a transgender person made it more likely tobe poor after holding constant age, race, language, urbanicity, disability, education, marital status,employment status, health, children, and year of the survey."
Overwhelmingly, LGBT people are treated unequally, and discrimination is the direct cause of such inequity - I don't need to cite a single example, I can cite multiple studies backing up my claims - I don't deal in anecdotes.

Furthermore, the principle of "gender and sexual identity" has been an intrinsically psychological and neurological - a scientific fact- for a long time. The individual experience of such are subjective, yes, but the general idea of gender and sexual identity is scientific. For example, the individual experience of pain is subjective, but the general principle is scientific. The principle of gender and sexual identity - those are the principles
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@Theweakeredge
 the principle of "gender and sexual identity" has been an intrinsically psychological and neurological - a scientific fact- for a long time
Yes, the state of your mind is in the brain. If you are gay, that identity lies within your brain. The same argument could be made for any preference being a scientific fact.

Your sources only prove what we already knew, that discrimination against LGBT is a fact. It doesn't prove that oppression of LGBT people is a fact.

I get your point, although you are mistakingly exaggerating the problem through your choice of words.

How do you translate that into the need for LGBT topics being taught in schools.
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@Benjamin
The discrimination against LGBT people IS the oppression
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@Theweakeredge
Discrimination isn't the same as oppression. Those words aren't synonymous. However, I still get your point.
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@Theweakeredge
No - I think we should leave this topic to parents. 
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@Benjamin
You are right they aren't always synonymous, but in this case, it is oppression, at least by your definition of oppression
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@Timid8967
Why? Do you want to leave history to parents? Or Science? 
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@Benjamin
I am curious - how do you think that LGBT people being disproportionately, killed, hired for jobs, in poverty, etc, "an exaggeration" whenever it is caused by authorities using their powers unjustly? Because that is the precise definition of oppression you gave me. 

Furthermore, my point is that by the new generation understanding these people more, understanding that the dogma they learn about them is false, the more likely the are to not oppress them. You treat people differently, because you, typically, feel they are different from you, that can be mitigated by fighting ignorance. 
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@Theweakeredge
Why? Do you want to leave history to parents? Or Science? 
What is with the false dichotomy? 

I just don't think it is the government's responsibility to teach history to children. I never suggested that history should not be taught. Nor that science ought not be taught. 

Education is and should be the domain of the parent, not the government.  

How the parents want their children to be educated is a matter for the family, not the government.  Even in a public school system, given that it is parents who pay for it out of their taxes, they ought to maintain this right.   Parents are not anti-science.  
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@Timid8967
Um, but parents are not professionals of science, the majority of US citizens can't name the three branches of government, much less teach their kids. It doesn't really matter if the parents are against or for science, its the fact that parents aren't qualified to teach any of this stuff. School needs to be mandatory in order to educate the population, your suggestion would only segregate those who are more educated from those who are less, making the gap wider instead of closing it. You should not have a right to take away an education from your child. 
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@Theweakeredge
Well if that is the case - then the professionals are pretty lousy at their jobs. And it is even more reason for parents to take control of the educational system. 
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@Timid8967
Care to substantiate that? Let's say I accept your assertion - that teachers are inept (in most if not all teaching circumstances) - then that means parents are even more inept. Its not about if your students retain the knowledge per se - because teachers are literally taught how to make knowledge stick and parents have literally no idea, the general population would retain even less of their education - but they also have no idea what they're talking about in most cases. Neither of my parents have a clue how to factor conic sections, or solve for the direction of a magnetic field, how to write a thesis, or anything remotely advanced - because a lot of people do retain stuff they learn, but that doesn't mean that they should teach it - because a lot of people don't know how to teach, or are incredibly biased, or incredibly bad at teaching.
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@Theweakeredge
Care to substantiate that? Let's say I accept your assertion - that teachers are inept (in most if not all teaching circumstances) - then that means parents are even more inept. Its not about if your students retain the knowledge per se - because teachers are literally taught how to make knowledge stick and parents have literally no idea, the general population would retain even less of their education - but they also have no idea what they're talking about in most cases. Neither of my parents have a clue how to factor conic sections, or solve for the direction of a magnetic field, how to write a thesis, or anything remotely advanced - because a lot of people do retain stuff they learn, but that doesn't mean that they should teach it - because a lot of people don't know how to teach, or are incredibly biased, or incredibly bad at teaching.
If teachers are taught how to make knowledge stick, then why is it according to you that most parents are unable to retain knowledge? 

Every parent teaches their children prior to that child going to school.  Do they all do it well? Of course not. But many teachers are pretty inept. That is why there are so many problems in our society. 

It is incorrect to say that parents are more inept than teachers.  You have no evidence to support such a conclusion - just an inference based on your own bias.  

Governments are also not teachers.  Yet their educational ministers prescribe curriculum - even though they do not have the appropriate skills to do so.  

Education has levels. Most people do not need to know advanced educational levels.  Who cares about the magnetic field? Most people do not need to write a thesis. There are very few people who need to know that. Parents, unlike the government, want the very best for their individual children. Governments just want to win enough votes to stay in power. They don't have any real interest in ensuring good education occurs.   Yes, a certain standard of education increases wealth in a society . But not every student wants to be an astronaut or computer expert. Your topic is about LBTQ+ topics history and sex education. 

That is a topic - that belongs in the family dynamic. I do not want teachers with their own agendas teaching my children such stuff.  I want to do that at the appropriate time, when I think that they are ready for it.  not just because they turn 10 years of age.  

Parent's taking control of a kid's education by the way does not imply home school, but includes private educational institutions who employ and engage professional teachers . Yet it is the parent's along with others who manage the affairs of the school. 

Your position does not seem to allow you to consider anything but state regulated education.  I am for the abolition of all public educational institutions.  Kids need to read and to write and to count.  I think that their family ought to be able to determine the history they learn.  Professionals tend to teach biased history from a new perspective.  It is typically poorly researched and has underlying objectives which tend towards a Marxist view of history.  In other words, it is anti-white, it is anti- capitaist, it is anti- religion, it is anti- colonial, it is not just a filling out of history including other perspectives - that I would have no issue with at all. In fact - we teach our children a fuller history - of every background.  But we do not simply rewrite history to the detriment of our past.  

What is teaching - what is education? I say it is about learning life in all of its multi-colored tapestry.  It is not about cutting out an entire culture and generation just because we want to be politically correct.  LBTQ+ topics and its current history does that.  And why should I not be able to give my children a fuller understanding of these things from the perspective of life - not just a biased teacher. 
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@Athias
pedophilia, 11-14 is hebephilia, and 15-19 ephebophilia.

Generally, yes.  But the distinctions focus more on physical/sexual maturity state more than age.  

Pedophillia is being sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children, without regard to gender.

Hebephilia is being sexually attracted to children who are at or near the point of reaching sexual maturity. 

Ephebophilia is being sexually attracted to post-pubescent children who are not fully physically mature/developed. 
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@Theweakeredge
Should they or shouldn't they? Curious what we have as opinions. I'll jump in once I get a few responses.

Yes.  Generally, I think people talk about sex more than they should; but the history of gay rights is a part of American history.  And it's a complicated one. 

As for sex ed, I cannot see how the world is better off where LGBT sex ed is omitted from regular sex-ed.  That being said, the amount of trans kids concerns me and it is not at all obvious that we're not making the same mistakes with the (pseudo)science justifying it that was used to justify lobotomies, castrations and electroshock "therapy" to gay men and lesbians less than 40 years ago in some parts of the country.  As a country, we've seen this movie before.  It's moral panic, wearing different clothes.
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I fail to see how trans-gender individuals receiving gender-affirming treatment is "pseudo-science", the science is rigorous behind gender identity. It's not that there are more trans people, its that if trans people come out they aren't hung. We saw a similar thing with the statistics for gay and bisexual people a couple of years ago, its merely the fact that people are accepting that trans people exist now.

Except some people aren't - because let's just say it together now - gender identity is neurologically sound science that determines an emergent property of the psychological properties of your brain. 
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@Theweakeredge
I fail to see how trans-gender individuals receiving gender-affirming treatment is "pseudo-science", the science is rigorous behind gender identity. It's not that there are more trans people, its that if trans people come out they aren't hung. We saw a similar thing with the statistics for gay and bisexual people a couple of years ago, its merely the fact that people are accepting that trans people exist now.
The "science" behind "gender-identity" is very, very weak.  In the United States, most of it is an offshoot of research that was done at Johns Hopkins back in the 1960s-70s, which none regard with any credibility now.   Douglass Murray's "Madness of Crowds" does a very good job explaining the history, relevant to that specific issue.  

But the bigger issue is with psychiatry, as a practice.  Psychiatry functions by defining "abnormality" or "deviance" against some non-specific norm that, more often than not, turns out to be normative, subjective moralization dressed in the language of ostensible scientific inquiry.  Foucault was really the first, at least before the behavioral revolution (a move in social science and psychology in the 1960s-70s to focus on that which was empirically true according to sound scientific inquiry, and against all else).  He is largely responsible for why, for example, the DSM-IV did not regard homosexuality as a psychological disorder but prior versions did.  

Foucault's points are more complicated than I care to type for the moment, though maybe we can talk about it on Discord at some point in the future.  But for our purposes now, the issue is that science cannot tell us what constitutes a subjective interpretation of behavior that conforms or does not conform with what is, in the final analysis, little more than gendered stereotypes.  Yet, this is the beginning and end of what the "science" on "gender identity" is.  The very concept itself does not even lend itself to empirically measurable criteria.

So this places us in the epistemological domain where were trying to figure out what is true based on individual's subjective reports of what they say their "gender identity" is.  And so fine.  But, as you noted (correctly) the sociocultural turn towards embracing something does invariably lead to a whole bunch of people wanting to jump on the bandwagon.  In social science and/or psychology/psychiatry, we call this a "cascading" effect or "snowballing," in lay terms.  And just as many of the kids/teens/young adults who "came out" around the early 2000s-2010s, turned out NOT to be gay in the end; we should have every reason to expect that at least a non-trivial percentage of "trans" people in that same category in the 2020s are going to realize at some point in time that, in fact, they are not "trans."

There are already early signs of this, although the magnitude of the problem is largely under-reported.  No shortage of horror stories give life to the horrifying data behind namely those young to adolescent boys and girls who underwent one or more of the so called "hormone therapies" or "reassignment surgeries," for the purpose of curing their self-diagnosed "gender dysphoria."  I forget his name.  But there was a Ph.D. in psychology from Northwestern that did his dissertation on this in 2017 or 2018.  

The major concern here is that if you come out as gay, but later change your mind, the risk is fairly low.  At least biologically.  But if you undergo puberty blocking pharmacological "treatments" or hormone replacements (which are, if you were curious, the same drugs used to chemically castrate pedophiles and gay men for many years, like Depo Provera), the impact on a non-fully developed body's biological process is irreversible.  That means if the girl who flirts with the idea of being a boy decides to take testosterone, she will be infertile.  As will the boy who decides to take estrogen or other similar HRT-like products.  Moreover, there is absolutely no evidence of any clinical benefit to any of that.  The post-use rates of suicidal behavior and ideation are horrifying; you're far more likely to contemplate and act upon the urge to kill yourself after taking HRT-type drugs, than before --- in direct contravention of the claims made by ideologically possessed fake experts.  

Read Madness of Crowds' chapter on this subject.  And then I've got some more reading material for you on psychology, generally.  We will then see if that changes your mind.  

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@Theweakeredge
Discrimination: prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment

Oppressionunjust or cruel exercise of authority or power

Your sources document discrimination, not oppression. The only actual oppression mentioned by you is the laws restricting sexual freedom -- the laws that were removed. So no, LGBT people aren't being pressed. They are being discriminated against. These two things mean completely different things. Oppression can happen to the majority,  discrimination can't. Oppression requires authority or force, discrimination only requires majority support within a group, no matter the size. 


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@coal
See - that's the thing here - you are false - none of this is where I get my data or my research for gender identity. I get my evidence from hard correlative neurological studies. Largely, the male and female brain are the same, the differences are extremely minute - yet - given the small differences that we do see - transgender men have the same differences in the brain that cis-men do, and vica-verca for transgender women. Furthermore, the mere fact that something is an internally subjective experience does not mean that the principle is inherently unscientific or unquantifiable.

For example, pain, a largely subjective experience that can be quantified largely due to how often we talk about pain. The identification that happens is indeed internal, and dependent on a human's subjective brain, but the actual process of your internal gender identity is an objective process of brain chemistry, and as we study more and more into this, we only get more and more evidence. Psychiatry discussing inherently "subjective" processes is not an issue, especially not whenever those processes have objective foundations. 

Never, did I say that it was a "bandwagon" I said: and I quote:
" It's not that there are more trans people, its that if trans people come out they aren't hung"
You have either not read this line, or completely misinterpreted it. It is not that more people are "jumping on the bandwagon" its that it is more and more acceptable to be trans, so the trans people who already exist are reporting themselves as trans for the first time. You see - you do not "choose" you gender identity - just like you do not choose your sexual orientation. The mere fact that the actual identification is "subjective" takes nothing away from these scientific principles - all experience is subjective  - the act of quantifying our experiences is what makes them "objective"  -  so epistemologically speaking - you have exact same problem for everything - its just that we can relate a lot of those other things in ways that are "less subjective", though what is considered subjective is, ironically enough, extremely subjective. 

Benjamin
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@Theweakeredge
Let me get this straight:

There has been and still is a negative attitude towards LGBT people, resulting in maltreatment of them by society at large. This group is being treated as moral wrongdoers because people have a moral standard deeming LGBT as morally wrong. You are of the opinion that morality is subjective, and I mostly agree. Would you say that the moral standard of the past was objectively wrong? Was their treatment of LGBT people a moral wrongdoing? Are abandoning your position of morality as subjective in favour of objective morality? If you don't, then the maltreatment of LGBT people in the past was not morally wrong, because the moral standard was different at that time.

Regardless of how you answer this question, we still have the issue of today.

We know that moral standards are changing, and we see that society changes its laws and attitudes towards LGBT. What you are saying is that schools ought to forcefully accelerate this change in moral standards by teaching "LGBT issues" to children. If you are backing this claim by moral duty, then you are necessarily asserting an objective moral standard.


I fail to see how your sources describe scientific principles. They are merely statistical studies of social issues, not anything like magnetism or another scientific principle.

Your argument regarding neurology doesn't prove that LGBT issues specifically are a scientific principle, just that personality is a scientific and biological principle.