Obama was among the best presidents in US history

Author: RationalMadman

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Dr.Franklin
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@Greyparrot
The American Dream was that you had the freedom to contribute to society in any way you chose without the government stopping you. That you could own and manage your private property without government interference.
nope, it wasn't. Government having more power means absolutely nothing. It was the dream that everybody can get a lively community, family, property, etc. What killed this dream wasn't some 30's court case that gave the government more power, it was a combination of poor fiscal policy, societal decline, and preying transnational corporations who shipped oversees.

In fact, little government influence to help solve the REAL economic problems like outsourcing is why it's dead, not that the government had more power.

America wasn't founded on the idea of small government. The government had more power back then than it does now! It was founded on liberty, the right to self-govern. 
Death23
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@Dr.Franklin
I also want to know how they came to that conclusion in the study
It's not really that complicated. They don't have insurance because they can't afford the premiums. What happens to you when you need vascular surgery or cancer treatment and you're poor without insurance? You don't get treatment, and then you may die for lack thereof. That there would be disparities in health care outcomes in states where the poor get insurance and those states where the poor don't get insurance shouldn't be unexpected.
Dr.Franklin
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@Death23
yeah ok i don't believe it, obama had the opioid crisis under his watch killing hundreds of thousands
Death23
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@Dr.Franklin
i don't believe it
Your belief formation process sucks because you believe whatever you feel like believing and evidence carries little weight.

bmdrocks21
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Nobody drone struck children quite as well as good ol' Barrack.
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@Death23
the study is lying, plain and simple, Obamacare created more deaths-https://reason.com/2018/12/27/it-sure-looks-like-this-obamacare-progra/


Death23
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@Dr.Franklin
HRRP implementation was not significantly associated with an increase in mortality within 45 days of admission, relative to pre-HRRP trends.
That’s what the cited study says. (HRRP is the Obamacare thing) BTW no claimed impact in number of lives and this particular facet of Obamacare is low impact  and I don’t have an opinion on it.
Greyparrot
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The data suggest that both groups are equally compassionate, but feelings take a back seat to actual policies. GoP is generally opposed to social services for the poor and those policies have consequences, as my source has shown.

And yet, California has been the leader of inequality with the highest rates of poverty and homelessness to GDP ratios in the nation for over 50 years. All run and managed by the most left political cartel with zero opposition.

I guess you could say the left "loves their poor" so much that they want to make more of them.
Greyparrot
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@Dr.Franklin
The government had more power back then than it does now!

haha okay.


Everything Madison worried about and tried to prevent is now our political reality.

James Madison (1751-1836) in The Federalist (1788) Essay 62 outlines some of the "mischievous effects of a mutable government" which constantly changes the law to suit its own needs or the needs of its supporters:

The internal effects of a mutable policy are still more calamitous. It poisons the blessings of liberty itself. It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood: if they be repealed or revised before they are promulg[at]ed, or undergo such incessant changes, that no man who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow.

Liberty Fund has an excellent edition of The Federalist with several aides for the reader to better understand the arguments in the text. In essay no. 62 James Madison raises the very interesting point that citizens will find it very difficult to obey the law if it is constantly changing (“mutable government”), either by growing enormously in size to be beyond the grasp of ordinary people, or by being incoherent, or being repealed or revised before they are promulgated. We even have the situation where massive and complicated laws are passed without having been read or debated by the legislators themselves, let alone discussed in the press and by the people. When this sad state has been reached, the law itself, as Madison eloquently says, “poisons the blessings of liberty.”

Death23
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@Greyparrot
Well, the homelessness thing is more complicated than you’re making it out to be. It’s not a direct comparative measure of compassion. That the homeless are there may be a sign that the local government tolerates them compared to citites that put in place policies designed to drive them out. They go wherever they want. If one state starts giving away lots of free housing that state will get swamped with an influx of homeless and have to pay. The solution has to be at the federal level to avoid that. There aren’t borders between states like there are between countries.
Greyparrot
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@Death23
Well, the homelessness thing is more complicated than you’re making it out to be. It’s not a direct comparative measure of compassion. 
Okay granted there are many factors in play for the homeless including geographically being close to the border, but there really is no excuse for the systemic poverty to GDP ratio California has boasted for the past 50 years.

Where is your outrage? Why after 50 years are they still the nation's leader in that metric?
Death23
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@Greyparrot
I usually look at GINI coefficients when talking about wealth and income inequality. I mean, I've never really harbored outrage at particular states based on data like that. There aren't borders between states. People can go from one to the next, and that's not within the state's power to control where people are living unless they're wards of the state somehow. Outrage would be more directed at what those states actually do.

EDIT: I do know that California and New York have failed to address the housing crisis. Housing costs in NYC the SF bay area are insane.
Greyparrot
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@Death23
EDIT: I do know that California and New York have failed to address the housing crisis. Housing costs in NYC the SF bay area are insane.

These are some of the highest GDP states in the Nation...what is your best excuse for 50 years of so many poor people?

If these states were actually serious about income equality...GDP would be lower with a LOT fewer poor people.
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@Greyparrot
You ever think that poor people are there because they chose to be there?
Greyparrot
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@Death23
Because they probably were promised for 50 years that the high GDP would be redistributed to them. That was a promise broken over and over 50 times.
Greyparrot
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@Death23
 usually look at GINI coefficients when talking about wealth and income inequality.

New York and California are above the national average in income inequality gini scores BTW according to wikipidia.
Death23
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@Greyparrot
You can only take so much from the rich before they move to 0% income tax states. it’s so easy to move within the United States. If there are national borders then those are harder to cross. This is really the flaw you’re thinking, and even the national border doesn’t matter so much because there are 2 million illegals in CA.

A lot of the poverty in California is in the eastern part of the state and central valley. It’s a lot of rural farms with poor farmhands. A lot of poor people go in the big cities for the opportunity. I think the wage difference is more of a draw if you’re poor. It was for me.

You’re looking at results and blaming the state, but that’s not how blame goes. Judge by conduct, not consequences.
Greyparrot
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@Death23
You’re looking at results and blaming the state, but that’s not how blame goes. Judge by conduct, not consequences.

It's not like California has any excuse though. There are only 4 States (besides DC which always leads the pack on poverty and corruption) above the national Gini average and you might be able to give Louisiana a pass since Katrina irrevocably fucked the state up with the mass middle-class exodus (I was one of those that left Louisiana) and with the pernicious massive corruption of the Federal giveaways to the rich.

California and New York have been at the top consistently for 50 years. Conduct is all nice and all SAYING you care about the poor and inequality, but 50 years is long enough to stop excusing the broken promises.
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@RationalMadman
Such as?
Such as not having one iota of private or public industry executive experience.Obama was and is a man of the streets, and his smarts do not expand beyond that. once upon a time. even as recently as Truman, we could have a street-smart shoe salesman, but challenges on the world stage are not that simple anymore. Obama was over his head. Same problem Biden has, actually. A career in public service, but never in an executive position. I expect about the same mediocrity from him.
Death23
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@Greyparrot
California and New York have been at the top consistently for 50 years.
Why?
Greyparrot
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@Death23
Because the politicians have figured out how to break promises for 50 years with no consequences.
Greyparrot
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@Death23
Why?

This is an interesting article that touches on why some reasons why Califonia politicians have failed consistently to implement their promises for income equality and the uplifting of the poor.

It's not enough that the career leftist politicians have learned how to cancel out competition leaving them as the only option on the ballot, they also cull within their party, canceling competition from within (progressives vs moderates). Which they do mostly with media kickbacks and lobby kickbacks. Without any competition, there is no upside to delivering on any campaign promise since there is nobody to politically oppose them. They have become an unaccountable political monopoly with the unwitting blessing of the voters, only because most of the voters are completely unaware of the process the career Democrats use to utterly destroy any threats or competition to their power.

And since there are very few media outlets left in California willing to challenge the career politicians, many of the people in California have come to expect this level of service from the government as "normal." If there is any blame for persistent problems, it won't likely come from any political challengers since there are so few.

Here is a snippet from the article.

“The other side has lots of very able and effective lobbyists,” said state Assembly member David Chiu, a Progressive San Francisco Democrat who sponsored the eviction moratorium.

Chiu, who was involved in the negotiations, said business groups including landlords and developers have vast amounts of money to spend, not only on campaign contributions but also on researchers and lawyers to present arguments.

“Sacramento is a place where if you have the financial resources to hire the best lobbyists and advocates, you can go far, and that is typically more true for well-heeled industries than for constituencies that don’t have resources and are not as well organized,” he said.

Shanti Singh, communications and legislative coordinator for Tenants Together, said progressive advocates just didn’t have the same access in the state capital to last-minute negotiations that industry groups like the landlords enjoyed.

“Tenant organizations are generally operating on very small budgets, and we don’t throw money at a lot of political organizations,” Singh said.

zedvictor4
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@Dr.Franklin
In your biased Guadeloupean opinion Doc.

Though in my British opinion, not quite such an unmitigated political disaster as the Orange Clown.

Though in terms of entertainment Obama didn't posses quite the same ability to make people both laugh and cry.

All that the orange guy needed was big shoes and stripy socks and he could have sold hamburgers to the world.


And then there was Dubya......Nice guy but also out of his political depth.
sadolite
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All I know about the Obama Presidency that I can prove is that my health insurance tripled in cost, my taxes went up, more regulations affected my business negatively and gas prices doubled or tripled depending on where you live. Nothing positive to report on my end. Just more expansion of govt with no cost benefit that I can see.

Greyparrot
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@sadolite
You helped to keep the precious .0041666666% of the population alive.

AT ANY COST!!!1111!!!!
Greyparrot
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@sadolite
In March 2012, the CBO updated its Obamacare cost estimate to $1.76 trillion.

Let's do some quick math. 1,760,000,000,000 dollars/15000 lives "saved"

So Obamacare efficiency says we need to pay 117,333,333 dollars to save one life. WHEW! Never knew it costs Washington DC 117 million to save a life!




Death23
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@Greyparrot
The rent thing was pretty favorable to tenants. It is extremely difficult to evict right now in California. Your pay rent or quit notice has to be 15 days and include some declaration form where all they do is fill out the paper and send it back to you then you can't evict them. They can live there rent free and don't have to give you a dime until June 30th, and even then they only have to pony up 25% of the back rent to avoid being evicted. It's a shit show for landlords, and particularly unfair to the small landlords who barely profit even when the rent is paid on time and in full. There are a lot of people like that who move away from their home for a new job and rent out the house they left behind and still have to make the mortgage payments and are responsible for maintenance, taxes, and insurance. That there was no exception for the little guys was pretty lame.
Dr.Franklin
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@zedvictor4
Im not from Guadalupe.
Dr.Franklin
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@Greyparrot
none of that implies large government, you made that own obsession

the fact is that why do conservatives care about the size of the government?
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@Death23
obamacare failed