Our most basic axioms

Author: secularmerlin

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@Tarik
It's really simple. Yes or no do you care about human welfare?
Yeah sure what’s your point?
So what you are saying is that you cannot demonstrate or offer evidence of morality/punishment/reward/meaning but that you care about human welfare anyway. 

And I cannot demonstra or offer evidence of morality/punishment/reward/meaning but that I care about human welfare anyway. 

I wonder if you see why I have trouble understanding exactly how our positions differ. The would not seem to be a demonstrable or observable difference. 


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@secularmerlin
Your missing a key detail here I BELIEVE there’s evidence of morality/punishment/reward/meaning.
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@Tarik
Your missing a key detail here I BELIEVE there’s evidence
Unless you are arguing that there is evidence and prepared to present it this is a meaningless distinction. 
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@secularmerlin
No I’m arguing that we’re NOT the same in this regard.
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@Tarik
No I’m arguing that we’re NOT the same in this regard.
You have asked me repeatedly to justify my beliefs. You cannot justify your own. You are maintaining a double standard and that is intellectually dishonest. 
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@secularmerlin
How do you justify your beliefs without proof (AKA reward/punishment)?
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@Tarik
How do you justify your beliefs without proof
How do you justify your beliefs without proof?

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@secularmerlin
Difference is I didn’t argue (completely) in favor of my beliefs, I have no problem turning the floor over to me as long as you admit your little “well-being” rant was a waste since it lead us here.
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@Tarik
I didn’t argue (completely) in favor of my beliefs
Then you were by definition being a dishonesty interlocutor. When you are ready to make your actual argument feel free to. 
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@secularmerlin
It’s not dishonesty if I’m telling you I’m doing it.
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@Tarik
This is the Table Metaphor for a Rational Conversation. (TMFRC)

Imagine if you will, two people in a room.

They both bring with them a table with some number of legs.

The first person says, here's my table, it has six legs, please let me know if you see any problems.

The second person says, here's my table, it has nine legs, please let me know if you see any problems.

The two people then examine the tables and if there's a structural problem with one of the legs, they point out the problem and give the other a chance to modify or repair the flaws.

If a leg is fundamentally flawed it must be removed from that table.

If either table has fewer than three legs, it can no longer function as a table and that person will have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a (possibly similar) but better table.

Perhaps both tables will stand, and perhaps both tables will fall.

However, if one table stands and the other falls, there is absolutely no obligation for the person with the fallen table to adopt the design of the table that didn't fall.

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However, imagine that one of the two people decides to employ an argumentum ad ignorantiam. - https://en.wikipedia.org...

Person (a) says, here's my table and it has seven legs.

Person (b) says, I don't like any of those legs because they look strange (ad hominem).

Person (a) says, perhaps they look a little strange to you, but they do a perfectly good job of holding up my table, can you please explain, if you believe they don't support my table, what specific -structural-problem- can you identify?

Person (b) refuses to answer this question and instead says, my table is better and therefore your table is wrong (bald assertion, argumentum ad lapidem, false dichotomy).

Person (a) says, what table are you talking about, you haven't shown me your table. AND more to the point, even if your table is "perfect" it does not make my table "wrong". You still need to explain any structural flaws you are able to identify.

Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).

Person (a) says, that's not really how this works. You have to show me your table.

Person (b) says, my table is round and has like nine million legs (bald assertion).

Person (a) says, can you be a little more specific?

Person (b) says, YOU CAN'T PROVE MY TABLE IS WRONG (argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Person (a) says, what table are you talking about? It is obviously impossible for me to point out structural flaws in a table that either doesn't exist or that you refuse to show to me or that you only explain in ridiculously vague terms.

Person (b) says, I can't be bothered to show you my table because you could never understand it (ad hominem, argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Person (a) says, if you can't (or won't) show me your table and at least three legs, I think this conversation is over.

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@Tarik
Nope.....I would call it, assumed morality.
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@secularmerlin
This is the Table Metaphor for a Rational Conversation. (TMFRC)
Phenomenal.
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@Tarik
How do you justify your beliefs without proof (AKA reward/punishment)?
You'll enjoy this.

It was written by Christians and it explains your argument with logical elegance.

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@secularmerlin
Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).

Person (a) says, that's not really how this works. You have to show me your table.
This part puts me in stitches.
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@secularmerlin
You are maintaining a double standard and that is intellectually dishonest. 
Not necessarily. [**]
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@secularmerlin
Your missing a key detail here I BELIEVE there’s evidence
Unless you are arguing that there is evidence and prepared to present it this is a meaningless distinction. 
After a few truly epic conversations with @Athias, I realized @Athias had actually made a truly profound point.

Specifically, "belief" does not require justification.

People quite often believe things they don't understand intellectually.

BELIEF = AXIOM

Even in formal logic, it is acknowledged that AXIOMS do not require any explanation (justification) themselves.

AXIOMS are the starting point of a logical system.

They are the statements which are presumed true without proof, from which all of a logical system is built.

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@secularmerlin
I have trouble understanding exactly how our positions differ.
Great point.

It's sort of a hostile version of establishing common ground.

PRAXIS is functionally indistinguishable.
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@3RU7AL
You are maintaining a double standard and that is intellectually dishonest. 
Not necessarily. [**]
Please elaborate 
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@3RU7AL
Specifically, "belief" does not require justification.
No but when your interlocutor insists that yours do without offering any of their own...
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@3RU7AL
I have trouble understanding exactly how our positions differ.
Great point.

It's sort of a hostile version of establishing common ground.

PRAXIS is functionally indistinguishable.
Permission to treat the witness as hostile your honor.
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@secularmerlin
Specifically, "belief" does not require justification.
No but when your interlocutor insists that yours do without offering any of their own...
100% AGREE.
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@secularmerlin
You are maintaining a double standard and that is intellectually dishonest. 
Not necessarily. [**]
Please elaborate 
Never presume malice when (bias blindspot) is sufficient.
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@3RU7AL
Never presume malice when (bias blindspot) is sufficient.
Good point. Recommended course of action in those instances?
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@secularmerlin
Never presume malice when (bias blindspot) is sufficient.
Good point. Recommended course of action in those instances?
Usually I just keep trying different approaches until my interlocutor abandons the conversation.

And this is excellent because if someone replies to you more than three times, you've really made an impression.

Heck, I count my blessings if I get a single terse or sarcastic response.

When I imagine being on "the other side" of the table, I feel especially lucky when I find a conversation dance partner who exhausts me.

Human minds are well adapted to processing and remembering STORIES.

So, (non-abstract) metaphors, fables, myths, and PERSONAL ANECDOTES are disproportionately effective ways of breaking down intellectual resistance.

Images (that are not specifically text but may include simple text) and sound and COLOR are processed differently than formal blocks of text and can significantly amplify your effectiveness.

If you can make your message humorous, that will increase its chances of survival and propagation by an order of magnitude.
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@secularmerlin
ATTENTION IS THE ONLY CURRENCY.
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@secularmerlin
Person (b) refuses to answer this question
Incorrect, when you asked me what I believe I told you many times and since I’m a nice guy I’ll refresh your memory.

“in order for our lives to have meaning we need to be punished or rewarded in some capacity otherwise it’s fair to question why do we care if the universe is so uncaring, after all aren’t we at our core extensions of the universe?”
Just because it may not be as specific as you would like doesn’t mean I don’t believe it and I don’t know what more you want from me I’ve admitted to not being able to prove God to you and you’ve accepted that yet you still reference that as if you got nothing else to harp on.

even if your table is "perfect" it does not make my table "wrong".
Difference is you have no “table”, you’ve yet to prove meaning WITHOUT reward and/or punishment as a component, another fundamental difference between you and I because at least I’m willing to withhold some of my beliefs for sake of the discussion but you’re still claiming meaning without any proof whatsoever.

Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).
I don’t know what you’re referencing to with this, as for the false dichotomy point you’ve yet to prove another possibility until you do the only truth here is either an afterlife or nihilism and don’t get me started on emotional appeal because your whole “well-being” argument is emotional (that’s if there is no afterlife) lastly thanks for that long whatever that was but it didn’t prove a thing making it another waste of your time.


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@Tarik
in order for our lives to have meaning we need to be punished or rewarded 
in order for our lives to have morality/punishment/reward/meaning we need morality/punished/rewarded/meaning.

Please explain the difference between these two statements and how either of them is not a circular reasoning fallacy?

I accept your tautology and continue to be completely disinterested in some god(s) moral dictates and unconvinced that they are useful in understanding WHY something is moral or immoral whether any god(s) exists or not. I feel this is a structural issue with your argument. Please repair this leg.

My argument (table)
IF there exists any morality/punishment/reward/meaning (leg one) and IF we have no way of demonstrating it or assessing it other than through our own subjective viewpoint of the universe (leg two) THEN we are forced to assess morality/punishment/reward/meaning through our own subjective viewpoint of the universe (leg three)

IF and ONLY IF the premesis are true THEN the conclusion is a logical necessity. 

IF you see any structural issues with my premises THEN please explain exactly what the structural flaw is. 

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@Tarik
Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).
I don’t know what you’re referencing to with this,
Probably when you (indirectly) suggested the only alternative to your table is NIHILISM.

And everybody knows NIHILISM killed a bunch of people and makes babies cry.
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@secularmerlin
My argument (table)
IF there exists any morality/punishment/reward/meaning (leg one) and IF we have no way of demonstrating it or assessing it other than through our own subjective viewpoint of the universe (leg two) THEN we are forced to assess morality/punishment/reward/meaning through our own subjective viewpoint of the universe (leg three)

IF and ONLY IF the premesis are true THEN the conclusion is a logical necessity. 

IF you see any structural issues with my premises THEN please explain exactly what the structural flaw is. 
Truly a work of art.