Our most basic axioms

Author: secularmerlin

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@secularmerlin
personal moral intuition
You’ve yet to prove subjective morality.

I don't have to agree with the moral correctness of an action tocapitulate
How do you capitulate to a God you don’t agree with?
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@3RU7AL
How can "objective meaning" be conditional?
It’s not if it’s true.
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@Tarik
How can "objective meaning" be conditional?
It’s not if it’s true.
But weren't you suggesting that "objective meaning" only exists (IFF) divine punishment and divine reward exists?
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@Tarik
You’ve yet to prove subjective morality.
Without a perfectly unambiguous set of moral rules to follow, we must make our best subjective guess at what is morally correct (de facto subjective morality).

An unrevealed and or secret and or inscrutable and or undefined and or unknown and or unknowable "objective moral code" is functionally indistinguishable from subjective morality.
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@3RU7AL
But weren't you suggesting that "objective meaning" only exists (IFF) divine punishment and divine reward exists?
Yes but that doesn’t mean it’s subjective if the latter two don’t exist.

Without a perfectly unambiguous set of moral rules to follow, we must make our best subjective guess at what is morally correct (de facto subjective morality).
Not if your a nihilist.

secularmerlin
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@Tarik
You’ve yet to prove subjective morality.
I'm not talking about subjective morality I am talking about my moral intuition. I don't to prove that I have opinions regarding morality.

In fact quite the reverse. You would need to prove that some morality beyond human moral opinion exists. If that means there isno "true" morality so be it. I don't need objective morals to determine what kind of world I would like to live in or to deduce what human actions are likely to lead to that world. 

Please please please stop trying to shift the burden of proof here.
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@Tarik
Yes but that doesn’t mean it’s subjective if the latter two don’t exist.
Ok.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Does the practical application of your ontology still boil down to, "always do what you think is morally correct"?
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@Tarik
Not if your a nihilist.
I don't think anyone involved in the conversation identifies as a nihilist whatever point you are trying to make by pointing this out doesn't apply here even if you are correct. 
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@secularmerlin
I am talking about my moral intuition.
You mean your “subjective” moral intuition. That’s in doubt so yes you have to prove it.

You would need to prove that some morality beyond human moral opinion exists.
Where was that in my argument, do I have to quote it again for you?

I don't need objective morals to determine what kind of world I would like to live in
When did I say you did? Please quote me.

doesn't apply here even if you are correct.
That doesn’t make sense how can I be correct if it doesn’t apply?
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@secularmerlin
Sure, let’s go with that.
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@Tarik
You mean your “subjective” moral intuition. That’s in doubt so yes you have to prove it.
There is no doubt that I have opinions regarding what is moral and so do you. This isnot assuming the correctness of my moral intuition only that I have one and that I have no choice but to believe I am correct just as you do. I can hardly disagree with myself. 
Where was that in my argument, do I have to quote it again for you?
I'm getting a little tired of this merry go round. 

I don't have to prove that people have moral opinions or that those opinions, being only opinions, are subjective. Someone, not necessarily you, would have to prove something beyond those opinions exists before I would be able to maintain a beleif.
That doesn’t make sense how can I be correct if it doesn’t apply?
It doesn't matter what is or is not the case for a nihilist since none of us identifies as a nihilist. Also I do not believe that you can read minds and so if I want to know what any nihilist thinks I believe I would be better served asking them then trusting in your dubious insights. 
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
@3RU7AL
Tarik were you perhaps responding to 3ru7al when  you said the following?

Sure, let’s go with that.
And was it in regards to this question?
Does the practical application of your ontology still boil down to, "always do what you think is morally correct"?
And if so how does one go about thinking something is morally correct without being of the subjective opinion, right or wrong, that something is morally correct?
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@3RU7AL
Sure, let’s go with that.
secularmerlin
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@Tarik
I don't need objective morals to determine what kind of world I would like to live in
When did I say you did? Please quote me.
Great! Excellent! Glad we agree. So I don't need any objective morality to self actualize or to determine what is morally correct for myself in exactly the same way that you are forced to. This is true whether there is some god(s) or no god(s) and whether it is a "moral" god or an "antimoral" god. 
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@secularmerlin
There is no doubt that I have opinions regarding what is moral and so do you.
Prove it.

I'm getting a little tired of this merry go round. 

I don't have to prove that people have moral opinions
Then stop making claims you can’t support, people don’t have moral opinions if you’re gonna claim they do then yes you have to prove it otherwise you leave me no choice but to dismiss the argument.

It doesn't matter what is or is not the case for a nihilist since none of us identifies as a nihilist.
On the contrary it doesn’t matter what YOU identify as because as far as I’m concerned if I’m wrong in regards to reward and punishment then nihilism by default is correct.

And if so how does one go about thinking something is morally correct without being of the subjective opinion, right or wrong, they something is morally correct?
I’m willing to admit I probably can’t prove objective morality to you, that’s why I’m not entertaining this topic with you because YOU just like me can’t prove our side in terms of morals therefore for the sake of discussion it’s put to the wayside and you’re right that was for 3RU7AL.

Great! Excellent! Glad we agree. So I don't need any objective morality to self actualize or to determine what is morally correct
Don’t try to be slick, moral correctness and what YOU like is not the same thing.
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@Tarik
Then stop making claims you can’t support, people don’t have moral opinions if you’re gonna claim they do then yes you have to prove it otherwise you leave me no choice but to dismiss the argument.
Do you know right from wrong? Perhaps that is too strong.  Hmmmm what will you accept that has the correct meaning... you do or don't do certain things because you believe that they are probably moral or immoral right?
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@secularmerlin
I’d like to think so but I’m not perfect.
3RU7AL
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@secularmerlin
So I don't need [to know the specific details of] any [hypothetical] objective morality to self actualize or to determine what is morally correct for myself in exactly the same way that you are forced to. This is true whether there is some god(s) or no god(s) and whether it is a "moral" god or an "antimoral" god. 

I hate to press my luck, but, perhaps,

(IFF) OBJECTIVE MORALITY EXISTS (THEN) IT IS EITHER CURRENTLY UNKNOWN OR UNKNOWABLE (THEREFORE) WE MUST ALWAYS DO WHAT WE THINK IS RIGHT
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@secularmerlin
OBJECTIVE MORALITY = WE MUST ALWAYS DO WHAT WE THINK IS RIGHT
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@Tarik
I’d like to think so but I’m not perfect.
This constitutes an opinion about morality. Arguably two if thinking you may have room for improvement is an opinion rather than a human truism.


You have moral opinions. An entirely different concept from objective morality so whether objective reality exists or not we have opinions about morality. 

Please point out any flaw in my logic or offer a (necessary and demonstrable) counterfactual. 
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@3RU7AL
OBJECTIVE MORALITY = WE MUST ALWAYS DO WHAT WE THINK IS RIGHT
What if we think different things are right?
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@secularmerlin
thinking you may have room for improvement is an opinion rather than a human truism.
You’ve uttered yourself that we’re all ignorant to some degree, how is ignorance synonymous to perfection?

so whether objective reality exists or not we have opinions about morality.
Reality? Since when was the existence of reality in question? And you can keep saying morality is opinionated all you want, it doesn’t make it true unless you can prove it.

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@secularmerlin
OBJECTIVE MORALITY = WE MUST ALWAYS DO WHAT WE THINK IS RIGHT
What if we think different things are right?
Well, we both pray and meditate about it and the most sincere and good hearted person is correct!

So, I guess we'd have to stage some sort of pure hearted "sincere-off" battle royale or something.
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-->@Tarik
I’d like to think so but I’m not perfect.
This constitutes an opinion about morality. Arguably two if thinking you may have room for improvement is an opinion rather than a human truism.


You have moral opinions. An entirely different concept from objective morality so whether objective morality exists or not we have opinions about morality. 

Please point out any flaw in my logic or offer a (necessary and demonstrable) counterfactual. 

Sorry for the minor typo. Here is my post resubmitted with the necessary correction. 

secularmerlin
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@3RU7AL
I guess we'd have to stage some sort of pure hearted "sincere-off" battle royale or something.
Interesting idea. I'll get the super duper sincerity measuring slide rule.
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@secularmerlin
I honestly can’t tell the difference so I’m gonna stick to my original response in #322
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@Tarik
I no longer believe you are trying to have any honest discussion. 



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@secularmerlin
Why?
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@Tarik
Because I do not believe anyone could be this genuinely obtuse.
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@secularmerlin
genuinely obtuse.
Prove it