Upcoming Referendum: Updated Voting Policy!

Author: Barney

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@3RU7AL
For context, a truisms are not moderated rule already applies under the current voting policy, merely called one category of "troll debate" as outlined in the extended policies document (I really do want to do away with reliance on said document).

However in direct response to the question, IMO the objectivity of morality can be argued by either side; in fact I've partaken in multiple debates on the subject. Sure, someone can leverage Hume's Guillotine, but that doesn't guarantee they will explain it well or that no defense will be offered.

If someone starts a debate: "Assuming morality is incompatible with objectivity, then morality is incompatible with objectivity." That would be a time this rule would come into play.
Barney
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I've remembered an additional question for the referendum:
Replace the outdated information center page on debates, with this update.

As it's not a policy change, I don't think a vote is necessary. However, since we are having a vote anyways, why not.
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@MisterChris
This just isn't the case.
Unfortunately, it is quite the case.

There's an element of personal discretion inevitable to the concept of moderation, but the voting standards are almost always what we go by.
No, you go by your "interpretation" of the voting standards which is subject to your "inevitable personal discretion."

If you are dissatisfied with decisions, you are welcome to appeal them, and the mods will collectively discuss whether the decision was appropriate relative to the standards. 
Oh really? Has this been successful?
ethang5
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This just isn't the case.
Unfortunately, it is quite the case.
3RU7AL
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@Barney
If someone starts a debate: "Assuming morality is incompatible with objectivity, then morality is incompatible with objectivity." That would be a time this rule would come into play.
I appreciate your attempt at clarification.

The only debates I've ever participated in are TAUTOLOGICAL.

I guess (IFF) there's no general consensus on the definitions of "objectivity" and "morality" (THEN) there's no general consensus on their TAUTOLOGICAL incompatibility.
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@MisterChris
This just isn't the case. There's an element of personal discretion inevitable to the concept of moderation, but the voting standards are almost always what we go by.
It is somewhat disheartening to spend over three hours combing through a debate, point by point, and then have my vote removed because I "failed to address the key arguments" (which are 100% left to the imagination) and my deductions for "conduct" are thrown out because "mild insults" are apparently not considered "ad hominem attacks" by the moderator in question and my references for "logical fallacies" are considered "outside information".
3RU7AL
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@Barney
Arguments
Mandatory! Three points.

Goes to the side that, within the context of the debate rounds, successfully affirms (vote pro) or negates (vote con) the resolution. Ties are possible, particularly with pre-agreed competing claims, but in most cases failing to affirm the resolution means pro loses by default.
I'm not sure I agree with this.

The debates I spent excessive amounts of time investigating involved two parties who were BOTH making bad arguments and utterly failing to address the resolution.

In these cases I would NOT award points for arguments (conduct and sources could sway the outcome).

I would hope the BOP would be shared, and neither party would be rewarded for their incompetence with a "win" by default.
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@3RU7AL
Arguments
Mandatory! Three points.

Goes to the side that, within the context of the debate rounds, successfully affirms (vote pro) or negates (vote con) the resolution. Ties are possible, particularly with pre-agreed competing claims, but in most cases failing to affirm the resolution means pro loses by default.
I'm not sure I agree with this.

The debates I spent excessive amounts of time investigating involved two parties who were BOTH making bad arguments and utterly failing to address the resolution.

In these cases I would NOT award points for arguments (conduct and sources could sway the outcome).

I would hope the BOP would be shared, and neither party would be rewarded for their incompetence with a "win" by default.
I do not entirely understand your main disagreement. The proposal specifically states "in most cases," having already explained that arguments can be left a tie so long as some reason for that tie is given (it's explained a couple paragraphs above that, and then again later under vote removal). ... So yeah, you withholding arguments from both those sides, so long as you tell why, is fine.

As for the idea of forcing shared BoP: For many resolutions that would leave con being required to do the impossible of proving a negative. I believe BoP is best left up to the debaters to frame and the voters to judge.
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@ethang5
That seems directed at me, but I am stuck waiting on your actual point...
Barney
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I just made a micro change to the proposed conduct policy:
Common examples are repeatedly using personal attacks instead of arguments,
The word repeatedly was added further emphasise that it should not be given lightly.
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@Barney
The proposal specifically states "in most cases,"
The bold MANDATORY seems to overshadow that somewhat.
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@Barney
As for the idea of forcing shared BoP: For many resolutions that would leave con being required to do the impossible of proving a negative.
Unless the resolution is framed in the negative.

For example, "MORALITY IS NOT OBJECTIVE".

PRO would be forced to "prove a negative" and CON would be forced to "prove a positive" (MORALITY IS OBJECTIVE).
3RU7AL
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@Barney
I believe BoP is best left up to the debaters to frame and the voters to judge.
Sure, but if that's the case, why bother writing down any rules at all or even mention "win by default"??
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@Athias
No, you go by your "interpretation" of the voting standards which is subject to your "inevitable personal discretion."
The weird thing is that they don't even seem to recognize this.

QUANTAFIABLE STANDARDS.

If you're going to pretend to be "objective" then at LEAST make sure your "moderation" could be programmed into a computer.

OR, just admit your rules are QUALITATIVE.
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@3RU7AL
The proposal specifically states "in most cases,"
The bold MANDATORY seems to overshadow that somewhat.
Arguments must be reviewed to be determined as a tie (by a lower standard than if assigning the points), but can indeed be a tie. The mandatory thing is that there is a review.


As for the idea of forcing shared BoP: For many resolutions that would leave con being required to do the impossible of proving a negative.
Unless the resolution is framed in the negative.
True, pro also sometimes gets the task of proving a negative.


I believe BoP is best left up to the debaters to frame and the voters to judge.
Sure, but if that's the case, why bother writing down any rules at all or even mention "win by default"??
Because it holds true "in most cases," as the policy preludes that default statement.

Further, the proposed policy gives implicit advice on how to properly structure shared BoP if such is desired ("pre-agreed competing claims").
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The entire CoC section of voting should read as follows:

As long as we believe that you have semi-decent IQ, paid at least 60% attention to the debate and that you're not deeply in love or hate with one of the debaters, we will allow your vote as long as members don't call you super biased. If members call you super biased in spite of you not meeting out vote-removal criteria, we'll remove it anyways, soz bruh.
Thanks for your concern.

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@RationalMadman
Nice.
Barney
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@RationalMadman
When it comes to voting on debates, policy doesn't really matter, enforcement does.
The current moderation team could be replaced, and a new one should still be enforcing a policy everyone can access. For example, if User A abuses the report function when he spots someone he dislikes committing such imaginary crimes as not being nice enough to someone else (which the CoC does not mandate), I'd rather any moderation team enforce the CoC by generally ignoring the dozens and dozens of spam reports as opposed to banning the users who have committed no CoC violations at the behest of User A.


Whatever policy is written won't change much about the culture of junk-filled RFDs.
A policy affects which ones are eligible for deletion if reported, and further attempts to guide people in the right direction of having quality votes. With no policy, we'd have vote bomb wars (as was actually seen for awhile on a previous debate site).


Especially not when we get punished for reporting and have flagging option deleted from our accounts, rather than asking us why we reported them.
The CoC we democratically voted in clearly specifies "Revocation of abused privileges" as one consequence of wanton repeated abuse. I can count on one hand the number of users who have had the any of the quick flagging features revoked, and all are still allowed to write in to moderators about actual CoC violations... That it now takes a little of their time to do when requesting moderators make a much larger time investment in review of the reported content, seems a lot closer to fair.
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@Barney
Little? I would rather not spend one fucking second PMing your fake backstabbing ass, spelling out why what I report violates the CoC you should know. I'd rather click a flag. 
Athias
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@3RU7AL
The weird thing is that they don't even seem to recognize this.

QUANTAFIABLE STANDARDS.

If you're going to pretend to be "objective" then at LEAST make sure your "moderation" could be programmed into a computer.

OR, just admit your rules are QUALITATIVE.
Perhaps I'll create a debate, at least for the sake of argument, titled, "DART's Moderators ARE NOT and CAN NOT be 'objective'". I'm not sure if I'd intend on having the focus primarily lie on their moderation of votes (i.e. RFD's, vote deletion, etc.) or the votes they cast themselves. It would be interesting if one of the moderators participated especially given that the subject concerns their discretion, but I doubt either of them would risk their veneers, or "records" in a contest over the consistent application of logic. If time permits, I'll think about it.
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@Barney
@3RU7AL

@3RU7AL, Ragnar:
Ragnar:
As for the idea of forcing shared BoP: For many resolutions that would leave con being required to do the impossible of proving a negative.
Unless the resolution is framed in the negative.

For example, "MORALITY IS NOT OBJECTIVE".

PRO would be forced to "prove a negative" and CON would be forced to "prove a positive" (MORALITY IS OBJECTIVE).

And this is the issue that will continually manifest when those whose grasp of argument construction is at best superficial. Contrary to "internet standards," there's nothing fallacious or erroneous about "proving a negative." As 3RU7AL aptly demonstrated, the affirmation will create an onus even when framed in the negative. The oft repeated mantra "impossible to prove a negative" is actually a misunderstanding of the logical fallacy known as argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ingornatiam) which delineates that one's affirmation of the "positive" is not given proof by the absence of proving the "negative." Ragnar, one is always responsible for his/her affirmation regardless of whether it's framed in the positive or negative. That is the nature of onus probandi.

@3RU7AL, Ragnar:
Ragnar:
I believe BoP is best left up to the debaters to frame and the voters to judge.
Sure, but if that's the case, why bother writing down any rules at all or even mention "win by default"??
Exactly, 3RU7AL. If the BoP is determined by the whim of the instigator, then there really is no point to the rules. This notion is completely lost on the moderators--correction: a couple of the moderators. Onus Probandi determines the responsibility each participant bears in the resolution of the argument; not the instigators stipulations. You know that, 3RU7AL; I know that; but if the "moderators" don't know that, then we're "violating voting policy" if their ignorance isn't displayed in our RFD's. And what makes matters worse is when one clearly knows--I suppose for lack of a better term--"more" than the moderators do on the subject, and gets penalized for it.
Barney
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@Athias
Do you actually have any refinements to suggest?
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@Barney
Do you actually have any refinements to suggest?
You really only need one rule.

NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
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@3RU7AL
You really only need one rule.

NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
I think history has shown a need for way more than that, given that a vote which contains no insults can be horrific (such as ones which make zero references to the debate in question, or write their own arguments instead of grading the debate in question).

...

Regarding your earlier comment that the rules should be established such that they "could be programmed into a computer"

Due to the subjective nature of most debates and likewise their votes, I disagree. Certainly a set of boolean functions to look for vote length and keywords would be possible, but would be ripe for easy manipulation via copy/pasted word salad. Granted, if anyone put the work into designing a spreadsheet for it, I would gladly try it out, and probably at least incorporate it as an initial quality control check on more complicated votes.

Debates are usually pretty subjective territory, so moderation for them needs to be able to read context in a way computers can't (at or least would be extremely difficult). While mistakes will inevitably happen, we honestly try. That we're some of the most prolific voters ourselves, should lend some authority from experience on the matter. That our own votes are sometimes deleted does prove we are not perfect, but also shows that we strive to be fair.
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@Barney
You really only need one rule.

NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
I think history has shown a need for way more than that, given that a vote which contains no insults can be horrific (such as ones which make zero references to the debate in question, or write their own arguments instead of grading the debate in question).
I meant no ad hominem attacks specifically within the debate, although I would imagine ad hominem attacks should also be off-limits for the votes as well.

I would imagine that a bare-minimum RFD should include at least one verbatim quote from each participant from each round of the debate.

For points awarded for "arguments", I would imagine how well or how poorly each participant addressed the ACTUAL debate resolution (with specific verbatim quotes from each) seems pretty clear-cut.

For points awarded for "sources", perhaps how well received the sources were by the opposing side could count towards this metric.

I find "sources" often get dismissed out of hand by opposition, so tailoring your sources to your opponent's preference would seem to be a demonstration of tact.

Regarding your earlier comment that the rules should be established such that they "could be programmed into a computer"

Due to the subjective nature of most debates and likewise their votes, I disagree.
Ok, I thought the whole charade was that judges were supposed to be "objective".

If you're going to flat-out acknowledge "the subjective nature of most debates" then why not throw the rules out and replace them with "moderator's discretion"?

Certainly a set of boolean functions to look for vote length and keywords would be possible, but would be ripe for easy manipulation via copy/pasted word salad. Granted, if anyone put the work into designing a spreadsheet for it, I would gladly try it out, and probably at least incorporate it as an initial quality control check on more complicated votes.
In an ideal world you'd barely have to judge RFDs at all.

However, imagine that a voter has no sense of logic.

For example,  you might encounter an RFD like, PRO elegantly defended the debate resolution of GOD IS GOOD by pointing out that "humans have free-will" and CON was unable to effectively dismantle the concept of free-will and thus I will award the "arguments" category to PRO.

Perhaps that's a bad example.

More abstractly, what if a voter finds a bad or misleading or logically fallacious argument convincing?

Are they still allowed to vote if they obviously read the entire debate and spent a lot of time crafting their RFD and of course avoided ad hominem attacks?

I would argue that they should be allowed to vote and their vote should be allowed to stand.



Should a debate be judged on how convincing the arguments are to the voters (OR) should a debate be judged on LOGICAL COHERENCE ALONE?



Debates are usually pretty subjective territory, so moderation for them needs to be able to read context in a way computers can't (at or least would be extremely difficult).
Ok, perhaps someone could create a template (round 1 CON # dropped arguments, round 1 PRO # dropped arguments, round 1 CON final statement rated for sound logic 1/0)?

I can only imagine trying to read through some of the monster RFDs that dwarf the entire debate itself.

I do feel badly for the moderators who are asked to review thousands of words in order to distill what is essentially some scrap of opinion buried in a pile of words.

While mistakes will inevitably happen, we honestly try. That we're some of the most prolific voters ourselves, should lend some authority from experience on the matter. That our own votes are sometimes deleted does prove we are not perfect, but also shows that we strive to be fair.
And you are heroic.

I'm just trying to make your life a little easier.


Should a debate be judged on how convincing the arguments are to the voters (OR) should a debate be judged on LOGICAL COHERENCE ALONE?
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@3RU7AL
I meant no ad hominem attacks specifically within the debate, although I would imagine ad hominem attacks should also be off-limits for the votes as well.
Not often, but we have had to delete votes for that exact reason.


I would imagine that a bare-minimum RFD should include at least one verbatim quote from each participant from each round of the debate.
I often include some quotes in mine, and experimented with making RFDs out of quotes. As a vote ultimately boils down to how the voter interprets what was said (or at least it should), their own words to describe it are usually fine. However, a major step the proposed policy has is making the readership responsibility explicit and early (that they present some evidence of having read the debate in question, as opposed to what some do of just giving their general opinion on the topic).


 so tailoring your sources to your opponent's preference would seem to be a demonstration of tact.
I would have nothing against a RFD giving extra credit for that (even tipping the source point to someone's favor, when it otherwise might remain in the tied range).


Regarding your earlier comment that the rules should be established such that they "could be programmed into a computer"

Due to the subjective nature of most debates and likewise their votes, I disagree.
Ok, I thought the whole charade was that judges were supposed to be "objective".

If you're going to flat-out acknowledge "the subjective nature of most debates" then why not throw the rules out and replace them with "moderator's discretion"?
I hope that is a rhetorical question, as humans are unlikely to be capable of perfect objectivity 100% of the time... But in case it's not a rhetorical question... We don't do that because it'd be blatetly and intentionally unfair (believe me, I once spent a few months on D&D site for which the rules were both constantly changing and only accessible by staff members). In my opinion, a voting policy should both give the expectations and help guide people in voting better. While votes are not expected to be flawless, they should at least strive to be fair with regards to the effort put in by each debater.


Should a debate be judged on how convincing the arguments are to the voters (OR) should a debate be judged on LOGICAL COHERENCE ALONE?
That's a bit of an ouroboros question. People who understand logic, are more likely to find a logical argument convincing. But then an argument which technically contains the right logic which would appeal to them, might be presented poorly causing the same voter to not find it convincing at all.

I think a snippet from the proposed outside content policy may be helpful:
"We do not vote in a perfect vacuum. Your background is assured to influence how easy to follow certain contentions were, and even bias you on source types. The idea is to ensure you are at least trying to vote fairly for the debate in question, as opposed to voting as an ideologue."

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@Barney
You are extremely reasonable and I'm glad you've chosen to volunteer as a moderator for this site.

The upshot here is that I don't understand the voting policy.

I thought I understood the voting policy, but then my votes were deleted.

Perhaps you could add some links to maybe like 5 "examples of good RFDs" on the rules page itself.
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@Barney
The idea is to ensure you are at least trying to vote fairly for the debate in question, as opposed to voting as an ideologue."
DETECTING MOTIVE IS FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM WITCHCRAFT.
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@Barney
Do you actually have any refinements to suggest?
Yes: cognizant moderators who are knowledgeable about the subject which they presume to regulate.

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@3RU7AL
DETECTING MOTIVE IS FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM WITCHCRAFT.
Not really, all professional detectives (profilers being the absolute specialist detectives in that field) and judges do it and measure it into how they proceed. Not to mention psychiatrists, therapists etc.