Abortion and human rights

Author: Benjamin

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#241
3RU7AL
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@Benjamin
Feel free to prove how reason can defend universal human rights
In the same way that apes exhibit moral behavior without religion, humans can exhibit moral behavior without religion.

This proto-morality, pro-social behavior is then combined with rational thought and extended coherently.

Humans (and most mammals) have the following moral instincts,

(1) PROTECT YOURSELF.
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY.
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY.

In order to advance the implicit goals of these moral instincts we naturally wish to create social norms to mitigate violence within our immediate geographical area.

As we become aware of larger areas, we wish to mitigate violence within those larger areas.

The concept of "never kill a human" (human rights) is a logical extension of our individual survival instincts.

No religion needed.
#242
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@FLRW
The ignorant chimpanzee then began to follow the knowledgeable chimpanzee, ignoring her attempts at misleading, indicating that he anticipated her attempts at deception. In other experimental procedures, chimpanzees have learned to withhold information – and even provide false information – to competitive human experimenters who do not provide food to the subject in experimental tasks.
Good point.
#243
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@Benjamin
Feel free to prove how reason can defend universal human rights - or how religion cannot support said rights.
Alright, I will ,Christian moral rules, for instance, essentially derive their existence and authority from faith in, respectively, divine command and punishment. This means that Christian moral theory, while it offers substantial content, is limited in reach to those who actually believe in the axiomatic premise of that theory, Christian dogma. It cannot effectively reach those who do not believe that God laid down those rules and will punish those who do not follow them. The goal of naturalists, then, is to discover rules that have universal reach and that anybody must agree with, irrespective of faith—rules that are based on the premise of self-evident moral Truths deriving from Reason. But do these Truths exist, and can we find enough of them to create substantial moral content?
Hugo Grotius was a pioneer in this respect, as he developed rules of international law that were supposed to be rationalist and minimalist enough that they could stand etsi deus non daretur (even if God did not exist). He justified this by suggesting that the rules drew their existence and authority from rational principles of national self-preservation said to be so fundamental that no one could disagree with them ‘without doing violence to himself’. Grotius’ approach was so successful in establishing a moral consensus across religious denominations that he is today remembered as the ‘father of modern international law.
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#244
Benjamin
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Yes I know all the arguments.

The fact of the matter is that religion cannot adequately provide a coherent moral view.

However, only religion can support universal human rights - because reasoning would always put different "Humans" in different regards.


Only if humans have a soul - or something - can they have equal value.



Sorry, but I am tired of the discussion. Feel free to read my private debate with some of my friends:

#245
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@FLRW
Hugo Grotius (/ˈɡroʊʃiəs/; 10 April 1583 – 28 August 1645), also known as Huig de Groot (Dutch: [ˈɦœyɣ də ɣroːt]) and in Dutch as Hugo de Groot (Dutch: [ˈɦyɣoː də ɣroːt]), was a Dutch humanist, diplomat, lawyer, theologian, jurist, poet and playwright.

A teenage intellectual prodigy, he was born in Delft and studied at Leiden University. He was imprisoned for his involvement in the intra-Calvinist disputes of the Dutch Republic, but escaped hidden in a chest of books. Grotius wrote most of his major works in exile in France.

  • Book I advances his conception of war and of natural justice, arguing that there are some circumstances in which war is justifiable.
  • Book II identifies three 'just causes' for war: self-defense, reparation of injury, and punishment; Grotius considers a wide variety of circumstances under which these rights of war attach and when they do not.
  • Book III takes up the question of what rules govern the conduct of war once it has begun; influentially, Grotius argued that all parties to war are bound by such rules, whether their cause is just or not. [LINK]
#246
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@Benjamin
Only if humans have a soul - or something - can they have equal value.
Each human has "equal value" to themselves.
#247
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@3RU7AL

Yes, that is who Groot in Guardians of the Galaxy is named for.


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#248
Benjamin
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Each human has "equal value" to themselves.
Jews were not valueable to Hitler.
#249
3RU7AL
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@Benjamin
Each human has "equal value" to themselves.
Jews were not valueable to Hitler.
Each individual has a survival instinct that prompts them to self-value.

Oh, and that person you mention grew up in a religious society.
#250
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@3RU7AL
Each individual has a survival instinct that prompts them to self value.
True.....But the same instinct also allows them to under value others.


And all societies have a religious element, to a greater or lesser degree.....That fact only proves itself.

And the unmentionable person, also grew up in a nationalistic society....Which certainly went on to become self evident.

#251
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@zedvictor4
Each individual has a survival instinct that prompts them to self value.
True.....But the same instinct also allows them to under value others.
And yet, at the same time there is a sort of childish (self-serving) logic to the idea of "everybody play nice" (nobody kill anybody).

It's reasonable to believe, "the best way to protect myself from being killed is to be part of a society that doesn't believe in killing anybody for any reason".
#252
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@zedvictor4
And all societies have a religious element, to a greater or lesser degree
9 of the top 10 most religious countries are in the Middle East. [**]
#253
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@3RU7AL
Can we name such a society?


And the Middle East is certainly the creative centre of popular religion.....And it could be argued, somewhat more lacking in morality and regard for human rights, than a lot of other regions of the world.  Such is the contradiction of piety.
#254
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At birth, the human brain is in a remarkably unfinished state. Most of its 100 billion neurons are not yet connected in networks. Forming and reinforcing these connections are the key tasks of early brain development. Connections among neurons are formed as the growing child experiences the surrounding world and forms attachments to parents, family members and other caregivers. This is why it is moral to abort fetuses.
#255
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@Benjamin

I challenge anyone to give me a moral system capable of support the abortion industry and human rights at the same time.

Moral system: A moral standard, a moral authority and a way to measure moral value (who is valuable means who should be treated morally good)

Human rights: The idea that all humans are equally valuable regardless of their position, traits and views.

Human: A being with its own distinct DNA which is a part of the species homo sapiens
You’re looking for a perfect moral system to deal with a moral dilemma. That’s not logically possible.

A system that allows abortion allows for the termination of human life. A system that does not allow abortion removes a woman’s right to her own body.

You can believe you are in a greater moral position based on whichever of these evils you choose to be against, but you cannot credibly label those who disagree with you as being for an immoral system for you are no different.

#256
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@Benjamin
The independent, individual human has humans rights.

The non-indepenent, non-individual human fetus sovereignty lies with the pregnant mother to be.

All other sovereignties, stepping in to override the pregnant mother-to-be's decissions,  is an immoral abuse of power and shows they are sick-in-the-head nutcases.

The mother-to-be is the only soveriegnty to the non-individual, no-dinedpendent, fetus and unless she gives her consent or is incapacitated ergo no able to give consent, all others have no rights to the fetus { an organsim of the mother }

Men who claims rights  th sperm they gave to a woman, give away their rights to their sperm, only they gave their spern to the woman.  Unless the two parties have prior contract.  the man  has given away his seed to the woman to deal with as she and only she sees fit.

All others must bow to her wishes on the matter of the fetus. Any attempt otherwise should be locked away in jail for some period of time with restraining orders to say some number of miles from the pregnant mother-to-be.




#257
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@ebuc
The non-independent, non-individual human fetus sovereignty lies with the pregnant mother to be.
Good point.
#258
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@3RU7AL
Thank you 3ru, and it is the  significantly more relevant moral standing viewpoint.

Its pretty simple others should keep their friggen noses out of the pregnant womans body, unless she give her consent for other ---most often strangers-- to violate he body and mind.  Sic in the the head these type of people.

I bet 25% of these sic-n-the-head people are into conspiracy theroies that deny truth of many of the mass shootings we see in USA, and/or conspiracy theories of a shadow government etc.  Just plain sic-n-head people who have no moral desire to seek truth. 


#259
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@Benjamin
I challenge anyone to give me a moral system capable of support the abortion industry and human rights at the same time.
Part of the problem with this is your phrasing. After all there is no such thing as "the abortion industry" though there is a procedure known as abortion offered as a service by the health care industry.

If one believes in the idea of human rights at all I would presume that the health care industry is something one at least tacitly supports. At the very least if one does not it isn't the dispensing of health care and medical procedures that what one is actually objecting too.

I request your most scathing critique.
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#260
Benjamin
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@secularmerlin
The abortion industry: all organisations focused on providing abortion service
#261
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@Benjamin
The abortion industry: all organisations focused on providing abortion service
I know of no organization which focuses on this though I can think of several organizations that focus on women's reproductive health and as a result offer abortion services. 
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#262
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@secularmerlin
The Abortion Industry: A Study in Predation
Title of this article from Family Research Center.
#263
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@Benjamin
The Abortion Industry: A Study in Predation
Title of this article from Family Research Center.
The rarity of clickbaity articles on Google and your incredible ability to find them aside there is no abortion industry. There are no abortion factories or organizations that promote abortion. In fact I am unaware of a single argument from any pro choice advocate or organizations that promotes abortion. I am aware of arguments that promote the personal freedom and bodily autonomy of women. If you are aware of any example of this I await your correction with great anticipation.
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#264
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@secularmerlin
Yes, everyone knows that the FIRST link in a google search is just clickbait. Also, this is it's address:

©2021 Family Research Council
801 G Street NW
Washington, D.C. 20001


Please debunk the information on the site instead of claiming your baseless assertions to be reasonable.
#265
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@Benjamin
I don't suppose you would like to summarize your objections? I understand you read a thing that you like but the fact remains that no organization in that I am aware of focuses on abortion procedures rather than simply offering them IN ADDITION to other services and no organizations promote the performance of abortions regardless of their advocacy for their availability. 

Again a summery of why this is incorrect would be greatly appreciated the strength or veracity of your cited article asside.

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#266
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@secularmerlin
Similarly, the National Abortion Federation (NAB) features soft-toned colors and photos of warmly smiling, invariably attractive, and oddly joyous-looking young women. Again, the descriptions of abortion offered range from the clinically technical to the soothingly mellifluous.
If such a thing exists then your claims are wrong.
#267
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@Benjamin
If such a thing exists then your claims are wrong.
Agreed. Now you just need some proof that this is the case. Perhaps something other than imagery interpreted through some personal aesthetic which we may both disagree about the meaning of and still both be wrong about the motivations of the creator of said imagery.
#268
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@Benjamin
It occurs to me that the road you are heading down is much more likely to lead to an indictment of capitalism as opposed to women's reproductive rights. This is not I think a mistake on your part. I think it is an illusion. Let us nevertheless review your argument and discuss. Abortions are sold as a service. Services are offered by businesses. A business is more interested in their bottom line than in a woman's right to choose (not to have an abortion) and therefore businesses in general that offer the service make their service as appealing as possible. This has the effect (intended or not) of making abortion seem like an attractive alternative. (If I have misunderstood any part of your argument please feel free to correct me)

This is of course the advertising you get from any good or service under a capitalist system. That isn't in and of itself a bad thing but the only alternative is to introduce government oversight of the "industry" in question. For example warning labels being required for cigarettes and other toxic products. 

So the question becomes what government oversight should be applied and to what end?
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#269
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@secularmerlin
I am not advocating for a specific policy. I am simply pointing at the fact that abortion is unethical. Which you have yet to reject.

I do not care which banner supports it, the government, FBI, PP, capitalism, whatever - as long as it is immoral it cannot be just.
#270
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@Benjamin
Why is it unethical?