Abortion and human rights

Author: Benjamin

Posts

Total: 355
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@secularmerlin
That was beautiful ebuc. Truly it was.
Thank you and that is good to hear, since my reply to Weakear Edge lack some grammatical clariy, even tho he was able to get the the primary points of the reply.

Thank you also Wedge
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@secularmerlin
Again, your own increduality does not inform an actual argument, please provide a specific objection. 
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Theweakeredge
None but that sentience is ill define and difficult to measure or quantify. 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Theweakeredge
IF that being is aware that they exist, THEN they have sentience. Having partial sentience might be something like having a notion that you exist. 
Perhaps you could provide some real-life examples?
Do any animals qualify?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ebuc
The woman steers all matters regarding the fetus, unless she ask for others input.
END. OF. MOTHERFUCKING. STORY.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
I do not treat my dog as a contentious actor for example even though it seems to show signs of happiness and unhappiness, memory retention, even property rights (her toys are hers and my shoes are mine).
Great point.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
IF the right to life trumps the right to bodily autonomy THEN failure to donate a kidney is immoral. 
If you have two kidneys you're automatically a MONSTER.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@3RU7AL
Ebuc......The woman steers all matters regarding the fetus, unless she ask for others input.
3ru....END. OF. MOTHERFUCKING. STORY.
Ha, dont all rational, logical, common sense people with moral integrity wish for.

End-time-for-humanity-on-Earth, because of culture stupidity.

Ex
...1} ex millions who believe erratic climate change { 200's } is hoax, < Global Warming { 1990's } < Greenhouse effect  {1980's }
...I have a new link for this one I can share privately for friends who do not exhibit stupiditly listed in the following set......

...2} 74 million who voted for the king of hoaxers, Trumpet, ---and that does not include the same stupidity that did not bother to vote at all---, and those world wide of the same bigoted stupidity mind-set,

....3} those who believe nukes are the answer, even tho nukes to not take any greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere,
......not to mention long list of detrimental side effects of nukes ex hydrogen bombs......

.....4} those who believe humaniites current existing systems will sustain any rate of  growth of human population on Earth, because it is Gods will for humans to proliferate faster than rabbits,

...5} that masks have absolutely no effect on deterring viral infections, or not enough to be of any significance,

...6} other I cant recall off-hand
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ebuc
3} those who believe nukes are the answer, even tho nukes to not take any greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere,
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@3RU7AL
IF the right to life trumps the right to bodily autonomy THEN failure to donate a kidney is immoral. 
If you have two kidneys you're automatically a MONSTER.
More to the point you are a monster if you do not make your blood/bone marrow/kidney/liver/womb available up to the point at which a doctor (who presumably is moral and therefore will err on the side of using your body if the exact point is unclear) determines it would endanger your life in order to maintain the bodies and lives of others even if this process takes eighteen years or more of your life with serious physical mental and financial consequences to you.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
Kinda like this,

secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@3RU7AL
Rehabilitation. Cut down on repeat offenders. Horrifying but not necessarily more so than any given penal system at its worst.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
Cut down on repeat offenders.
Nice.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@3RU7AL


Chernyoble used graphite to absorb the heat and so your above modular breeder fission reactors replaces graphite with liquied molten salt reactors { SMR } ---see Indias hope for future development f SMR breeder reactors---

When the humans  pulled the rods out of graphite for too long of  time, they caused the explosion.

..."Sensible safeguards. Protactinium separations provide a pathway for obtaining highly attractive weapons-grade uranium 233 from thorium fuel cycles. The difficulties of safeguarding commercial spent fuel reprocessing are significant for any type of fuel cycle, and thorium is no exception.
.....Reprocessing creates unique safeguard challenges, particularly in India, which is not a member of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
...There is little to be gained by calling thorium fuel cycles intrinsically proliferation-resistant. The best way to realize nuclear power from thorium fuel cycles is to acknowledge their unique proliferation vulnerabilities, and to adequately safeguard them against theft and misuse.......

Abort nuclear fusion and fission in the name of human rights, to live in a world without nuclear dangers that include nuclear weapons proliferation




3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@ebuc
I'm not convinced that sheet-metal wind-chimes are going to help us dispose of nuclear waste.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@fauxlaw
Our personal responsibility demands we recognize the rights of others with equal regard as to our own.
I'm glad we can agree on this.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,920
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@3RU7AL
I'm not convinced that sheet-metal wind-chimes are going to help us dispose of nuclear waste.
My error as that is one thing they do not do. They do not eat nuclear waste products.

Building more nukes to eat the nuclear waste is an option that I do not support.

The best answers Ive seen are solidification in glass like end product, with option to some send back to sun from whence it all came.

Abort nuclear power and spread human rights to live safer lives on Earth.


Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@Benjamin
Somebody already did:
Might be, but they have not changed the declaration of human rights to use the word "person".
Why does that matter? Seriously though, why does the pedantic perspective matter here? 


P1. IF  a fetus is a human it has moral value just like the mother
P2. The right to life is more important than the right to privacy. 
C. IF a fetus is a human then we must choose the lesser evil - banning abortion (exceptions being  when the danger is too high)
No.. I don't accept that premise. That humans have inherent moral value. I've already explained why fetuses don't share the same value that borne or adult humans do. Please object to that instead of repeating yourself. Furthermore, a right to bodily autonomy is very different from the right to privacy. That's like saying the right to keep your organs is the "right of privacy. Blatantally false equivalence there. 


I am saying that if abortion is immoral then it doesn't matter that women's rights are broken, as the right to life is more basic and fundamental. Also, we are prohibiting an industry, we will not in any way directly apply force on the mother. If abortion (exceptions excluded) are banned that is not "forcing" the mother to carry to term - nature forces her, we simply don't allow society and science to defy nature in an immoral way.
Appealing to nature - that's a fallacy called the naturalistic fallacy bud, I'm sure you knew that though. Furthermore, the mother had a choice, to abort the fetus, and you want to stop that by law, that essentially forcing the impregnated to carry the fetus. Please don't play pedantic games with me here, this is trying to strip people of rights to their body. Whether you want to acknowledge that or not is your buisness. 


 I do not think humans have intrinsic value
Still, society must ACT like humans have intrinsic value. If not, we get slavery, holocaust, oppression of women and children and lastly persecution based on religion.
A pragmatic argument? I don't see how that applies philosophically. You can't justify anything like that, it becomes an infinite regress, again, the sperm, the skin cells.


a speciest lens that made us only care for humans and not every species equally
Interesting question. But it is survival of the fittest, isn't it? Since animals can't really agree to a moral contract, AS A SPECIES, they cannot have the same moral considerations by your own definition, as they cannot respect the well being of others. Also, they are not part of society but live in the wild.
I don't think you understand how that works, we have a moral value for animals that is either none or much beneath humans, my point is that IF we were to use this framework without personhood or suffering, every species would be on equal moral ground as humans. Not a neccessarily bad take, but its the one you would be accepting if you disregard my arguments.


Are people not allowed to change their mind regarding such a huge decision and future impact on their own well-being?
Yes, they can change their mind. But action is not the same as though. I cannot be arrested for "wanting" someone to be dead, but I can from killing.
You have failed to demonstrate that fetuses have value or that it is murdering to abort them. You have gone on as if I've accepted the premise that they have value and that are being "murdered" yet I've made it clear I do not.


it is not moral to force a woman to donate, their body, mental state, and possibly their life if they do not agree to have a child.
Agreed. No force should be applied to her in addition to the burden she already has. And when she gives birth she is free to leave the child to be adopted or taken care of, as such, we can compensate her and also help the innocent child. This is, at the very least, the only moral choice in the 10% of cases after your 13 weeks brain-idea.
That isn't how society works, neither is how it works philosophically - you have already taken a large amount from the woman. Imagine this- "You will be tortured, you will be forced to have a camera shoved down your throat, and then you will be forced to feed it nutrients for 9 months, don't worry though, afterwards you'll get money and you can get rid of it." Please have basic decency.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Theweakeredge
Furthermore, a right to bodily autonomy is very different from the right to privacy.
The two would seem to be integrally linked.
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
On a surface level maybe.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Theweakeredge
On a surface level maybe.
If I have no bodily privacy (medical privacy) then I have no bodily sovereignty (bodily autonomy).

Nobody needs to know my genetic information.

Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
Um... not necessarily true - I could see you naked and that would not entail any forfeit of your anatomical rights. I am not saying that the right to privacy isn't important, I'm saying it isn't necessarily linked to bodily autonomy. 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Theweakeredge
Um... not necessarily true - I could see you naked and that would not entail any forfeit of your anatomical rights. I am not saying that the right to privacy isn't important, I'm saying it isn't necessarily linked to bodily autonomy. 
Did you force me to take my clothes off in front of you?

That would seem to be a gross violation of BOTH my personal (bodily) privacy and my personal (bodily) sovereignty.
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@3RU7AL
well yes, but it could also be the case that I force you to show me your phone, as I said, they can be linked, but they aren't necessarily. Also... no that isn't really a bodily autonomy violation. If I just see you naked, a breach of your privacy not your autonomy, you would have to insert things as you have for it to be so, and that wasn't the original analogy.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Theweakeredge
well yes, but it could also be the case that I force you to show me your phone,
How is your demand for my personal property (and or information) not a violation of my sovereignty?

as I said, they can be linked, but they aren't necessarily.
Can you violate one without violating the other?

Also... no that isn't really a bodily autonomy violation. If I just see you naked, a breach of your privacy not your autonomy,
Doesn't my bodily autonomy extend to protect information about my body?

you would have to insert things as you have for it to be so, and that wasn't the original analogy.
You seem to have a frighteningly narrow view of "bodily autonomy".