Crimes Mafia - DP2

Author: Bullish

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drafterman
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@Speedrace
I'm saying your arguments about your role assume you're telling the truth about your affiliation
No they don't. I could absolutely just be mafia saying I have a mafia-named role but am trying to peddle it as town due to the idiosyncracies of this game. My role is completely affiliation agnostic.

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@Danielle
Ok then nvm I misunderstood what I thought your claim was. Now I want your claim and am perfectly willing to lynch you to get it if you insist. Especially if it's not that useful. 
If you want my claim: pressure Lunatic.

If you want to lynch me, vote me.

Danielle
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VTL drafterman 
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@Vader
Drafter is lying. I gave Lunatic weed
What am I lying about, exactly?
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@drafterman
If you want to know the aim of all of this is, pressure Lunatic. I currently do not have any additional information that could be used to support a vote on Lunatic.
I'd rather press you. You keep hinting that you know something, but refuse to say what it is until we get a claim from Lunatic. Do you know something that you can definitely tell us, but only after Lunatic gives his claim, or will Lunatic's claim somehow unlock information that you don't currently have?

Right, but he didn't claim bribery, he claimed corruption. Bribery is a crime. Corruption is just a generic colloquialism.
Quoting from DP1: "corruption- Accepting bribes for favors"

As in, he is this subset of corruption. If all you did was look back at the summaries posted later in DP1, you might not have seen this. Why should I ignore the specification within the same post where he claimed?

Maybe it is. But if you don't think I'm scum then it's also anti-town to be voting me.
I didn't say I don't think you're scum. I said I don't understand why you'd take this route as scum. I'm absolutely willing to be convinced that there's merit to it, but I haven't seen that yet.
Speedrace
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@drafterman
No they don't. I could absolutely just be mafia saying I have a mafia-named role but am trying to peddle it as town due to the idiosyncracies of this game. My role is completely affiliation agnostic.
Or you "could" be mafia just lying altogether. So clearly they do
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@Bullish
drafterman - 5/5 - Lunatic, whiteflame, Speed, Supa, Danielle
lunatic - 1/5 - drafterman

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@Danielle
@Vader
@whiteflame
Somebody unvote so we can get Lunatic to confirm what Supa said
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@drafterman
I misread the statement. I interpreted it as something else after re-reading. Just woke up and just a bit blurry ATM

Unvote
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@Bullish
Oh, speed unvoted

drafterman - 3/5 - Lunatic, whiteflame, Danielle
lunatic - 1/5 - drafterman

Vader
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@Speedrace
He literally said he got weed. I confirmed I gave him weed, which a PR. I am unaware of what weed represents, so I asked Lunatic what role he got from it
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Lol I didn't even realize we had 5/5 votes but I don't care, I'd hammer. I'm not playing these games. 
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@Speedrace
Somebody unvote so we can get Lunatic to confirm what Supa said
Assuming he hasn't been lynched, I'll get off of this train to do this. I think Draft's vote count includes you when you unvoted, so he should still be fine.

Unvote
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@whiteflame
If you want to know the aim of all of this is, pressure Lunatic. I currently do not have any additional information that could be used to support a vote on Lunatic.
I'd rather press you. You keep hinting that you know something, but refuse to say what it is until we get a claim from Lunatic. Do you know something that you can definitely tell us, but only after Lunatic gives his claim, or will Lunatic's claim somehow unlock information that you don't currently have?
I don't know anything. That's your inference not my implication. I want to know something: Lunatic's role. The only information I have to give is my full claim. But I want Lunatic's first.


Right, but he didn't claim bribery, he claimed corruption. Bribery is a crime. Corruption is just a generic colloquialism.
Quoting from DP1: "corruption- Accepting bribes for favors"

As in, he is this subset of corruption. If all you did was look back at the summaries posted later in DP1, you might not have seen this. Why should I ignore the specification within the same post where he claimed?
I did see that. But his crime should then be "bribery" not "corruption." Corruption isn't a crime or a class of crimes it's just a colloquial phrase. This is my sticking point.


Maybe it is. But if you don't think I'm scum then it's also anti-town to be voting me.
I didn't say I don't think you're scum. I said I don't understand why you'd take this route as scum. I'm absolutely willing to be convinced that there's merit to it, but I haven't seen that yet.
Right, generally you vote people as scum when you have a reason to think they're scum. What's you're reason for thinking I'm scum?
Speedrace
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@Vader
He literally said he got weed. I confirmed I gave him weed, which a PR. I am unaware of what weed represents, so I asked Lunatic what role he got from it
Ohhh lol
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drafterman - 2/5 - Lunatic, Danielle
lunatic - 1/5 - drafterman


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@Danielle
Lol I didn't even realize we had 5/5 votes but I don't care, I'd hammer. I'm not playing these games. 
Right there with you. If Draft would rather be lynched than claim, then I'll push to lynch at this stage, though if we can get more information this DP before the lynch, I'll push for that.
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@Speedrace
I'm pretty sure Lunatic doesn't smoke weed IRL so he is probably telling the truth, but let me reiterate that Supa giving him weed proves nothing. Supa could easily be scum, especially if there is no theme split and he's the one who was kinda persistent that there was no theme split. 
drafterman
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As far as why I was inactive last phase, that's nonya bidness. IRL intervened and, last I checked, RL doesn't care about anyone's affiliation.
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@whiteflame
though if we can get more information this DP before the lynch, I'll push for that.
You absolutely can get more information this DP.

You know what information you can get? Lunatic's claim. It seems that your only objection to getting Lunatic's claim is the fact I said I wanted it.

Danielle
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Plot twist: giving you pot makes you lazy (role blocker?) 🤔
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@whiteflame
If I told you I would claim after Congress certifies the electoral votes would you then rush to DC to stop it?
Danielle
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I can't edit my last post but just to clarify, pot does not make everyone lazy  *takes a hit at 9:21 am* 
Speedrace
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@Danielle
Plot twist: giving you pot makes you lazy (role blocker?) 🤔
lol but why would Supa claim that. Also I lean to Supa being scum because he doesn't know what the pot does. Dunno why he'd do that as scum
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@drafterman
I don't know anything. That's your inference not my implication. I want to know something: Lunatic's role. The only information I have to give is my full claim. But I want Lunatic's first.
So, you don't know anything, but for some reason, getting a claim from Lunatic triggers your capacity to claim? Something about knowing his role provides you with sufficient information to say what you are and why that matters? You keep saying that you'd be happy to explain something as soon as he claims, so how are you not implying that information about his role somehow clarifies something about yours or allows you to do something that you can't do without it? Maybe you don't have information, but you have a reason for doing this that you are not providing.

I did see that. But his crime should then be "bribery" not "corruption." Corruption isn't a crime or a class of crimes it's just a colloquial phrase. This is my sticking point.
Not sure why the specification in his post doesn't clarify that his role is a crime, but I guess that's your interpretation, one we're not on the same page about.

Right, generally you vote people as scum when you have a reason to think they're scum. What's you're reason for thinking I'm scum?
Frankly, I didn't have any strong reason to believe you were scum beyond any strong unwillingness to claim. You've doubled down on that unwillingness since I voted for you. I'm still struggling with the reason why and I think it could be justified, but I'm not seeing you justify it. I'm just seeing you continuously imply that there are justifications, and I just have to push on Lunatic to find them... somehow.

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@drafterman
I have no objections to pursuing a role claim from Lunatic. My issue, and I've pointed this out several times, is that you appear to have some reason to want it before you provide your own. I'm not sure why, and every time I probe for it, you dance away from an answer and claim that all will be revealed if I just get that claim, as though it unlocks some magical door that somehow makes your claim sensible. If there's some reason for you to wait for Lunatic to claim first, I want to know what it is. I don't want vague allusions, I want actual reasons. If you've got them, give them. I'll take those in lieu of an actual claim, but you're clearly hiding something.
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@whiteflame
I don't know anything. That's your inference not my implication. I want to know something: Lunatic's role. The only information I have to give is my full claim. But I want Lunatic's first.
So, you don't know anything, but for some reason, getting a claim from Lunatic triggers your capacity to claim?
No, it triggers my desire to claim.

Something about knowing his role provides you with sufficient information to say what you are and why that matters?
We won't know his role unless he's lynched and flips or survived until the end claim. It's less knowing his role and more seeing what he claims his role is. And him deciding what to claim is important to me.

You keep saying that you'd be happy to explain something as soon as he claims, so how are you not implying that information about his role somehow clarifies something about yours or allows you to do something that you can't do without it? Maybe you don't have information, but you have a reason for doing this that you are not providing.
Yes, that would be more accurate I suppose. I don't have any game related information to provide other than my claim. My motivations and logic I have to provide as well, but it's all part in parcel.


I did see that. But his crime should then be "bribery" not "corruption." Corruption isn't a crime or a class of crimes it's just a colloquial phrase. This is my sticking point.
Not sure why the specification in his post doesn't clarify that his role is a crime, but I guess that's your interpretation, one we're not on the same page about.
My character is a crime in itself. Not a superset label of generically criminal behavior of which specific crimes are a part of. What about yours?


Right, generally you vote people as scum when you have a reason to think they're scum. What's you're reason for thinking I'm scum?
Frankly, I didn't have any strong reason to believe you were scum beyond any strong unwillingness to claim. You've doubled down on that unwillingness since I voted for you. I'm still struggling with the reason why and I think it could be justified, but I'm not seeing you justify it. I'm just seeing you continuously imply that there are justifications, and I just have to push on Lunatic to find them... somehow.
Allow me to present a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you had a messenger type role. This role allows you to give other people messages at night. Not an uncommon role here. Let's say the mod has added a twist that says only Town people actually receive the message: Scum does not. Also, you don't get any independent verification of whether your message was received.

You send a message to someone else and want to know if they received it. How do you proceed? If you full claim first, you give the game away; of course they'll say they got the message. You need them to claim first to have anything matter.
Danielle
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@Speedrace
lol but why would Supa claim that. 

Because it adds to one's credibility if they can prove their role. No one can prove their affiliation but proving your role is a lean town point in most people's minds that you have to consider along with other things. I will again defer to Pie as the mafia messenger in a recent game. Fortunately I was killed during the night so I didn't live long enough to "town confirm" him in the day phase after he messaged me because I would have been wrong. 

I don't have a read on Supa yet but I just know that I probably did give Luna weed. Luna never mentions weed in everyday life, at least not that I recall.  
Danielle
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*he probably did give Luna weed
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@drafterman
Based on your last response, I will at least wait to hear from Lunatic before making a call. I won't draw attention to my reasons for doing so.

My character is a crime in itself. Not a superset label of generically criminal behavior of which specific crimes are a part of. What about yours?
I gave my full character claim, so no, it's not given as a subset. That being said, my claim isn't a subset of a larger category of generically criminal behavior, so I wouldn't have that label. Would you?