XMAS 2020 Mafia - Day Phase 1
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I think I'm fine with a no lynch result at this point.
I think we are approaching some consensus on theme so if somebody feels like they are way outside the "Xmas story characters" mellieu they should probably be saying as much now (without necessarily claiming)
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@Bullish
All my reads are slight reads so that's not enough to put a vote on someone.
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@oromagi
Incorrect, my PM states Santa Clause from The Santa Clause
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@Vader
All my reads are slight reads so that's not enough to put a vote on someone.
The problems is you think there is some magic objective bar that a person needs to reach in order to push for their lynch.
Rather, you take the scummiest person you have and you get them lynched. That is the optimal play.
Going through the DP rn.
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@LikeMagic
This is what is frustrating me. NO ONE is use to his play-style. He is new, evolving, and has only played a few games on this site, per what everyone has said. I pointed out behaviors that scum employs in games, which he has objectively engaged in. You can say that is not enough for you to lynch him, but to claim it is because I don't understand his meta is nonsense. No one knows his meta.
He's played in enough games where I can say he is sticking to his town meta.
Avatar Last Airbender- Town
Paranoia- 3rd party
MCU Tools- Town
The Stand- Scum
Anime Waifu's- Town
That's 5 games he's been in fairly recently, and he's played literally every affiliation in that time, so I figure he's pretty readable at this point. The reason I am saying you don't understand his meta is because EVERYONE has had the same frustration with reading Whiteflame for the same reason you have. Everyone has scum read him for this. Me and Danielle did in Avatar for example, where he was 10x more passive than this. Elminster (Mikal) voiced your exact same concerns in MCU weapons for example, and was so confident whiteflame was scum because of his passive/fluffy nature that he got himself lynched to try and prove the point, and he was STILL wrong. Whiteflame is a pretty fluffy/passive player, and is learning and getting better, but I am not going to scum read him for behaviors I have seen him display as town.
He's literally never played as scum on this site.
Early on in the day phase I told you that he has, and even went as far as to tell you what to look out for when he is scum based on the stand mafia where he was scum. I am slightly offended that you apparently didn't even read that part of dialogue if you were so tunnel vision on whiteflame.
It seems as an outsider who hasn't played with him before I can just as easily have a more objective perspective than all of you. Also, I am playing inconsistent with my meta as town or scum. Thereby exhibiting the limits of meta analysis. it's literally a game of manipulation.
If I didn't just watch a townie kill himself to prove he was scum for the same reasons, just for whiteflame to be town, I might have bit this hook. I'd say in general the behavior isn't pro town, I am not dis-agreeing with you. Quite the opposite. I think you are hitting the nail on the head about the behavior not progressing the game or being particularly helpful. However I've learned a long time ago that anti-town play doesn't mean anti-town. Greyparrot for example, I've raged at him for playing scummily many times before, and he simply refuses to change. If the player won't change, you have to change your mindset to adapt to their style or you will continuously get mis-lynches. That said, I do think whiteflames overall gameplay is improving, and he had appropriately called out scum in the last game, just wasn't working as hard to convince others of the read. Whiteflame will be easier to read as the game progresses, but so far his behavior is consistent with what I've seen in recent games, so it's just a null tell for me.
Anyway, what are your thoughts on Drafter?
Kind of suspicious of him, more of a gut read atm based on his reads. He seemed to want to appear to put a lot of effort in, but when actually reading what he wrote, his takes are very simple. Only thing I really agreed with him on is that we should change SOP's regarding claiming when hated. That said, I am naturally suspect of anybody that excuses bullish's behavior this game, and he dismissed it rather easily. Drafter is known for buddying as scum also. If I had to put a top scum pool down right now, it would contain bullish and drafter for sure.
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@drafterman
The problems is you think there is some magic objective bar that a person needs to reach in order to push for their lynch.
Yes. There is a bar for me that is set. I am not willling to take the risk on a lynch I'm not comfortable in doing, while risking losing a person and being at more of a disadvantage because of Hated. So I disagree with your method
to the extent we care about Meta: The only time I have ever been this outspoken and persistent in a scum read is when TUF (Luna) was scum in lover's mafia. Maybe when White likely flips scum people will give more credence to my reads going forward.
As I said last game: We do not need to lynch the Hated.All Hated Town does is make MYLO/LYLO happen one phase earlier than otherwise.But, guess what, when you mislynch a townie you're making MYLO/LYLO happen one phase earlier than otherwise.So lynching the Hated or letting it live is mechanically the same.
I mean ig? But if we let the hated live we must then be very careful about preventing a quick hammer by mafia.
With Croc, that's literally what we were planning to do until he got killed by Pie.
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@Vader
Incorrect, my PM states Santa Clause from The Santa Clause
I've never seen the movie. I was under the impression that the clause was some legal obligation to impersonate Santa. What actor plays your character in the movie?
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@LikeMagic
to the extent we care about Meta: The only time I have ever been this outspoken and persistent in a scum read is when TUF (Luna) was scum in lover's mafia. Maybe when White likely flips scum people will give more credence to my reads going forward.
Your basing this off of being right one time? Holy crap.
I have gotten pretty lucky with my reads lately as well, but I am pretty sure I'd be spun as an asshole if I tried to use everytime I was right in the past to prove I am right now lol. For as many times as I have been right I have probably been wrong in reads as well. I don't think anyone takes this argument as convincing, but man, if you end up being wrong here it's gonna be hard not to reference you back to this post lol.
I am Santa Clause.
uhhh...
I kinda sus this a bit. There is NO WAY Santa isn't a power role of some kind. Claiming this off the bat is anti-town in the greatest sense.
Gonna keep reading and see how the situation develops from here.
Vote Count
Water (Pie, Bullish) -- 2/7 votes
No Lynch (whiteflame, Supa) -- 2/7 votes
Bullish (Lunatic, that1user, Water) -- 3/7 votes
whiteflame (LikeMagic, drafterman) -- 2/7 votes
One hour left in the day phase.
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@Lunatic
Willing to drop White for now. But I feel more certain than ever that he's scum. I will reiterate that the basis is not passivity. I have however fully outlined all of the multiple behavioral things he has done that are scummy and will not rehash them.
I am willing to focus on drafter. He is seeming more and more scummy.
If you lynch hated TOWN it's mechanically the same.But Magic's affiliation isn't for sure town. So it's not mechanically the same. I should know cause I put a hated scum in one of my games once.
This is true. I'm townreading Magic currently though, will keep reading.
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@LikeMagic
I am willing to focus on drafter. He is seeming more and more scummy.
I can meet you in the middle and pressure drafter here. Especially after he jumped on the whiteflame wagon, considering he's played many games recently with whiteflame he should be in tune with his meta. If we lynch drafter here and he is scum, I want to note that he buddied bullish, and hopped on what seemed like an easy mislynch train, both are tells of drafter when he is scum..
vtl drafterman.
That1 is sus for bring up jester. Bringing up 3rd parties is a classic scum tell.i mean, we already have an anti town role (innocent child) the chances of having a 3rd party right now aren't as low as the chances of having a two anti town roles.
Uhhhh no.
That1 isn't sus for bringing up Jester necessarily. It's very well a possibility for town to keep in mind. What, are we supposed to assume there are no 3rd parties ever?
Nor is Water right here that innocent child is anti-town. Seems very pro town to me.
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@Speedrace
wanna help pressure drafterman?
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@Lunatic
Cool with me
VTL drafterman
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@oromagi
Tim Allen
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@MisterChris
To be clear I'm not Santa Claus, I'm Santa CLAUSE from the movie The Santa Clause
Vote Count
Water (Pie, Bullish) -- 2/7 votes
No Lynch (whiteflame, Supa) -- 2/7 votes
Bullish (that1user, Water) -- 2/7 votes
whiteflame (LikeMagic, drafterman) -- 2/7 votes
drafterman (Lunatic, Speed) -- 2/7 votes
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@Vader
Like Oro said, the Santa Clause is a legal obligation, not a person. You can't "be" Santa Clause, only Santa Claus.
This might be a huge scumslip
"Santa Clause" isn't a character, it is a legal term.
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@Vader
The movie is called "The Santa Clause" but there is no character named Santa Clause as far as I can tell. Tim Allen gets recruited to be Santa Claus, the clause being a pun on the rule of recruitment, I supposed.
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@oromagi
The move is "The Santa Clause" which refers to a legally binding arrangement a person enters into upon donning Santa's suit and entering his sleight. They waive any and all rights to any previous identity, real or implied, and fully accepts the duties and responsibilities of Santa Claus in perpetuity until such a time that the wearer becomes unable to do so by either accident or design.
Supa is claiming to be a piece of legalese.
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@Lunatic
Your basing this off of being right one time? Holy crap.
Don't be an asshole. I have explained my reasoning and my analysis. I am not basing my read and argument on having been right about you.
I was at 4/7, which I feel is sufficient amount of pressure to give a character claim. I will not reveal my role in DP1 and I will stick by that notion. In general, only if there is sufficient pressure should you give a claim. I hate the new direction of popcorning character claims, yes, but if Whiteflame and drafter were to town and mafia was not on my vote, if ideally it was 3 person mafia, I could be lynched.Again, I am opposed to mass char claims in DP1, I think it helps mafia more than anything, but if pressured to do so, I will
Yeah no, I don't buy this shit.
If Supa were against popcorning claims he'd argue against it vehemently. And with a role like SANTA CLAUS he sure as hell wouldn't throw it out there haphazardly without a care in the world. Not to mention 2/4 votes he had on him were just activity votes from Oromagi and Pie. Supa is smart, he could AT LEAST fake character claim something random to prevent mafia from thinking anything of him.
I feel this is 1 of three things:
- him playing horribly as town
- him being mafia aligned as Santa
- him being mafia aligned and fake claiming.
Leaning towards the latter end of things.