I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me.

Author: Stephen

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#31
ethang5
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@rosends
Your truth.
There is no such thing as personal truth. That is liberal PC nonsense.

I asked the question and your answer was useless to me
You asked me where something was. I told you where it was. How "useful" that was to you is of no concern to me.

so your initial claim remains unsupported.
My claim is fine and does not need your validation.

All I'm pointing out is the same response as you made to my citation of the Talmud.
Untrue. You said, "saying "thank you" for a condition admitted to be "worse" doesn't necessarily follow." Someone other than a Jew who holds Jewish sages in esteem saying thank you does follow. The ones "admitting" it to be worse have no baring on our opinion.

I didn't take it as an insult, only as a comment as accurate and relevant as mine about the gospels.
I made no statement about your comment's accuracy or relevance, as both are irrelevant. You either accept my answer or you don't. Either way is your choice.

If you can't handle someone rejecting what you think of as "The bible" then you need a thicker skin.
How did I "not handle" it? You said you rejected it and I went, "Eh." Were you wishing for a fight? The thickness of my skin is irrelevant. I am not hurt or angry. I'm just wondering why you're so bent, and why you're thinking I somehow "rejected" your claim.

If someone sent you here to pick a fight, go back and tell them Ethan was not interested.
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@ethang5



I was never asked AND YOU tell me   "Jesus didn't  need my permission".
He didn't.

Didn't need  my permission for what? 



And that Peter  & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are all  wrong and simply telling lies? Because  if that is the case then I am in  agreement with you.
Peter  & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are not referring to you.

 Then who?  



What is mine is mine.  Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with? 
 you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.
   Yes you keep saying this over and over. So where is your evidence for that claim?  And now  you are telling me that Jesus didn't "TAKE AWAY"  the sins of the world as  the scriptures will have us all believe. 


you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.
Yes you have said that a billion times now and offered not a single piece of biblical evidence for your claim..... AGAIN!!! where is you biblical evidence for that claim

I'm not here to teach you bible doctrine.
So you are simply yet another lying Christian caught out by your own tripe and bilge. It doesn't say that anywhere in the whole of the bible does it? 




Jesus either  died for our sins or he didn't  which is it?
Read your bible. I'm not here to school you.
So that is another none answer  that you have chosen. Very good. Those to me count as you not knowing fk all that which  you now are pretending to know about. . And I have read the bible and it tells an entirely different story to the bull shite you are trying to feed " we".



But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous  torturous and agonising  death of a blood sacrifice  THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!!
Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.
Not according to your scriptures.  But you don't know your own scriptures do you.



Then why are you even arguing that he didn't need my permission to  take responsibility for my sins  and die for them ? 
He didn't. His not needing your permission to die does not mean your sins have been forgiven.

Then why are you even  here  arguing  on my thread. Is all you had to do was -   -  tell me my sins were not forgiven and that the bible is totally wrong on the matter of forgiveness of sins and Jesus didn't sacrifice himself to take away the "sins of the world" , and then thread would have been finished.
 But as it is, you have raised so many more questions.    The scriptures have a way of doing that, you know. I.E. I put a question, you lie about it and then backtrack  causing more questions to be raised. 



And  are you denying too that Jesus didn't pay for our sins with  his blood sacrifice as Christians and the scriptures  are always at pains to tell us?
You aren't a Christian.
That wasn't my question. And I was Christened over 65 years ago. 



And no biblical evidence to support that claim.  You have said  "nothing was taken from me" and again you are back to talking about  "Jesus' payment for me" WHAT PAYMENT AND WHAT FOR? 
I never said Jesus made any payment for you. Nothing has been taken from you and I haven't the foggiest idea why you think something has.

Because the scriptures say Jesus PAID for my sins and has " taken way the sins of the world"  Are you denying the scripters?


you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?  
If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?

Who said I don't.  I believe a lot of what is written in the bible. I have no reason not to. So AGAIN! where in the scriptures doe it say that? 




You don't know do you.
Again. Does it matter to you?

So you have no evidence to support yet ANOTHER one of you wild claims because YOU DON'T KNOW!  

.

.One minute Jesus is a   "selfless hero"  that doesn't need my permission to take  my responsibilities away from me , and the next your telling me " nothing was taken away from me".   
Which doesn't mean He DID take  your responsibilities away from you. 
But the scriptures say he did!!!!! . Are they wrong then? 
This is what happens all the time when lying Christians LIKE YOU find themselves on the backfoot after digging big holes full of lies,  you start denying what even the scriptures clearly state. How fkn pathetic is that !!!!?



Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes.  But he's already done it and he's dead.
You still have your sin.
 

Ok so then according to you,  and contrary to the scriptures and all four evangelists, I still have my sin and  Jesus didn't "take away  the sins of the world"  sins?<<, That requires nothing more than a yes or no.



Well not according to you above or the scriptures. As I have said,  and you ignored -   my sins were washed away AND  a blood sacrifice paid for by Jesus and his "heroic selflessness" sacrifice.   You really are in a right muddle now aren't you. 
Not the scriptures in the Bible.

So what is it that you are backpaddling on now?   
So [A] Do I still have my sins as you clearly state over and over thereby making the scriptures are wrong?  -  OR - [B] my sins have been paid for by the "heroic and selfless" sacrifice Jesus made as the scriptures clearly state making you wrong? 



Did Jesus die for my sins or not? Have Christians been lying for over 2000 years as to why god sent his  "ONLY son" to earth?
Have you even ever spoken to Jesus?
No . Have you?  And that wasn't the question.


And  by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object.  You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you. 
It's funny how  certain are 
About what?   You are forgetting who it was that was asking the questions on MY thread in the first place, aren't you.  Let me clue you into something, asking questions is not a sure sign of certainty, it is quite the opposite. 



your poor reading comprehension.
Don't you Christians ever get fed up of wheeling out that old shite of an excuse when you have been put in check.

Listen , I can read what is written in  the bible.  You on the other hand have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread and are even now denying what the scriptures and the evangelist themselves say . 

YOU<, After pages of now pointless argument,  are now saying  that I  "still have my sins and nothing was taken away"  and that I will pay for them if I reject the already paid payment and  without ONE single piece of supporting evidence!!!!!!!. and no explanation of  how I will pay for them.

The scriptures< on the other hand don't say this at all!  If fact they completely & utterly contradict YOUR UNSUPPORTED claims that -  I " will die IF "  I don't accept his sacrifice? 












#33
rosends
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@ethang5

There is no such thing as personal truth. That is liberal PC nonsense.
That's an interesting claim. Let's consider the implications. You made a statement out how a theological position is in "the bible." I pointed out how it is in what you call the bible but which I do not so it is a truth of your religious system, not mine. If there is only one truth then you insist that my understanding of the authority of certain texts is wrong and you deny my the right to a distinct and acceptable belief system. Would it make sense if I said, "OK, there is no personal truth and your claim is flat out wrong"? Sure, you can say you don't care about my opinion, and I would hope you don't, but the arrogance of my assertion should seem to you as problematic. If it doesn't, and you are ok with people going around and denying other people the opportunity to have valid faith systems then that, by itself, speaks volumes.

You asked me where something was. I told you where it was. How "useful" that was to you is of no concern to me.

My claim is fine and does not need your validation.
Your claim IS fine. It is a claim. And, agreed, it does not need my validation. Nor is it persuasive or useful in a discussion if it relies on a definition that we don't agree on.
Untrue. You said, "saying "thank you" for a condition admitted to be "worse" doesn't necessarily follow." Someone other than a Jew who holds Jewish sages in esteem saying thank you does follow. The ones "admitting" it to be worse have no baring on our opinion.
And posting a source text which someone who IS a Jew doesn't hold in esteem then has a parallel lack of value.

I made no statement about your comment's accuracy or relevance, as both are irrelevant. You either accept my answer or you don't. Either way is your choice.
As it is yours to accept the truth of the statement in the Talmud or not. My rejection and your rejection are parallels. If you see in my response any emotional component then you are seeing what isn't there. There is no fight. You reject my texts and I reject yours. So your claims are unpersuasive and unsupported by anything that carries any weight, as mine are. The difference is, I can see that I am speaking out of a particular religious context that I can anticipate has no utility to someone outside, other than being an interesting side point, and you are positing that your statement is a universal truth.

I don't know why you would think that anyone sent me here or that I have any interest in picking a fight with you or anyone else. You made a claim about the existence of a textual support for your position and supported it with material that doesn't perform that function to someone outside of your culture-context, but you don't want to see that as a flaw in either your source material or presentation, but in anyone who doesn't accept your position as a universal truth. That's fine with me. Fascinating and amusing, but not with any rhetorical value.

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#34
Stephen
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@rosends
As far as I know, Jesus was a Jew  and certainly not a Christian in any sense of the word .

Does the Jewish faith hold anywhere that Jesus the Jew came to earth to suffer an horrific execution that will some how  "take  away the sins world "?  

From what I can make from this thread alone is that  Christians are a cowardly spinless bunch that would stand by and watch anyone but themselves suffer a horrific execution and die an agonising and torturous death for something they had done?  

Note the reply when I asked a Christian:

Stephen wrote:  Doesn't it bother you at all?  That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has  died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?

ethang5 wrote Not at all.   I didn't ask Him to.  #16  ethang5


Could anyone be more thoughtlessly casual and flippant in the wake of such a  tragedy?. 




#35
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@Stephen
As far as I know, Jesus was a Jew  and certainly not a Christian in any sense of the word .

Does the Jewish faith hold anywhere that Jesus the Jew came to earth to suffer an horrific execution that will some how  "take  away the sins world "?  

From what I can make from this thread alone is that  Christians are a cowardly spinless bunch that would stand by and watch anyone but themselves suffer a horrific execution and die an agonising and torturous death for something they had done?  
Judaism doesn't really think about Jesus at all. That if he existed, he might have been Jewish is irrelevant to Judaism. Vicarious atonement through a human is not part of Jewish thought.
#36
ethang5
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@Stephen
I was never asked AND YOU tell me   "Jesus didn't  need my permission".
He didn't.

Didn't need  my permission for what? 
To offer Himself as a sacrifice for the payment of the world.

Peter  & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are not referring to you.
Then who?  
Those who take Jesus up on His heroic offer.

And now  you are telling me that Jesus didn't "TAKE AWAY"  the sins of the world as  the scriptures will have us all believe.
I did not tell you that Jesus didn't take away the sins of the world, I said  you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Those to me count as you not knowing fk all that which  you now are pretending to know about.
How things "count" to you doesn't concern me in the least.

Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.

Not according to your scriptures. 
I can only tell you the truth. Your reading comprehension is your responsibility.

His not needing your permission to die does not mean your sins have been forgiven.

Then why are you even  here  arguing  on my thread.
I corrected your error in thinking your sins had been forgiven.

Is all you had to do was -   -  tell me my sins were not forgiven...
I told you this.

...and that the bible is totally wrong on the matter of forgiveness of sins and Jesus didn't sacrifice himself to take away the "sins of the world" , and then thread would have been finished.
And I would have been a liar. Ethan never lies. Nor will Ethan feed you stupidity simply because its what you want to hear.

But as it is, you have raised so many more questions.
That often happens when one tries to debate a subject he is ignorant about.

The scriptures have a way of doing that, you know. I.E. I put a question, you lie about it and then backtrack  causing more questions to be raised. 
That must be why so many people are Christian.

And  are you denying too that Jesus didn't pay for our sins with his blood sacrifice as Christians and the scriptures  are always at pains to tell us?
You aren't a Christian.

That wasn't my question. And I was Christened over 65 years ago
So? You aren't Christian. The payment is for Christians.

I never said Jesus made any payment for you. Nothing has been taken from you and I haven't the foggiest idea why you think something has.

Because the scriptures say Jesus PAID for my sins...
Sorry, but I've seen no verse saying Jesus took away YOUR sins. And I've read the entire bible several times.

...and has " taken way the sins of the world"  Are you denying the scripters?
No. Validating scriptures. Your sins have not been forgiven. You still have them.

If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?

Who said I don't.
Well, you did. You say so in almost every thread you post.

I believe a lot of what is written in the bible. I have no reason not to. So AGAIN! where in the scriptures doe it say that? 
I've answered this question.

[Jesus becoming a sacrifice] doesn't mean He DID take your responsibilities away from you. 

But the scriptures say he did!!!!!.
No. The scriptures say Jesus sacrificed Himself as a payment, but that doesn't mean He DID take your sins away from you. You still have them.

This is what happens all the time when lying Christians LIKE YOU find themselves on the backfoot after digging big holes full of lies,  you start denying what even the scriptures clearly state. How fkn pathetic is that !!!!?
Something here is pathetic. That's for sure.

But he's already done it and he's dead.
He's not dead, and you still have your sin.
 
Ok so then according to you,...
Nope. According to the bible.

...and contrary to the scriptures and all four evangelists,...
Nope. Just contrary to you.

I still have my sin and  Jesus didn't "take away  the sins of the world"
Jesus hasn't taken away YOUR sins. You aren't the world.

That requires nothing more than a yes or no.
I've answered you several times. No one has taken away your sins. The bible doesn't say your sins have been taken away. Do you even have any memory of giving Jesus your sins?

As I have said,  and you ignored -   my sins were washed away AND  a blood sacrifice paid for by Jesus and his "heroic selflessness" sacrifice. 
I did not ignore this. I told you that your sins had not been washed away. That is why you're so angry that you've started cursing now. Saying that I ignored you is a lie. That is funny because you're accusing me of lying!

So [A] Do I still have my sins as you clearly state over and over thereby making the scriptures are wrong?
Trick questions don't help your argument.

  -  OR - [B] my sins have been paid for by the "heroic and selfless" sacrifice Jesus made as the scriptures clearly state making you wrong?
As I said, reading comprehension is your responsibility. Anyone can claim the scriptures say anything. You still have your sins. It is painfully obvious. You could give them to Jesus, but you'd rather rant about how you didn't ask Him to die for you.

Have you even ever spoken to Jesus?

No.
Then what is it making you think your sins have been taken away?

Have you?
Sure. How do you think my sins were taken away?

And that wasn't the question.
I will not keep answering a question I've answered because you like repetition.

It's funny how  certain you are given your poor reading comprehension.

About what?
That your sins have been taken away.

You are forgetting who it was that was asking the questions on MY thread in the first place, aren't you.
Nope, I didn't forget. It was you asking the questions. It is also you pretending not to see the answers too.

Let me clue you into something, asking questions is not a sure sign of certainty, it is quite the opposite. 
Refusing to see the answers and re-spamming the questions is a sign of certainty though.

...your poor reading comprehension.
Don't you Christians ever get fed up of wheeling out that old shite of an excuse when you have been put in check.
Lol. If everyone is telling you about your poor reading comprehension perhaps you should do some introspection.
Listen , I can read what is written in  the bible.  You on the other hand have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread and are even now denying what the scriptures and the evangelist themselves say . 
I've only denied what you claim the scriptures say.

YOU<, After pages of now pointless argument,  are now saying  that I  "still have my sins and nothing was taken away"  and that I will pay for them if I reject the already paid payment
I said that on the 1st page. The pointless argument after was from you.

...and  without ONE single piece of supporting evidence!!!!!!!. and no explanation of  how I will pay for them.
Why in the world would I tell you how to pay for them when you've told me that you think Jesus paying for your sins is disgusting and you would never have accepted it if He had asked? I take your words seriously

The scriptures< on the other hand don't say this at all!  If fact they completely & utterly contradict YOUR UNSUPPORTED claims that -  I " will die IF " I don't accept his sacrifice? 
John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - King Jesus Christ

Read the whole chapter 8. It will help you greatly.
#37
ethang5
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@rosends
If there is only one truth then you insist that my understanding of the authority of certain texts is wrong and you deny my the right to a distinct and acceptable belief system.
I deny you nothing by stating the truth. Your right to a distinct belief system acceptable to you has not been curtailed. Your rights do not need my validation. This is more of that illogical liberal idea that one is "denying" your rights unless they agree with you.

...and you are positing that your statement is a universal truth.
I value truth over tolerance. If the truth bothers you, you shouldn't talk to me. Though I do not wish to offend you, that will not make me forsake the truth.

...you are ok with people going around and denying other people the opportunity to have valid faith systems then that, by itself, speaks volumes.
No one has denied you anything. Stop being a victim. My stating what I believe does not deny you any of your rights. It is not your right that I agree with you.

And posting a source text which someone who IS a Jew doesn't hold in esteem then has a parallel lack of value.
If what you asked for is in that text, I will tell you it is there. How much value you place on the truth is your business.

You made a claim about the existence of a textual support for your position and supported it with material that doesn't perform that function to someone outside of your culture-context, but you don't want to see that as a flaw in either your source material or presentation...
Because I operate on logic, not liberal nonsense. I will not Tailor the truth to fit the cultural bias of the person asking. The function of the truth is not dependant on what you think of it.

That's fine with me. Fascinating and amusing, but not with any rhetorical value.
Liberal logic. Amusing at least. It's long since stopped being fascinating. Have a pleasant day Rosends.
#38
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@ethang5
I understand your position, and could take an equal and opposite position: 

when I asked for a quote from the bible, you failed to provide one, and that'as the truth because the text you worked from is not the bible and I know that because the position I have is the truth. Additionally, when you state your position, that's not the truth and I won't play the game of validating your position by coddlilng untruths as if they are valid when my position is the truth and yours doesn't accord with that.

If you don't see that as a denial of your position then that's fine, I guess. There is no offense intended; I'm just pointing out how your entire system is one big mass of errors and won't temper telling the truth by allowing untruths to go uncorrected. Fortunately, you don't need the validation of the truth because you are comfortable embracing your untruth. Again, that's not meant to be a negative statement, just one of fact.
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#39
Stephen
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@ethang5


Didn't need  my permission for what? 
To offer Himself as a sacrifice for the payment of the world.
What do you mean , payment of the world? What was the payment for, what did Jesus buy with the blood sacrifice.


Peter  & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are not referring to you.
Then who?  
Those who take Jesus up on His heroic offer.
But  It wasn't an offer was it? .


I said  you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.
You keep saying this but offer no proof AGAIN.  Instead of making threats on behalf of your god show us where the scriptures actually state this. 



Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.
So you keep saying but offer not a single piece of biblical proof. You have painted yourself so tightly into a corner with all of your shite made up as you go, that you forget what you have already  said. 


And I would have been a liar.
Good.  Then prove you are not lying when you have gone against all biblical claims by telling me Jesus didn't die for  our sins and the sins of the world as the scriptures categorically say he did.


But as it is, you have raised so many more questions in  TRYING TO DEFEND YOUR OWN LIES
That often happens when one tries to debate a subject he is ignorant about.
No that happens when people like you start to make things up and tell lies when cornered. You simply cannot prove you claims because  THEY ARE LIES


You aren't a Christian.
I am not a practicing Christian  and I have never hidden the fact.  I have already told you, that was another decision made for me by someone else. 


That wasn't my question. And I was Christened over 65 years ago
So? You aren't Christian. The payment is for Christians.
What Payment?  How was it paid?  When was it paid ? Who paid it?  And what was the payment actually for?







Because the scriptures say Jesus PAID for my sins...
Sorry, but I've seen no verse saying Jesus took away YOUR sins. And I've read the entire bible several times.
Well then you know not your scriptures then do you? And  this is probably why you seem to think that you can get away with making things up. Is it any wonder it is so easy to run rings around you.  



...and has " taken way the sins of the world"  Are you denying the scripters?
No. Validating scriptures. Your sins have not been forgiven. You still have them.
Prove it! you haven't validated nothing. You have proven nothing .You have offered nothing in the way of evidence for you claims.  Your just lying. 


If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?
Who said I don't.

Well, you did. You say so in almost every thread you post.

 When? 


But the scriptures say he did!!!!!.
 The scriptures say Jesus sacrificed Himself as a payment,

Payment for what?


This is what happens all the time when lying Christians LIKE YOU find themselves on the backfoot after digging big holes full of lies,  you start denying what even the scriptures clearly state. How fkn pathetic is that !!!!?
Something here is pathetic. That's for sure.
 And I have shown you what and who. It is YOU denying even what even  the scriptures ACTUALLY  say. This is what you Christians all eventually end up doing because you cannot keep up with your own bullshite


You still have your sin.
 Ok so then according to you and contrary to the scriptures and all four evangelists, I still have my sin and  Jesus didn't "take away  the sins of the world"  sins?<<, That requires nothing more than a yes or no.

Nope. According to the bible.

Great. then show us where in the scriptures.




I still have my sin and  Jesus didn't "take away  the sins of the world"
Jesus hasn't taken away YOUR sins. You aren't the world.
And neither are you. 

So show us where in the scriptures Jesus took away  "the sins of the world"  but not my sins? 


That requires nothing more than a yes or no.
 so you can't answer but ask :

 Do you even have any memory of giving Jesus your sins?

" giving" !!!!   2memories of me giving"???????  You  really are in a mess aren't you princess. 



So [A] Do I still have my sins as you clearly state over and over thereby making the scriptures are wrong?  -  OR - [B] my sins have been paid for by the "heroic and selfless" sacrifice Jesus made as the scriptures clearly state making you wrong? 
Trick questions don't help your argument. It is not a trick question. It is either one or the other and simply cannot be both.  I personally am going with [B], and  what the scriptures have to say, because I know that you're a compulsive  liar and cannot ever prove your claims. such as here >#39


Did Jesus die for my sins or not? Have Christians been lying for over 2000 years as to why god sent his  "ONLY son" to earth?
Have you even ever spoken to Jesus?
No.  Have you? About what?

That your sins have been taken away.
FFS!!!! make your mind up!! 


It's funny how  certain are 
About what?   You are forgetting who it was that was asking the questions on MY thread in the first place, aren't you.  Let me clue you into something, asking questions is not a sure sign of certainty, it is quite the opposite. 

Nope, I didn't forget. It was you asking the questions. It is also you pretending not to see the answers too.

I seen the answer silly. I just don't agree with them because you have done nothing but lie and contradicted your own statements and the what the  scriptures actually say. But you wouldn't know. because you have never read them for yourself.  You have offered not one single verse from scriptures that supports a single one of your claims. 



Listen , I can read what is written in  the bible.  You on the other hand have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread and are even now denying what the scriptures and the evangelist themselves say . 
I've only denied what you claim the scriptures say.

On the contrary. They scriptures say Jesus died for my sins.  Where is your evidence for your claims that Jesus didn't die for my sins? 



The scriptures< on the other hand don't say this at all!  If fact they completely & utterly contradict YOUR UNSUPPORTED claims that -  I " will die IF " I don't accept his sacrifice? 
John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - King Jesus Christ

Now your talking . This is your biblical evidence that you are offering  that proves all of your claims then is it?  Took your time, but still. Ok lets just see if I have the context correct.

So if I don't believe in him I will die in sin or my inherited sin from thousands of years ago or both? 


Read the whole chapter 8. It will help you greatly.
Oh I have,  and more. 


#40
Theweakeredge
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@rosends
Regardless if we reach the same conclusions, you are a mess of logical fallacies.
#41
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@Theweakeredge
I'm not sure if you know who or what I am. You see what I wrote, and what I wrote was intentionally a mess of logical fallacies which was designed to point out the same fallacies in another person's position.
#42
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@rosends
Oh? INteresting
#43
ethang5
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@rosends
Hopefully the "truth" won't die with your small dwindling band of merry men claiming their archaic way is the truth.

I checked, and reality doesn't reside between your ears. But at least you learned that your rights aren't harmed by others asserting theirs.
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@ethang5
My merry band has been keeping the truth alive for a while now and we aren't dwindling, even in the face of many insisting that they have access to some erroneous notion of "truth."
#45
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@rosends
My merry band has been keeping the truth alive for a while now and we aren't dwindling, even in the face of many insisting that they have access to some erroneous notion of "truth."
Your rite because there can only being one truth and the true god is being the truth.
#46
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@Stephen
That is correct Stephen, in relation to your opening poser. No one who is a sinner would ask Jesus to die for them.
I don't believe I asked that. There are only two questions in my op.
You gave a poser? " I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me." That is what drew me to this topic.  It like any statement is answering a question.  But you can pretend otherwise, I don't really care. I addressed your poser - not your post. 

And the question is why? 
No the questions were :

(1)But who does the bible say  is responsible for our crimes/sins?

(2) In relation to Genesis4: 9 Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?
I never read your opening post - And I still have not. But to answer your simplistic questions - the Bible talks about sin and sins.  I asked this a while ago. Another question you failed to address.  I suppose you don't remember this one either. How convenient? 

The Bible indicates that each person is responsible for their own sins.  Crime and sin are not the same thing.  

Yet the Bible also indicates that the view of world is covenantal. It is not merely corporate and it is not merely individual. I thought a great expert like yourself would understand covenant by now.   

Are you attempting to use Cain as an example of how we deal with sin? 
  

I never read anything past the opening poser.  

And  I don't believe that for a second although you did entirely miss the questions in my OP............

and ignored this one raised entirely by a claim that you yourself have made?>
Why not? I have told you before I don't tell lies.  Why are you calling me a liar? That is the implication of your response.  I still have not read your opening post. 

The reason I responded in the way I did - is because I responded entirely to your opening statement. In fact I agreed with your opening statement as I recall. 

The bible clearly talks of God completing what he begun[ ...................................]  Yet it also clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin and needing to be saved from it.  #33  Tradesecret

And where about  is it that the bible " clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin"? 

You must think I am an amazing authority. You keep quoting me all the time.  I really am quite flattered by your attention.  

Philippians 1:6 tells us that what God starts he will complete.  Humans are responsible for their own sin.  And they do need to be saved from it. AMEN!

You can do your own homework in relation to humans being responsible for their own sin.  It is evident from the beginning when God tells Adam that in the day he sins he wil surely die. It is evident in the fact that Cain was cursed because he killed Abel. It is evident in the story of Noah - when GOD judged the entire world for its sin. It is evident in the story of Noah when he sinned by getting drunk and then was punished. It is evidence on and on and on - including the Levitical sacrifices and offerings. It is evident in Israel and Judah being judged for their sins. It is evident in David being punished for adultery and murder. 

On and on and on. God calls on people to repent of their sins - and to pay for their own sins.  Death is that punishment. And everyone will die for their sins.  


#47
ethang5
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@Stephen
Instead of making threats on behalf of your god show us where the scriptures actually state this. 

So you keep saying but offer not a single piece of biblical proof.

You have painted yourself so tightly into a corner with all of your shite made up as you go, that you forget what you have already  said.

when people like you start to make things up and tell lies when cornered. You simply cannot prove you claims because  THEY ARE LIES

...you know not your scriptures then do you?

And  this is probably why you seem to think that you can get away with making things up.

Is it any wonder it is so easy to run rings around you.  

Your just lying. 

I know that you're a compulsive  liar and cannot ever prove your claims. 

The scriptures< on the other hand don't say this at all!

If fact they completely & utterly contradict YOUR UNSUPPORTED claims that -  I " will die IF " I don't accept his sacrifice? 
John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - King Jesus Christ

Now your talking .
Lol!!!! 

Read the whole chapter 8. It will help you greatly.

Oh I have,  and more. 
I wish you had read it BEFORE you started your militant rants about me lying and that the bible supported your ignorant claims. But better late than never eh?


So if I don't believe in him I will die in sin or my inherited sin from thousands of years ago or both? 
After all your ignorant rants calling me a liar, you just ooze to yet another question as if there is no egg on your face?

Wait, am I not a liar anymore? Has the bible suddenly changed? Does the bible no longer completely & utterly contradict MY UNSUPPORTED claims that -  you " will die IF " you don't accept His sacrifice? Have I moved out of the corner I painted myself in? : )


Have you even ever spoken to Jesus?

No.
Then what is it making you think your sins have been taken away?

Have you?
Sure. How do you think my sins were taken away?

And that wasn't the question.
I will not keep answering a question I've answered because you like repetition.

It's funny how  certain you are given your poor reading comprehension.

About what?
That your sins have been taken away. Do you even have any memory of giving Jesus your sins?

" giving" !!!!   2memories of me giving"???????  You  really are in a mess aren't you princess.
I'll assume you have no such memory.

 ...you have gone against all biblical claims by telling me Jesus didn't die for  our sins...
I never told you that. Instead of sputtering and cursing, just post where I said Jesus didn't die for your sins. I bet you cannot.

Where is your evidence for your claims that Jesus didn't die for my sins? 
I never said that Jesus didn't die for your sins. I said you still have your sins, they have not been washed away or forgiven. Reading comprehension Stevie. Reading comprehension.
#48
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@Theweakeredge
I think Rosends means my logical fallacy is not agreeing with her. It's liberal logic 101.
#49
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@rosends
My merry band has been keeping the truth alive...
Remember now, your "truth".

...for a while now and we aren't dwindling, even in the face of many insisting that they have access to some erroneous notion of "truth."
Like I said, at least you learned that your rights aren't harmed by others asserting theirs. The education was free.
#50
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@ethang5
Remember now, your "truth".
No, the truth. What you keep insisting is "truth" is an error. I know because I said so and I said so because I know. I'm glad that you feel comfortable embracing your untruth.
#51
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@ethang5
I'm a liberal and don't use that kind of reasoning, so no, that doesn't apply. That's a generalization without evidence, try again.
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@rosends
Remember now, your "truth".

No, the truth. 
At first it was my truth. You changed your mind on the subjectivity of truth. Bravo!

I know because I said so and I said so because I know.
No one asked how you know. And how you know doesn't affect truth. If it is true, it is true regardless of how you know.

I'm glad that you feel comfortable embracing your untruth.
I'm glad that you're glad. But untruth is like truth in that it is not mine or yours. Untruth is untruth no matter whether it is from Jew or gentile.

It took years to put that liberal nonsense into you, it will take some time to get it out of you. But liberals love being victims, so you will have to wrestle with having to give up victimhood. Keep talking to me and you will improve.
#53
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@ethang5
You seem fixated on politics instead of on the fact that what I speak of is the truth. It does not depend on you, and the truth does not comport with your particular version of it. It simply is and according to that truth, you are wrong.

Just as a side note, I am willing to grant you "your truth" because those false notions are so firmly ingrained in you that you mistake them for something transcendent. They aren't, but that's the foundation upon which you work so I wouldn't want to take that away from you until you are ready. And you aren't -- I can tell by how you cling to your errors.
#54
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@Stephen
As another interesting thought to your redundant question -  Did Jesus die for all? Or perhaps he died just for the elect? 

St Augustine seemed to take this idea from Paul's writings.  


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@Theweakeredge
I'm a liberal and don't use that kind of reasoning,
So you say. But we'll see.

so no, that doesn't apply. That's a generalization without evidence, try again.
That kind of reasoning is what makes a person a liberal. If you are really a liberal, you use that kind of reasoning. Otherwise, you aren't a liberal. People have been known to mis-label themselves. Not by lying, just by mistake.

Liberals tend not to see the fallacies in their reasoning, and think its only the "other guy" with "that kind" of reasoning. But I will take your word for it, least someone accuses me of denying you your "rights".
#56
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@rosends
You seem fixated on politics instead of on the fact that what I speak of is the truth.
It's no longer your truth eh?

It does not depend on you, and the truth does not comport with your particular version of it. It simply is and according to that truth, you are wrong.
Lol. You just repeated the lesson I gave you.

Just as a side note, I am willing to grant you "your truth"...
 Oops! Don't slip back into PC nonsense. First, you can't "grant" anyone the truth, and second, there is no your truth or my truth. I know these non-liberal ideas are scary for you, but trust me, you will be fine.

because those false notions are so firmly ingrained in you that you mistake them for something transcendent. They aren't, but that's the foundation upon which you work so I wouldn't want to take that away from you until you are ready. And you aren't -- I can tell by how you cling to your errors.
Liberals also love to pontificate on their thinking. No one cares Rosends, that's why no one asked you. Opinions are like you know what, everyone has one. Now, find someone who finds your personal thoughts fascinating, and bother them.

Liberals always think they are so interesting to others.
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#57
Stephen
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@Tradesecret

I don't believe I asked that. There are only two questions in my op.
You gave a poser? " I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me."
That is a statement of fact. It wasn't a question, my lawyer friend. Don't you know the difference?  You do deal in questions for a living. Had it been a question, it would have  been indicated as such with the the customary grammatical  question mark  symbolised  with  one of these >>  ?

The questions started just 4 lines down. 



  I asked this a while ago. Another question you failed to address. I suppose you don't remember this one either. How convenient? 

Your welcome to put up the link.


The Bible indicates that each person is responsible for their own sins. 
 Where? 

and this was your original claim:
 

The bible clearly talks of God completing what he begun[ ...................................]  Yet it also clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin and needing to be saved from it.  #33  Tradesecret

SO,  where about  is it that the bible " clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin"? You haven't told us yet.



You keep quoting me all the time.  I really am quite flattered by your attention.  

Good,  then stop whining all the time  that I am "mocking" you. " attacking you"  and "humiliating you"  simply for quoting you.
Quoting someone is what is done when responding to  comments made, which is the thing to do when responding to something YOU have written.  For instance, however would you know what I am replying to otherwise , our lawyer friend.  You really should know better, with you dealing in questions for a living.


You must think I am an amazing authority.

I do. But  what I think about you personally really is irrelevant Reverend.  Your qualifications and your claimed background  on the other hand  indeed are quite amazing  and does indicate a lot of authority in a few interesting fields, wouldn't you agree? 

Lets see: 

Starting with your education  and without being asked or any prompting you freely tell this  forum :

"I studied and was tutored byacademics, scholars, and priests and fathers from the OrthodoxChurch". #91

"Istudy the original languages, translate them to English",  #25 

"I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation".#20 

" my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. "#20

"I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications". #20

which all appear to entitle you to 

" charge universities when they request me to lecture to them [ their students]". #20 

Now in my opinion you have every reason to feel flattered and proud  with such skills and accomplishments. And I would recommend to anyone on this forum to cut-out and keep this wonderful record of your life time achievements. 

But we are not finished  yet are we?  You have another string to your bow don't you Reverend?  You are also a fully qualified and practicing lawyer too!!!!

 #20 "I am a lawyer".  And indirectly you issue some good advice to us when you tell us this "  I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police".   And you press home your reasons to us for this advice;   and I absolutely agree because it is  THIS IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE >>>>. 

" I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case" . #20   That's entirely correct , it is the universally accepted law he that brings the claim  must prove their case.

So seriously Reverend, who would not believe you to be an "amazing authority" with all that background under your belt?   What with your family life, criminal legal work, Pastoral counseling, your work as a Chaplin to the defence forces,  and university lecturing, you really are an exceptional human being.  I suppose  with all of that going on in your life, one can be forgiven for forgetting  the odd Central biblical character and where the burden of proof actually does lay in Law.



Philippians 1:6 tells us that what God starts he will complete.  Humans are responsible for their own sin.  And they do need to be saved from it. AMEN!

No.  Not a single word about sin. In fact there are only for words that start with the letters  s-i-n in the whole of the chapter and the words "responsibility"  OR  "responsible". don't appear either.

Did Jesus die for all? Or perhaps he died just for the elect? 

  
I don't know who he believed he was dying for.  So you tell me, man of letters.   But I can categorically tell you that Jesus doesn't say he was sent to save Christians.

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."Matthew 15:24















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#58
Stephen
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@ethang5

John 8:24 - I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. - King Jesus Christ.  Read the whole chapter 8. It will help you greatly.

Oh I have,  and more. So if I don't believe in him I will die in sin or my inherited sin from thousands of years ago or both? 
I wish you had read it BEFORE you started your militant rants about me lying and that the bible supported your ignorant claims.
It doesn't state  " King Jesus Christ" .  You have added that. 

Anyway , Can you clear up the question BEFORE YOU start claiming any more shite. We maybe able to proceed with your argument then.



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#59
Stephen
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@ethang5

Liberals tend not to see the fallacies in their reasoning,.

As do  Christians



fallacy:   1  a mistaken belief, especially one based on unsound arguments.
                 2  a failure in reasoning which renders an argument invalid.
                 3  faulty reasoning.


#60
Deb-8-a-bull
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I would of saved Jesus.  
Operation rescue Jesus from the cross.
Aslong as you got like a real fast donkey. I would  of attempted a rescue mission. 
I mean , The bloke can perform miracles. 
With his miracle #12.  ( Water to wine ). And # 17  ( empty bucket to bucket o fish ) these two alone your on to a good thing. 
I'd keep him and simply remove his voice box. 
My Jesus.