Messiah: What did it actually mean to be a Messiah?

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 38
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
 
Even the  most dense of  Christians have managed through the ages to eventually grasp that  the word Messiah  means -  anointed.  It means the same thing in Greek by all accounts as it does in Hebrew.

 But anointed into or, as  what? 

And who specifically are those anointed ones? 

does to be  a anointed  messiah mean to be in the service of god. 

So can  we  say priests are messiahs because they are in the service of god? 

Are kings messiahs in the service of god? and can they go onto anoint others into the service of god?

Can anyone anointed by a priest be in the service of god? 

Is it the duty of any of the above to anoint others as messiahs?

 Do messiahs have different functions? 

 
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
Messiah is the Anglicized form of the Hebrew word mashiach (or moshiach, depending on accent).

Kings and high priests (up to a certain point) were anointed with a particular oil (shemen hamishcha). You can read about it on page 15 of this pdf

There was a person listed textually as having been anointed when he wasn't.

There is a separate notion that some people seem to have of "anointed with spirit" but I haven't seen that textually.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
Messiah is the Anglicized form of the Hebrew word mashiach (or moshiach, depending on accent).

Kings and high priests (up to a certain point) were anointed with a particular oil (shemen hamishcha). You can read about it on page 15 of this pdf


I think you meant P14   and     telling ;  [A]  " The Torah records that the first Kohein Gadol [KG]was Aharon, the brother of Moshe and G-d awarded theoffice in perpetuity to his descendants (Vayikra 6). IDivrei Hayamim 23:13 reads, "The sons of Amram:Aaron and Moses; and Aaron was separated, so heshould be sanctified as most holy, he and his sons forever, to offer before the Lord, to minister unto Him,and to bless in His name for ever."


There was a person listed textually as having been anointed when he wasn't.
Who was that? 


There is a separate notion that some people seem to have of "anointed with spirit" but I haven't seen that textually.

 The New Testament  mentions one that will anoint, well, just about any one with the "holy spirit".  I think this simply means given a certain knowledge but  would this make them also Messiahs? 


I watched this very recently .


Rabbi Michael Skobac,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBSRiwy4T7k&t=599s  << here at 4:50 in just the first 10 minutes  it  points out that  Messiah just  means  "inaugurate into the service of god" via the application of  "usually oil to someone or something"  As were the candlesticks and the alter because they too had been "anointed"

 It points to the making of the sacred anointing oil at Exodus 30:22  and goes on to giving instruction of what, is to be anointed.

And then, who is to be anointed at Exodus 30:  with the same anointing oil it states :



30 “Anoint Aaron and his sons and consecrate them so they may serve me as priests. 31 Say to the Israelites, ‘This is to be my sacred anointing oil for the generations to come. 32 Do not pour it on anyone else’s body and do not make any other oil using the same formula. It is sacred, and you are to consider it sacred. 33 Whoever makes perfume like it and puts it on anyone other than a priest must be cut off from their people.’”
This then is in agreement with [A] above from your link.

 So, on the human side of things  it appears that this sacred oil was used only to anoint priests. 

 It must have been later when Israel had there first king that this sacred oil was also used to anoint kings into the service of god making them Messiahs also?
Would this be a fair assumption considering the bible says so?





rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
I think you meant P14   
No, page 15 mentions up to what point it was used and when it stopped.

Who was that? 
Koresh (Cyrus) as per Isaiah 45

It must have been later when Israel had there first king that this sacred oil was also used to anoint kings into the service of god making them Messiahs also?
Would this be a fair assumption considering the bible says so?
The oil was used on the initial priests and the objects which were used in the tabernacle. It was then, moving forward, used on high priests and some kings. For a fuller list, see here.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends



It must have been later when Israel had there first king that this sacred oil was also used to anoint kings into the service of god making them Messiahs also?
Would this be a fair assumption considering the bible says so?
The oil was used on the initial priests and the objects which were used in the tabernacle. It was then, moving forward, used on high priests and some kings. For a fuller list, see here.

Apart from temple duties, what other duties would the  high priest perform  in the times of kings? 
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Here are a couple of sites which give details about the HP's functions


Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2



This was extremely  interesting from  of your link one link above? 


" Due to the special holiness which the Kohanim (priest) possess, they are forbidden from coming in contact with a corpse or grave. One who comes in contact with a corpse or grave contracts a spiritual impurity which lasts for at least seven days, and can only be removed through the ashes of the Red Heifer. The exception to this rule is if a member of the Kohen's immediate family passes away. In this case, out of respect for the family-member, the Kohen is obligated to attend the funeral and pay his final respects - despite the impurity which this entails.The Kohen Gadol, who is even holier than the average Kohen, can't attend a funeral, even if it is his own next of kin.
The only time a Kohen Gadol may be involved with a corpse, is if he encounters a Mes Mitzvah (a corpse that is strewn on the road, and no one else is in the vicinity to give it a proper burial). This is because the dignity of the Jewish body supercedes all other considerations".

 So a priest cannot  go near a corpse or a grave and  Jesus is believed to have been to be a rabbi/teacher/ priest and probably a high priest although the bible never makes that clear at all.

This reminds me of something that I came across years ago where read that a Nazarite (aka a long haired warrior) couldn't go anywhere near a dead body or graves. Samson was a Nazarite wasn't he? 





rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
 Jesus is believed to have been to be a rabbi/teacher/ priest and probably a high priest although the bible never makes that clear at all.
Well, believed by whom? Not me. Also, he can't be a priest because he wasn't from teh proper tribe. The priesthood was conferred on the Aaronic line (via the oil) and the tribe of Levi. 

For the Samson question, start with this.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
For the Samson question, start with this.

 Sounds like a bit of a cop-out, to me rosi

 Jesus is believed to have been to be a rabbi/teacher/ priest and probably a high priest although the bible never makes that clear at all.
Well, believed by whom? 

 Christians. and  maybe they have good reason to belive so. But like I have said, the NT like many things doesn't make it clear.

rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
You may call it a cop out, but it is a matter of study and discussion based on sources and proofs, not an off the cuff dance away from anything. Jewish interpretation is complex and based in texts that go beyond the written bible.
Utanity
Utanity's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 375
0
2
2
Utanity's avatar
Utanity
0
2
2
-->
@rosends
Well, believed by whom? Not me. 
If you don't believe then you are not a true Cristian. Jesus is the ultimate priest because he is the Son of God and he actually preached to all the priests.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Utanity
Not only am I not a true Christian, I'm not any kind of Christian.
Utanity
Utanity's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 375
0
2
2
Utanity's avatar
Utanity
0
2
2
-->
@rosends
Not only am I not a true Christian, I'm not any kind of Christian.
Okay, I see that you are a Jew so really you are halfway to being a true Christian.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
You may call it a cop out, but it is a matter of study and discussion based on sources and proofs, not an off the cuff dance away from anything. Jewish interpretation is complex and based in texts that go beyond the written bible.
I did say;  sounds like, rosi.

Christianity and Judaism and  `never the twain shall meet`me thinks.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Utanity
I don't know what a "true" Christian is vs. any other but I'm not on my way to being any sort of Christian. I'm still working on being a good Jew.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Very true. And I understand that Jewish faith in texts that others don't accept can look like a cop out. I just want you to understand that it isn't a new cop out or a recent innovation. We have been dealing with these ideas for a while now.
Utanity
Utanity's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 375
0
2
2
Utanity's avatar
Utanity
0
2
2
-->
@rosends
Very true. And I understand that Jewish faith in texts that others don't accept can look like a cop out. I just want you to understand that it isn't a new cop out or a recent innovation. We have been dealing with these ideas for a while now.
If you have learned the old testament It shouldn't be hrad really to accept the new testament and learn about Jesus because he was actually a Jew anyway. So then it should not take long for the Jews to deal with the new testament.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Utanity
If you have learned the old testament It shouldn't be hrad really to accept the new testament and learn about Jesus because he was actually a Jew anyway. So then it should not take long for the Jews to deal with the new testament.
If you have learned the Jewish bible then it shouldn't be hard to accept the oral texts as well and learn about why Christianity is wrong. It should not take long for you to reject Christianity when you deal with the oral texts.
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
I agree with your sentiments about the term "Judeo-Christian". The underlying tenets which qualify are either from the Jewish texts or not. If Christians want to appropriate the Jewish texts then don't try to rope Judaism in as if it condones the new version.


 I am looking (maybe wrongly) at how the Jews of  the 1st century AD would have viewed John the Baptist & how they view him today if they ever did have an opinion at all,   and how christian view him today.
The first thing to point out is this notion of "the baptist." The idea of "baptism" comes from a Jewish idea of ritual immersion. This was done in a particular type of body of water, at very specific times for particular reasons. It didn't require anyone else's intervention - the individual immerses himself. So Jews at the time would not understand someone's interest in (transitively) "baptizing" someone else. 

If for instance John  was a priest ( and there are some biblical  indications that he was)then  would mean John was also a  messiah  from a Jewish stand point?
Christians say a lot about John and it always fascinates me that they say a lot more about John than the bible itself has to say about him. 
If John was from the proper family/lineage to be a "priest" then that is what his caste would be. He would not have been anointed, nor COULD he be the messiah in any other sense.



Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
I have always believed that  the  "Judeo/Christian"  tag has always been a cop-out especially for   those that want to defend and apologise for Islam. ie when one speaks of the barbarity in the Quran  this is usually countered with -   "the Christian bible is no better."  But I have  many times said that this is a rod that Christians have fashioned for their own backs, by adopting an ancient god they know nothing about from a time and place that they knew nothing about. 

Anyway:
 I am looking (maybe wrongly) at how the Jews of  the 1st century AD would have viewed John the Baptist & how they view him today if they ever did have an opinion at all,   and how christian view him today.
If for instance John  was a priest ( and there are some biblical  indications that he was)then  would this  mean John was also a  messiah  from a Jewish stand point? 
Christians say a lot about John and it always fascinates me that they say a lot more about John than the bible itself has to say about him.

We have this from ex Pharisee general and historian FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS

 In Jewish Antiquities 18.116-119, Flavius Josephus includes a section on John the Baptist. His reason for including it was that it contained widely circulating explanation for the victory of the Nabatean king Aretas over the tetrarch Herod Antipas. :116. Some Jews believed that the army of Herod was destroyed by God,who quite rightly avenged the fate of John, surnamed the Baptist. 117.For Herod had John killed, although he had been a good man. He had asked the Jews to lead a virtuous life and to come together for baptism,  while practising righteousness towards each other, and piety towards God. In this way, it seemed to him, was baptism acceptable: they should not use it to obtain forgiveness for the sins they had committed, but as a purification of the body, inasmuch as their soul had already been cleansed beforehand by righteousness. 118. When others joined them-for they became highly agitated by his preaching-Herod feared his influence on people to be so great that it might lead to some uprising; for they seemed to be doing everything according to his advice. Therefore Herod decided that it would be much better to take the initiative to have him killed before he was able to cause some revolution, than to get involved in matters once the revolt had begun, and then be sorry. 119. Because of Herod's apprehension,John was sent in chains to the aforementioned fortress of Machaerus and killed there. Among the Jews, however, the opinion prevailed that Herod's army was destroyed as a revenge on John's behalf, because God wished to harm Herod..
file:///C:/Users/Steve/Downloads/_book_edcoll_9789047433224_B9789047433224-s014-preview.pdf

So ex Pharisee General and historian FLAVIUS JOSEPHUS has John down as nothing more than a very influential professional agitating zealot who's words could cause a rebellion . No mention of his being a messiah let alone a priest.

Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
I am not sure how that happened rosi but my post has moved below your reply.  Any idea how that happened.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
If John was from the proper family/lineage to be a "priest" then that is what his caste would be. He would not have been anointed, nor COULD he be the messiah in any other sense.

Then this seems to say that John had the correct pedigree>
 “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.” (Luke 1:5) 

If this truly be the case, then he would have  been a messiah?

rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Then this seems to say that John had the correct pedigree>
 “There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.” (Luke 1:5) 

If this truly be the case, then he would have  been a messiah?
Just being of the Aaronic line does not mean one is anointed. The rank and file priest in first temple times was not anointed and all the more so, during the second temple era when there was no available anointing oil for ANYONE, so the word is not applicable.

Also, you bolded his mother's lineage which is not relevant. The priestly status comes through the father, so the claim that this "Zacharias" was a priest would be what determined that the child was to be in that line.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
Also, you bolded his mother's lineage which is not relevant. 

 We have then a false character as far as Christians seem to be painting J t B.. He has no pedigree and no qualification to do anything. Not even with river water. 

Josephus does say he was a priest or a  prophet  -  and neither did John come to that,  and yet here he is placed on a pedestal almost as high as the Christ himself.

 There is one massive difference her though.  John had a massive following  , massive enough by biblical accounts to worry Herod in the event of an uprising.

But no one knew who Jesus even was again according to the scriptures.
when he and his followers performed their party political stunt of donkey riding and palm waving, the people of the city were asking " who is he"?
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,617
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
That  above  at #24 should have said   "Josephus doesn't say ". T
Utanity
Utanity's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 375
0
2
2
Utanity's avatar
Utanity
0
2
2
-->
@rosends
If you have learned the Jewish bible then it shouldn't be hard to accept the oral texts as well and learn about why Christianity is wrong. It should not take long for you to reject Christianity when you deal with the oral texts.
That is blastephemy because the Jewish bible is the same as the old testament anyway but the new testament is the real part of the bible which the Jewish don't have. In Mathew it says Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Utanity
That is blastephemy because the Jewish bible is the same as the old testament anyway but the new testament is the real part of the bible which the Jewish don't have. In Mathew it says Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
The Jewish bible is not the same as the "Old Testament" and the gospels are not part of any bible which is why Jews don't have it. We have an oral text which is essential to understanding the bible. With out it, you can't really understand what the bible text says.

Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@rosends
The Jewish bible is not the same as the "Old Testament" and the gospels are not part of any bible which is why Jews don't have it. We have an oral text which is essential to understanding the bible. With out it, you can't really understand what the bible text says.

Hi Rosends,

that link does not really say that the OT that the Christians use is different from the Jewish Bible.  Protestants don't refer to the Apocrypha as part of the Canon. Catholics, OC and High Anglicans place it in the bible - but interestingly hypothetically give it a lower authority than OT.  

I agree that book order probably plays some part in understanding and interpretation. But not substantially. I also agree that the Oral Traditions play a much bigger part for Jewish interpreters than for Christians. 

Yet I did not read anything in that link that makes me consider the OT and the Jewish bible as different. 

I agree that the gospels are not part of the Jewish bible. 


rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Tradesecret
this link might give a bit more detail


the other link was useful primarily as it showed that the order of texts (and which are included) are not exactly the same.
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,437
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@rosends
I agree with your sentiments about the term "Judeo-Christian". The underlying tenets which qualify are either from the Jewish texts or not. If Christians want to appropriate the Jewish texts then don't try to rope Judaism in as if it condones the new version.


 I am looking (maybe wrongly) at how the Jews of  the 1st century AD would have viewed John the Baptist & how they view him today if they ever did have an opinion at all,   and how christian view him today.
The first thing to point out is this notion of "the baptist." The idea of "baptism" comes from a Jewish idea of ritual immersion. This was done in a particular type of body of water, at very specific times for particular reasons. It didn't require anyone else's intervention - the individual immerses himself. So Jews at the time would not understand someone's interest in (transitively) "baptizing" someone else. 

If for instance John  was a priest ( and there are some biblical  indications that he was)then  would mean John was also a  messiah  from a Jewish stand point?
Christians say a lot about John and it always fascinates me that they say a lot more about John than the bible itself has to say about him. 
If John was from the proper family/lineage to be a "priest" then that is what his caste would be. He would not have been anointed, nor COULD he be the messiah in any other sense.

Christians in the beginning of the church were Jewish people. They were not Gentiles.  It is understandable why the Christians continued in the Jewish traditions in the first place and why they consider the term Judeo-Christian appropriate.  It is not primarily a GENTILE religion. The Christian point of view is that the Christians are the continuation of the OT covenant people. We take the view that the OT Jew and the modern day Jew - and especially since the Temple was destroyed in or around AD 70 are quite distinct from each other. 

The Christian position is that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied about in the OT.  That this was recognized by some Jews at the time and that other Jews rejected him. When the temple was destroyed - it vindicated the Messiah's prophecy in the Gospels - and as such the Jewish world split into two.  Those who were still waiting for the Messiah but without a temple and those who had realized the Messiah - who himself became the living temple. Understandable both sides disagreed with each other's position. 

The prophecies relating to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations and that in him all nations of the world would be blessed - indicated that when the Messiah came - the uniqueness of Israel would have fulfilled its purpose - i.e. to reveal the Messiah.  Hence the promise was first to the Jew. And why Jews were the first Christians. Yet, it also revealed that the Messiah would break down the walls of ethnicity and extend the promise of God to all nations.  Hence Christians, first were Jews and then they extended and ingrafted into the covenant - Gentiles. Gentiles who previously were considered unclean.  This was the entire purpose for the dream that Peter had with the sheet of food coming down from heaven. 

It is also why there was so many disagreements in the early churches between the proper balance between Jewish law and the grace that came in Christ.  

Paul, in his landmark text Romans beautifully explains the differences in the law and grace.  Demonstrating that the child of promise ISAAC, was given by faith not by works. 

Christians would focus more on the OT by itself that they would on the oral traditions. Interestingly, we would read the oral traditions - and they can give light to many of the scriptures - but unlike the Jewish modern tradition - we do not put the oral traditions on the same level as the Scriptures themselves. And I would think the Jews themselves give lip service to this idea as well. After all, they use the traditions to interpret the scriptures - not the scriptures to interpret the traditions.  Still that is a matter for the Jewish religion.