I am Gay - if your god told you to murder me, would you murder me?

Author: Theweakeredge

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#301
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@Tradesecret
Then you should repent of saying things like "There will be homosexual people in heaven.", because a repentent sodomite is not a homosexual.

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you."

If we should mourn for someone who sleeps with his own mother as someone who is to be taken away from us, that is, to be denied the kingdom, it is certainly the same with sodomites. 

"...if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.....put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

The so called "progressive Christians" are liars, not only to those who they encourage in their sin by calling such behavior no sin, but even liars about their Christianity. They are certainly not Christian who teach these things.

#302
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@Theweakeredge
I can't help that you feel the way you do, but I do not feel convicted about the way I am engaging you.

If you feel this way, what can I do but ask that you forgive me? I say what I say out of love, not ego. Who am I? A nobody. 

I still maintain the verity of my words. They are not even just my words, it is what has been passed down. It is my intent to faithfully speak of what has been passed down. I cannot compromise on this, because to compromise truth is to destroy it.
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#303
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@Mopac
Um... I wasn't trying to ask for an apology, I would appreciate it more if you just - engaged - you know - and proved it beyond a definition. Because if you're really not willing to budge on that part, then fine that's the definition of god, I don't really care that much. But then you have two options - A - God is just the observable universe so we really wouldn't consider that needing a name, or B - there are more dimensions than what are observable such a spirit realm or whatever, and you would have to prove that. 

For what its worth, it's okay? Again, I feel like just not being so arrogant about your position is all I could really ask for, and only because you try to I'm being arrogant. Which.. I r really haven't been, and I know how to be arrogant in a debate, I definitely have not been.
#304
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@Theweakeredge
I recall what is written by the ancient Chinese sage...

"Truthful words are not beautiful; beautiful words are not truthful. Good words are not persuasive; persuasive words are not good. He who knows has no wide learning; he who has wide learning does not know."

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#305
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@Mopac
Uuuh okay, does that mean because a word is one thing it can't also be another? I feel like whether a word is beautiful or not is up to the person, so couldn't all of those things be wrong? 
#306
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@Theweakeredge
"Observable universe"

Right there, these words limit reality to what has been observed.


But it is a scientific fact that there is more to reality than what has been observed. There is plenty that has not been observed that certainly exists. That should not be controversial.

Who knows the thoughts of a man? Who can read a man's heart? Their intentions? This is the realm of soul. It is no strange thing. The soul is the psyche. That is where psychology comes from.

There is nothing extraordinary about what I am saying. It is simply a matter of not being presumptuous, which leads to superstition.

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#307
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@Mopac
Then ignore that - either god is the universe (I simply added in observable as a side thing that really shouldn't matter but I do anyways because I could), or x. As for the soul and psyche being analogous. I don't know what to tell you but that that is a literal claim, you have made an assertion, that a soul exists, and therefore must demonstrate it. You seem to be trying to stick to an old version of a definition of a word in order to get out of justifying it. But if your only justification for a claim is it's definition and not any kind of syllogism or anything of the like, then you're gonna need more evidence before we should reasonable be convinced. 
#308
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@Mopac
Then you should repent of saying things like "There will be homosexual people in heaven.", because a repentent sodomite is not a homosexual.

"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you."

If we should mourn for someone who sleeps with his own mother as someone who is to be taken away from us, that is, to be denied the kingdom, it is certainly the same with sodomites. 

"...if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.....put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

The so called "progressive Christians" are liars, not only to those who they encourage in their sin by calling such behavior no sin, but even liars about their Christianity. They are certainly not Christian who teach these things.
There are many believers who are not in an unrepentant situation even though they are sinning. This is what is known as sins committed in ignorance. They are sins and will be dealt with accordingly. Yet, to sin in ignorance is distinguished from sins which are intentional. 

Many people come to Jesus - pledging loyalty to him, yet are unaware that their conduct or their views on things are sinful.  Idolatry is one. Yet the Spirit of God will convict them of their sin and so transform them. There is not one human living currently who is not a sinner and who does not have unconfessed sin in their life. All of us sin - often unintentionally - and it is difficult to repent of a sin, if we do not believe that it is a sin.  For instance, it is my view that the bible teaches that praying to Mary or to any of the Saints is a sin - a sin of idolatry. Yet, many catholics and orthodox do not see it as sinful because of the things and traditions they have been taught. And moreover they are so entrenched in this idolatry that they refuse to see it as a sin.  In my view this is sin - yet it is sin in ignorance. 

If a homosexual comes to Jesus - knowing that homosexuality is sinful and refuses to repent of it - that is quite different from someone who does not know that it is sinful and believes that there is much fake and false information put out about it. It is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin. IT is he who is transforming each one of us to be more like the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.  

I know that there is not one perfect person, save Jesus, among us. Yet, I am convinced that what God has started he will complete. 
#309
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@Tradesecret
Lord Jesus Christ son of God, have mercy on us sinners.
#310
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@Theweakeredge
Just in case no one has taken the time to tell you this...

That's an odd question.

Christians don't believe in "gay". 

They don't care.
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#311
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@Conway
Christians don't believe in "gay". 
Okay, color me confused, what do you mean?

Do you mean they think you can't be gay?

That's not true.

Does it mean they don't care as you say later?

Obviously not, they do care, though often negatively. 

The bible goes out of its way to say: These dudes are abominations

I really don't understand your point.
#312
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@Theweakeredge

They probably don't think about it at all, no belief, nada...
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#313
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@Conway
Hm, I guess they wouldn't most times would they. Fair enough.

Again, this thread was supposed to be on moral authority, not necessarily that god even commanded people to kill gay people. But you know, side tracks.
#314
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@Theweakeredge
Again, this thread was supposed to be on moral authority, not necessarily that god even commanded people to kill gay people. 
I'm not quite sure that theists see God, quite the same way they see human or natural law moral authorities.

Though I'm not 'really sure they see God as a moral authority either, since it seems a bit vague to me.
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#315
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@Lemming
Well I mostly ask the question because people claim that god is where they get their moral authority
#316
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@Theweakeredge
Really where I am coming from is that if we don't establish common ground on what terms mean, it is impossible to present proof. After all, we are not talking about the same thing.

What is spirit? It is like breathe. Like breathe in that it is animating. It moves. So what is The Holy Spirit? It is The Truth that gives life to all that exists. By life, I mean what animates it. This Holy Spirit we call a hypostasis, or an underlying reality. Jesus Christ himself, any time he mentions The Holy Spirit, within the same breathe he always calls it "The Spirit of Truth". The Holy Spirit is The Truth that animates.

When we begin our prayers, it always starts with this one...

"Heavenly king, the comforter, the Spirit of Truth who art everywhere present and filleth all things, treasurely of all good and giver of life... come and abide in us, cleansing us from every stain, oh Good One."

The "Ousia" or essence of The Holy Spirit is "Truth".

The "Logos" or Word is Truth, and when The Word takes flesh and dwells among us, The Spirit that is Truth confesses throuses Saint James the Just, 

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Of his own will begat he us with The Word of Truth.."

The Word is Truth. The Spirit is Truth. These two hypostases are one in "ousia", The Truth. The Word and Breath confess The Father, who is also one with them in that He is Truth. But He is The Singularity, The Truth set apart from all as being without comparison. Where the duality of this and that is now made singular in What Is. Where The Truth is set apart as The Purest Light, where no darkness can dwell. Being united to His Will, The Holy Spirit and The Incarnate Word share in His Divinity. What is Divinity? The Ultimate Reality. God The Father is One with His Word and His Spirit.

To confess that God is One with His Word and Spirit is to confess The Holy Trinity. To make confession of The Holy Trinity is to say that Undefiled Wisdom has given birth to The Incarnate Truth. To confess that The Truth became incarnate is to confess that God Is With Us. To confess that God Is With Us is to confess that The Uncreated and The Uncreated have been united in One Hypostasis, the Hypostasis of The Son. To confess the Hypostasis of The Son is to confess Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh.

If you confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, you are acknowledging that All That Is, Ever Was, and Ever Shall Be is united to Divinity, that death has been trampled, that all will be resurrected in unity with God. That the Same Divine Light that fills all things has even filled the grave itself and raised all dead things alive. That this same Saving Light will be the bliss of heaven to Life. This same Life will be The Fire that eternally burns death. Eternally burning death because the present of The Light of Truth reveals all things, being the death of death.

To believe and confess this is to give witness to the ressurection of Christ.

To abide in the ressurection of Christ is to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Worshiping God in Spirit and Truth is living The Trinity, which is The Eternal Way of Truth.

To abide in The Person of Christ. To walk humbly with God.

The Person of Christ is The Church. The visible body of The Incarnate Truth being as the human physis or that has been made one in hypostasis with The Divine physis. 

The Son of The Father, as The Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets.

The Ultimate Reality. The One True God.

Orthodox Christianity. The Orthodox Catholic Church. The Virgin of humble and undefiled wisdom that through The Holy Spirit conceived and gave birth to The Truth Incarnate, Jesus Christ.

To the glory of God The Father.

On that note, it is the season leading up to the nativity of Christ. I will be gone til Christmas at least. Shouldn't be posting here during that time.

May you find Christ.





























The universe is defined by Oxford as "All existing matter and space considered as a whole."

We 





#317
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@Conway
Just in case no one has taken the time to tell you this...

That's an odd question.

Christians don't believe in "gay". 

They don't care.
I think that is presumptious on so many levels - and in particular to many gays who are Christian themselves. 
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#318
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@Tradesecret
I actually agree with you here, and have noted as such in my response.
#319
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@Lemming
Again, this thread was supposed to be on moral authority, not necessarily that god even commanded people to kill gay people. 
I'm not quite sure that theists see God, quite the same way they see human or natural law moral authorities.

Though I'm not 'really sure they see God as a moral authority either, since it seems a bit vague to me.
Certainly there is some truth in that comment.  Christians like any other worldview have people within its ranks that are different to others. 

Some see God as the determiner of moral truth and others don't.  


#320
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, yes they do. They live in a democracy after all.

should the government ever have the power to kill innocent people? No. 

Also, really, that's your example, abortion. If you want to use your own example, then as you admit, abortion isn't murder. 

How about this - you can call abortion murder, and I can call what those sects want murder.

Sound fair?
Hi Theweakeredge,

You make a good point and it is one I have grappled with in the past. 

I agree that the government should never have the power to kill unlawfully.  The question of innocence is more complex. 

I think that abortion is not properly in my view murder when it is carried out legislation made under a properly constituted government. 

And nor would I consider the death penalty murder for any breach under any law if it was carried out under properly constituted government. 

If for instance the government decided that all Christians who refused to bow the knee to Caesar and deny the Christ should be put to death, then this would not be murder if the legislation was made under a properly constituted government. 

When Caesar threw the Christians to the lions for being Christians, this was not murder under their law.  I think it was unethical and immoral and unjustified personally. But it was not murder.  

I do think the government had the right to put to death people who break its laws if is so desired to do so.  The bigger question is who determines the government and the laws it makes? 

In a democracy where the majority determines the morality of the society - then it is the people who make those decisions. 
In a dictatorship it is the dictator who makes that call. 
In an oligarchy - then it is that group of elites that make that call. 
In a theocracy it is the God of that theocracy that makes that rule.

Or is there a law - a common law of right and wrong that everyone holds too? A conscious. ???

I disagree with murder. I also disagree with abortion. And I think the killing of humans at any stage is wrong unless there is a lawful reason. Legislation provides that lawful reason to make abortion not murder. It does not mean that it is not unethical or wrong or that it is not killing. 

And the same applies to homosexuality - 

The question of innocence becomes vague. What is innocence? Innocence from what - breaking the law. Or breaking morality. Or what? 
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#321
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@Tradesecret
As you probably know, I don't really hold to any standard of objective morality, and I think then it goes there. Generally, that's true in a democracy, that the majority decides what's right and what's wrong. While I could explain my stance on abortion and why I don't se it as unethical, I think that's a little besides the point for here. I do agree that often we should consider and ask what is the ethical thing, and not necessarily what the legal thing.

Essentially what I'm saying is that while definitionally its not murder, in my own head cannon for it, something is murder if it's unjustified validly or ethically. Therefore for me the question of innocence is who has not committed an unjust thing. An unjust thing being an action that is unjust validly and/or ethically. If any of that makes any sense, its how I look at the question anyways. 
#322
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@Theweakeredge
As you probably know, I don't really hold to any standard of objective morality, and I think then it goes there. Generally, that's true in a democracy, that the majority decides what's right and what's wrong. While I could explain my stance on abortion and why I don't se it as unethical, I think that's a little besides the point for here. I do agree that often we should consider and ask what is the ethical thing, and not necessarily what the legal thing.

Essentially what I'm saying is that while definitionally its not murder, in my own head cannon for it, something is murder if it's unjustified validly or ethically. Therefore for me the question of innocence is who has not committed an unjust thing. An unjust thing being an action that is unjust validly and/or ethically. If any of that makes any sense, its how I look at the question anyways. 
I did not know for sure - although I had picked it up in some of what you were saying.  I do hold to an objective morality. I think pedophilia is WRONG ABSOLUTELY and ALWAYS.  There are no exceptions to it.  I think rape is absolutely wrong ALWAYS and that there is no exception to this.  I disagree with abortion - but accept that there are some justified exceptions to it.   I disagree with euthanasia but would concede that there may be exceptions to.  

I hold to an open doors immigration policy. Yet I am also anti-socialist. I am a libertarian - and even progressive by nature - yet I disagree the conception of big government. 

Murder is unlawful killing. Putting a qualification that provides justification ethically - requires more than just a culturally or generational basis.  Hence, I think that all societies require an underlying culture that determines equality for the rest.  I don't think this underlying culture should be secular thinking or atheism. 

The problem about talking about unjustly valid or ethical is that we live in a time of philosophical flux. Everything is relative. Or fluid. this means that nothing can be unjustly invalid or valid. We seem to be going into a time where the strongest will survive. Truth will be determined by the strong. Or whoever has the best media influence. 

Fake news already abounds - truth has been thrown out the window and replaced with the latest 20 secs of news. 
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#323
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@Tradesecret
Of course I agree, pedophilia and rape are always wrong, and by saying I don't hold to objective morality doesn't mean that I'm saying there are exceptions to the rule. All it means is that I don't think there is an objective grounding we can base it off that clearly and philosophically connects to morality. I also don't disagree that people seem to be more and less convinced of untrue things, but I don't think that doesn't mean we can't find the correct thing and fight for it. 
#324
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@Theweakeredge
The passage in Genesis does not condemn homosexuality. That is just due to sloppy thinking and biased thinking by atheists.

The passages condemns the act of copulation between people of the same gender. This act is possible regardless of whether the actors are gay or not, for example, as in some "gay porn" actors.

Another related point is that the Bible condemns extrajudicial killings. Thus, if I were to hear some voice tell me to go murder that person, I would immediately know that it wasn't from God because God condemns murder.
Which is how we know this is an old trick question.
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#325
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@ethang5
Not really, the bible has a lot of cases of god commanding death to cities, and such, is it really out of the realm of possibility that they would command it for something that they consider an "abomination" and I suppose that's correct, but in most cases, it is referring to the individual, and them being gay. Your example is an exception, not the rule
#326
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@Theweakeredge
The bible (OT) covers a period of about 6,000 years. There is not one instance of God telling one person to go and kill another.

Yours is an old, lame, trick question.
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#327
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@ethang5

Yeah... he does... maybe not word for word, but he demands his followers to tear down cities and stuff. You are being deliberately semantic
#328
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@Theweakeredge
Of course I agree, pedophilia and rape are always wrong, and by saying I don't hold to objective morality doesn't mean that I'm saying there are exceptions to the rule. All it means is that I don't think there is an objective grounding we can base it off that clearly and philosophically connects to morality. I also don't disagree that people seem to be more and less convinced of untrue things, but I don't think that doesn't mean we can't find the correct thing and fight for it. 
I think you are now being semantical. To say there are no exceptions means ipso facto it is absolute.  And the only reason it can be absolute is because it is already implicitly based in an objective grounding.  Otherwise it must be subjective by definition.  Otherwise, there simply is no justification for making such an absolute statement.  When you assert there is no objective grounding to base this view - is just a reflection of the fact that are an atheist and do not believe in a common law situation. And yes that is consistent with your beliefs as an atheist - but not in morality and with your conscious. 

Correct means right - it means truth exists.  We are not talking about preferences or opinion or even about being consistent with your own thinking - we are talking about real right and real wrong - correct.  As society trends towards fluidity - science is thrown out the window and replaced with feelings and emotions.  What science once told us - we now dispute - this is in one sense the inevitable result of utilising evolution as part of the philosophical method.  We are constantly changing. This is the fluidity. Evolution on steroids. 

If you don't believe me - take a look at the US election results. 50% voted for Biden and thinks he is perfect. The other 50% voted for Trump and believe he has been cheated. 

Fake news is rampant. And in the USA - either half of the electorate is gullible towards the Democrats or 50% is gullible towards Trump. Truth has been lost somewhere. 

I am one who is always going to fight for the truth- this is why I am a Christian. I believe in the truth and fighting for it. 


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#329
Theweakeredge
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@Tradesecret
That is a misunderstanding of what I'm saying - whenever I say objective - I am speaking of something that is true independent from any minds - I don't think anyone has objective morality. No, whenever I say that I mean my objective standard has no objective reason to connect to morality, so no, its just you not understanding the difference. Not to mention, Christians can have the same belief of me, and lots of atheist believe there to be objective morality.

The rest is just repeated from before.
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#330
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@Tradesecret
Also, if anything you are the one being semantical here