The Democrats are going to take the wrong lessons from this election (again)

Author: HistoryBuff

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n8nrgmi
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@HistoryBuff
u didn't give a very good answer to the question of why people would vote for a conservative if they want the country to move further left. that dont make sense, and i give the average enough credit to think they wouldn't think that way.  i guess you may be onto how some people may want change for the sake of change, but that's too esoteric to think they'd use that as a reason to vote for a conservative when they want the country the country to be more progressive. 
HistoryBuff
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@n8nrgmi
u didn't give a very good answer to the question of why people would vote for a conservative if they want the country to move further left. that dont make sense, and i give the average enough credit to think they wouldn't think that way.
that is a misunderstanding of how people think. Most people don't analyze their elected official on spectrum of right to left wing policy. They look at who has a plan to actually help them. Who is going to help to fix issues in their lives. The democrats have little to no plans of doing that. So alot of Blue Dog democrats are having a hard time because they don't actually stand for anything and don't want to actually fix anything.

i guess you may be onto how some people may have change for the sake of change, but that's too esoteric to think they'd use that as a reason to vote for a conservative when they want the country the country to be more progressive. 
you and I may look at issues on a scale of right to left wing policy, alot of people don't do that. A right wing plan to help them is just as good as a left wing one. They just want someone to do something to help them. They know that things are not going well. Wages are not going up while the cost of living is. They know things are not getting better and they want someone to do something about it. They don't know precisely which policy will do that, but they want someone to change something to help them. 

If the democrats aren't going to do that, then why would they vote for them. And to quote biden, under a biden administration "nothing would fundamentally change".
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@HistoryBuff
well people do tend to be issue specific. i can see someone thinking "if you dont give me affordable healthcare, then i'll vote for the guy who will increase my wages somehow".  but i'm still having a hard time thinkin the people are voting for cconservatives cause the democrats aren't progressive enough.  i still say the electorate is moderate... if u give them something like afffordable healthcare, they will be split on everything else. there may be a liberal bias on specific issues overall, but on the whole package, they're split. they're not going to vote for a conservative cause the dems aren't progressive enough. i can't get over that point. 

i dont know, you've made me think, i'll give u that. 
n8nrgmi
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@HistoryBuff
u could just ask the electorate themselves... "As of 2013, self-identified conservatives stand at 38%, moderates at 34% and liberals at 23%". the reasons people are voting for conservative congressionmen is because they are center right.... not because they want the country to be more progressive, lol 
HistoryBuff
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@n8nrgmi
well people do tend to be issue specific. i can see someone thinking "if you dont give me affordable healthcare, then i'll vote for the guy who will increase my wages somehow".  but i'm still having a hard time thinkin the people are voting for cconservatives cause the democrats aren't progressive enough. 
again, you are framing it in a binary "left vs right" way. IE "the democrats aren't progressive enough". Most people don't think that way. They think "who has a plan to help me". So if the demcorats don't have a plan, then they will vote republican. whether it is "progressive" enough is not a factor. 

i still say the electorate is moderate... if u give them something like afffordable healthcare, they will be split on everything else.
the term "left" "right" and "moderate" are loaded terms. They don't really mean anything any more. There are alot of people who are culturally "moderate" or "right" but economically would be very happy to have universal healthcare, for example. Dems have spent years fighting over cultural issues while basically agreeing with republicans on economic policy. If you take cultural issues out of the equation, there isn't much difference between mainstream democratic and republican policy. 

Trump is a departure from that. He told people that he would do populist things (get them affordable healthcare that covers pre-existing conditions, stop the exporting of jobs etc). That is fundamentally against republican policy goals and it made him win. Now, once he got elected he didn't actually do that, but the populism was the key to winning.

democrats simply don't even pretend like they are going to implement policy people want. They stay vague on the details of how it would make people's lives better or how it is any different from what the democrats have been doing for years (which hasn't helped people). That is why democrats need specific policies that will help people. for example, medicare for all. You make it 100% clear what the benefits are. 

1) every single american gets healthcare coverage. 
2) yes your taxes will go up, but for most americans you will save money by reducing the "private taxation" of insurance costs
3) it improves worker bargaining power since employers can no longer use a loss of healthcare as a bargaining chip. 




HistoryBuff
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@n8nrgmi
"As of 2013, self-identified conservatives stand at 38%, moderates at 34% and liberals at 23%"
that's the exact same error you keep making. You are using super simplistic labels. What does being a moderate or a conservative actually mean to people? They are loaded terms. That might mean they only support right wing economic policy, or it might mean the believe in restrictive immigration, or it might mean they just believe in protecting "the family". 

When trying to determine what policy you should pursue, those labels are totally worthless. 

Danielle
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@HistoryBuff
People who actually look at what the dem's want to do (as well as the dems themselves) say they want to "change nothing". Biden said it himself at fundraiser for high dollar donors.

Do you have any evidence or proof of this to share with me? 


I mean the cages trump locked children in, were built by obama to lock children in. 

The Obama administration did not have a policy to separate families arriving illegally at the border. Family separations rarely happened under the Obama administration, which sought to keep families together in detention. Then, based on a court decision, it released families together out of detention. 


Their plan is to roll back trump's tax cuts, but i haven't seen any evidence they are willing to go much further than that. 

What do you mean by this? 


Basically none of what you have described is a fundamental change (except the environment). most of it is a return to obama era policies. IE, the failed policies that caused people to vote for trump in the 1st place. 

A return to Obama era policies is fundamental change from the status quo of Trump's policies, correct? Nonetheless you haven't denied the Dems plan to go further left than Obama on healthcare, the environment and taxes. You can read here about how Biden's tax proposals are similar to Obama's, but he has expanded on them. Regardless Biden can't do anything when it comes to taxes  - Congress has to do it. They have the power of the purse, not Biden. 

I'm curious why you think Obama won both of his elections by a landslide if his policies were so unpopular. And if Obama had similar policies to Trump's biggest proposals (i.e. the border wall) why would voters like Trump doing that but dislike Obama doing it? Which policies of Obama's do you think caused people to vote Trump? 


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@Danielle
People who actually look at what the dem's want to do (as well as the dems themselves) say they want to "change nothing". Biden said it himself at fundraiser for high dollar donors.
Do you have any evidence or proof of this to share with me? 
Here is an article which discusses biden promising nothing would fundamentally change if he was elected and basically saying that he won't tax the wealthy. 

I mean the cages trump locked children in, were built by obama to lock children in. 
The Obama administration did not have a policy to separate families arriving illegally at the border. Family separations rarely happened under the Obama administration, which sought to keep families together in detention. Then, based on a court decision, it released families together out of detention. 
I agree that trump escalated the policy. But basically all trump did was take something that was already happening (family separation) and make it the intended policy goal. I agree that is terrible, but don't pretend Obama wasn't also separating families. 

Their plan is to roll back trump's tax cuts, but i haven't seen any evidence they are willing to go much further than that. 
What do you mean by this? 
I mean they plan to roll back trump's tax cuts, but don't intend to go much further than that. So he isn't "raising taxes on the rich", he is reverting back to the obama era tax rate. 

A return to Obama era policies is fundamental change from the status quo of Trump's policies, correct? 
not really no. Most of trump's policies are the same as any other republicans policies. And most democratic policies are extremely similar to those republican policies. There are isolated cases where trump's policies were radically different, but for the most part his policy was cookie cutter republican. 

 Nonetheless you haven't denied the Dems plan to go further left than Obama on healthcare, the environment and taxes.
their plan for obamacare is to make minor changes to it. That isn't "further left". it is the same plan with minor changes. Their plan on the environment is further left, i grant that. It remains to be seen if they act on it though. their plan for taxes is the exact same as it has before. That is not "further left". It is the exact same plan dems have used for over a decade. 

You can read here about how Biden's tax proposals are similar to Obama's, but he has expanded on them. Regardless Biden can't do anything when it comes to taxes  - Congress has to do it. They have the power of the purse, not Biden. 
1) that amount of increased taxes is pretty similar to the amount trump's tax cut cost. it looks to me like just going back to the obama years. 
2) Biden is now effectively the head of the democratic party. So while yes, congress would need to agree with it, biden decides policy goals. 

I'm curious why you think Obama won both of his elections by a landslide if his policies were so unpopular.
His promises were popular. He promised universal healthcare. He promised change. But after 8 years of failing to deliver that change he screwed over the democrats hard. At the end of his term, it wasn't his hand picked successor that won, it was Trump. People realized that hilary was a "more of the same" candidate. And since obama failed for 8 years to deliver on his promises, they switched to someone else promising change. 

Which policies of Obama's do you think caused people to vote Trump? 
His failure to accomplish much to make people's lives better. After 8 years, his healthcare reform was a right wing plan that was pretty fucked up. Healthcare costs were still through the roof. Workers wages were still stagnant while costs of living were increasing. 

After 8 years of Obama people realized they were in the same situation as before, that their children were going to have less opportunity than they had and that their economic situation hadn't improved while corporations and the 1% were raking in record profits. 

I don't think it is that 1 or 2 specific policies failed. I think it is that he promised change and simply didn't deliver it. So they turned to Trump when he promised change. 
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@Danielle
I'm curious why you think Obama won both of his elections by a landslide if his policies were so unpopular.

People thought Obama was Trump-lite. That he was an outsider due to the color of his skin and could change things whereas the same old Romney and McCain were part of the insiders.

The failed Obama experiment was a blow to race realists on both the left and the right.
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@HistoryBuff
biden supports a fifteen dollar minimum wage, universal healthcare, and two year college free. you must really be splitting hairs if u dont think this is progressive enough.  this is the trifecta that bernie always howls about. the only difference, is bernie just wants to throw money at college with an open checkbook, and maybe he wants to get gov's healthcare costs under control, but most people dont care about government's costs as long as their healthcare is affordable. 

on the label. point. labels exist for a reason. it's possible to be a right wing populist, if u have policies that help small business or help people. 'degregulation = good or bad" is too simpliistic, sometimes it's good and somttimes it's bad, but folks will buy into the conservative spin if it fits their ideology. i think u and i agree that the future of success in politics is who will be the most populist? but that doesn't always mean being the most liberal. it's about being the most moderate, on all things populist. u can't be cross partyideologicaly populist, unless u r a moderate. 
n8nrgmi
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think of a politician who wants to have his cake and eat it too.... increased minimum wage, affordable universal healthcare, affordable college, deregulating, helping small businesses, etc. helping the unborn, if that's ur form of populism. this crosses party lines, at least on the label. it's most likely a moderate who would do this. 
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@n8nrgmi
biden supports a fifteen dollar minimum wage
that's good. But the fact that I haven't heard anything about that (and also that he is rumored to be filling his cabinet with right wing hacks) makes me think this is not a priority of his presidency. 

universal healthcare
no he doesn't. He wants to make minor tweaks to obama care that would get more people healthcare, but definitely not all. 

you must really be splitting hairs if u dont think this is progressive enough.
how so? the minimum wage increase is a good start, but frankly that is just the tip of the iceberg. Take a look at this article. If the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation it would be much higher than $15 per hour. While this is a good step in the right direction, it is a bandaid on gunshot wound. The buying power of workers has diminished significantly over the last few decades. While I agree this is a good step, it isn't anywhere near far enough to fix our economy's issues. 

He doesn't support universal healthcare, he just wants to make minor changes to the failed right wing plan obama tried to implement. So that is nowhere near progressive enough. 

And I agree free college is a step in the right direction. But again, he is filling his cabinet with right wing people. When his plan to start with is kind of weak, will what he actually does even come close? Obama promised universal health care and didn't get anywhere near that. 

this is the trifecta that bernie always howls about. the only difference, is bernie just wants to throw money at college with an open checkbook, and maybe he wants to get gov's healthcare costs under control, but most people dont care about government's costs as long as their healthcare is affordable. 
no, the difference is that Bernie's plans actually accomplish those goals. It makes sure that every american gets healthcare. It makes sure that every american gets access to higher education. Biden's plans mean a few more people get healthcare, millions wont. And the cost of that healthcare will still be way too high for millions more. It means that students will have access so some higher education. but it remains to be seen how much or how easily. 

The difference is that  Sanders' plan aims to fix a problem, while biden attempts to make a problem a bit less bad. 

 i think u and i agree that the future of success in politics is who will be the most populist? but that doesn't always mean being the most liberal.
I agree. but since the populist policy usually is nothing like the democratic party position, that is a serious problem. Biden's made some weak promises that if implemented as promised would make things better. But they have no chance of fixing the issue entirely. And since we all saw Obama make big promises then fail to keep most of them, I am supremely skeptical that Biden, a right wing democrat, will fight hard to keep these promises he was forced to make. 

it's about being the most moderate, on all things populist. u can't be cross partyideologicaly populist, unless u r a moderate. 
you are falling into the useless definition's again. the word "moderate" doesn't mean anything. there are lots of people who are socially moderate, but would love medicare for all. They would describe themselves as moderate. So saying you need to be populist but "moderate" is a meaningless sentence. 
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@HistoryBuff
he did better than house dems because he cheated
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Y'all can relax; both camps.
11/23: all counties must have their ballot certifications into their respective State Election Board. Also last day to file any petition to challenge election results.
12/08: All states must resolve all election controversies.
12/14: Electoral College votes

So, no official election results for another 35 days. Everybody can hold your tongue until then. Try
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@Dr.Franklin
So the democrats cheated to help Biden but forgot to help their House candidates at the same time? How careless of them.
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Bloodbaths coming for Democrats in the House and Senate if Biden is officially declared the next President
HistoryBuff
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@Dr.Franklin
he did better than house dems because he cheated
this is just getting sad. Trump lost, deal with it. 

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@ILikePie5
Bloodbaths coming for Democrats in the House and Senate if Biden is officially declared the next President
Biden has already won

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@HistoryBuff
Biden has already won
Not officially. The Electoral College hasn’t met yet.
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@HistoryBuff
i mean, the divided congress should be obvious enough when it's the biggest turn out in history, that moderation is the key to future. 

but people want populism. there is populism on both sides. any politician who would bridge the ideological divide to take the best populism from both sides, is pretty much by definition a moderate.
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@HistoryBuff
The problem is that politics and political support is largely based on historically acquired bias.   And just like here in the U.K. the split is usually 50/50 ish....So every 4 or 5 years or so the election is decided by the minority of unbiased voters....And this year in the U.S. they obviously realised the mistake the made four years ago, in voting for an intellectually inept megalomaniac. 

Republicans just need to find a credible candidate for next time....Because it was only Trump that lost this election....Biden was just, clearly the better a option.

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@HistoryBuff
trump won,  but they will say he lost
Conway
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@Theweakeredge
Well, that difference is in what framework we're viewing the political spectrum. The Overton Window in America is shifted dramatically to the right, where those in Europe are just standardly to the left or barely leaning to that side of the spectrum, are considered radically left or Marxists or Communists in America. Essentially, I'm not really viewing it through the Overton Window of America, at least not your typical one.

State sanctioned religion, Monarchy, fascism, and socialism seem to be altogether incompatible with the way Americans tend to approach politics.  A great deal of people who came to the United States evidently considered such notions intolerable, and the American people are not often predisposed to view their government as a leviathan like the famous English philosopher Thomas Hobbes.  Citizens of the United States would rather eat grass than live in the knowledge that they've exchanged their national sovereignty to the heads of state in exchange for security, a prerequisite to the philosophy of "social democracy".   Our government must have reasonable justification for its current state, whereas an Englishman must have reasonable justification for their current freedom.  Americans aren't on a common spectrum with predominant thinkers of Germany and even though they share common law they have quite a different relationship with the State than the subjects of the United Kingdom.  

Perhaps that is why Americans consider "socialism" objectionable, not purely as a matter of effective policy, but the means of progress that Europeans may be conditioned to. 
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@Conway
State sanctioned religion, Monarchy, fascism, and socialism seem to be altogether incompatible with the way Americans tend to approach politics.
Monarchy? Intolerable? Nearly 50% of the country tried to elect Trump. Who has gone on record to say that they should just get rid of the election altogether and just let him rule? The notion that they are against a monarchy is an ignorant position.


  A great deal of people who came to the United States evidently considered such notions intolerable, and the American people are not often predisposed to view their government as a leviathan like the famous English philosopher Thomas Hobbes.  
I would agree maybe some on them, but people didn't just come to escape political or religious oppression, some came to propagate religious and political oppression in a new place where they could get away with it. Some came to escape famine and the like and didn't have a particular opinion on the matter save, "If I can feed my family and I" This is an oversimplification of even what the majority came to America for.


 Citizens of the United States would rather eat grass than live in the knowledge that they've exchanged their national sovereignty to the heads of state in exchange for security, a prerequisite to the philosophy of "social democracy". 
Their "National Sovereignty" such as what? Is it people getting free health care? Making it to where emergency medical care isn't one of the top bankrupts? Make it to where they can't just rob victims of their earnings for something that usually isn't their fault? Perhaps you mean gun regulation, which isn't socialist in the first place, or free college? None of it is, and this sort of concern is unwarranted. Literally, this was something somebody said and nobody bothered to fact-check and now everyone i spewing it.


 Our government must have reasonable justification for its current state, whereas an Englishman must have reasonable justification for their current freedom. 
To do what? Exchange the vague term national sovereignty? An Englishman would not have to have justify their freedom, in fact, a document established in 1689 in England called, "The Bill of Rights" (Hmmm) established Constitutional Monarchy and set the same grounds for rights long before America. Not to mention the several several documents and procedures America copied from England. No. This is not true.


  Americans aren't on a common spectrum with predominant thinkers of Germany and even though they share common law they have quite a different relationship with the State than the subjects of the United Kingdom.  
Obviously not, that was my entire point, that people in America have a political view, on average, which is shifted far further right than the average in Europe. Things such as free health care are pretty standard there, whereas here it is a supposed call out of socialism. I think maybe people might have forgotten their inalienable rights, "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Pretty hard to be living, if one trip to the hospital takes all of your savings. 


Perhaps that is why Americans consider "socialism" objectionable, not purely as a matter of effective policy, but the means of progress that Europeans may be conditioned to. 
That was never my point, my other point was that people tend to mislabel socialism as what is really standard left values, not even far left, moderate left in most cases. It is incorrect that what they are currently objecting to is socialism, its not, what they are objecting to is focusing on actual people instead of pure profit as they have. Not to say capitalism is something which should be abolished, but as all things that have the power to harm massive amounts of people, it must be regulated.



Conway
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@Theweakeredge
Their "National Sovereignty" such as what? Is it people getting free health care? Making it to where emergency medical care isn't one of the top bankrupts? Make it to where they can't just rob victims of their earnings for something that usually isn't their fault? Perhaps you mean gun regulation, which isn't socialist in the first place, or free college? None of it is, and this sort of concern is unwarranted. Literally, this was something somebody said and nobody bothered to fact-check and now everyone i spewing it.

National sovereignty distinguishes "the people" of a country from the current state of the union.  A country or state is comprised of both a defined state, and the people.  
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@Conway
Agreed, but that doesn't really address the criticisms I'm criticizing. 
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@Theweakeredge
I'm impressed that you've looked into the history of the Constitution.  Maybe I will get around to this, but the formatting where we take each sentence and apply an additional context isn't exactly intuitive to me.  Sovereignty is not a vague term, and it shouldn't be taken to implicate a particular policy either.  Sometimes I'll poke fun and say "left" is just vaguery contrived by people who suck at war.  
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@Conway
Left is vague agreed, and but I don't see the second part, and agree to disagree on that last part. To sematic for me to argue right now.
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@Theweakeredge
It's a French concept.  I'm not sure when it came into fashion in the United States to obscure political coalitions this way.
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@Conway
Huh, that's interesting, I'll look into it. Right now I have a heap of things to do, and such, I have made a to-do list