The Democrats are going to take the wrong lessons from this election (again)

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#1
HistoryBuff
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I was skimming through CNN when I came across this article. My take away from this article is that the author believes that Biden was a strong candidate. They use the fact that biden outran democrats in house elections as evidence of this. But they have entirely missed the point. Biden didn't outrun the house democrats because people like or want Biden. He outran them because people are sick of trump. 

The fact that people voted to get rid of trump, but still voted against the democrats down ballot is evidence that they don't like the democratic platform. And that platform was decided by Biden and his team. The democrats massively underperformed polls and only narrowly beat a president who is widely hated. 

This is a stinging rebuke of the crappy democratic platform of "return to normal". People don't want that, they want change. But democratic leadership and analysts look like they are gearing up to point the blame for their failures at others and continue to learn nothing. 

#2
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@HistoryBuff
exactly. At this point people are simply questioning which turd they prefer... that's not a good sign for the future of American politics
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@MisterChris
exactly. At this point people are simply questioning which turd they prefer... that's not a good sign for the future of American politics
both democrats and republicans have become entrenched in ideological positions that they are completely unable and unwilling to reconsider. So if the election goes badly, it isn't that the policy you are pushing that is wrong, it is that the voters are racist, or that there was election fraud, or that the "bernie bros" ruined everything etc. 

The republicans have been running the same shitty policy for decades now. Cut taxes on the rich, cut services for everyone. Basically, trickle down economics. 

Democrats policy isn't all that different. Slightly less egregious pandering to the wealthy, but still heavily pandering to the wealthy and screwing over the working class. 

Neither side is willing to seriously entertain the idea that designing the system to benefit the rich as much as they can is a bad thing. 

For all his many, many, many flaws; trump was willing to attack some of the unquestioned policies of the republicans (like outsourcing jobs). But once he was elected, he failed to really do anything useful about them. Once elected, 95% of the policy his government did was cookie cutter republican policy they have been pushing since Regan. 

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@MisterChris
@HistoryBuff
As a pretty left democrat, I very much disagree that Biden was a strong candidate, and agree that yes the democrats are learning the wrong lesson here. Biden is actually a pretty electable candidate (or he would have been in pretty much any other election), he's really not that left-winged, in fact, I wish he was more to the left. He's nearly a center politician, and while he went a little more to the left with some of his policies most of them are still pretty moderate.
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@Theweakeredge
I think he's far too left, so clearly we have a worldview difference here
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@Theweakeredge
I disagree with the use of the word "electable". To democrats, that word means centrist. It means no meaningful change. To them, that makes you electable. But that isn't the message the voters have been sending. They elected obama, a man who promised hope and change. A man who promised universal healthcare. They elected trump, a man who promised change. But the only message the democrats want to hear is that their failed neo-liberal policies are great and that it is everyone else who is wrong. 

The new "electable" candidate is the one who will make people's lives better. And that isn't Biden's "nothing will change" plan. He won because people are sick of the chaos, but they still want change. 
#7
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@MisterChris
Well, that difference is in what framework we're viewing the political spectrum. The Overton Window in America is shifted dramatically to the right, where those in Europe are just standardly to the left or barely leaning to that side of the spectrum, are considered radically left or Marxists or Communists in America. Essentially, I'm not really viewing it through the Overton Window of America, at least not your typical one.
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@Theweakeredge
I realize that other nations are more left-shifted, and in American politics we generally have a right shift. But imo that's not a negative thing at all. Quite the opposite really. I suppose it just depends on who you ask. 
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@HistoryBuff
Fair enough, but my main point was that Biden isn't that controversial of a figure, at least he wouldn't be without Trump and his followers. His age is literally what Trump points out as his major flaw, ignoring the fact that physicians have actually said that Trump fits the signs of a dementia case, when Trump is only 3 years younger.  Yet Americans only ever so slightly voted Trump out (or so it seems), by the barest of margins. 

That scares me. If it's only this close of a call, then that says that democrats really need to step it up and do something about their case of apparent laziness. One good note, is that during the debates, Biden admitted he made mistakes, which is already a category that makes him better than Trump, so just maybe something will be changed? I don't know, at this point we can only do our best to shift the voting in favor of what needs to happen. 
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@MisterChris
I wouldn't say in most cases it wouldn't be a negative thing, in fact, I don't think the Overton Window should be shifted left or right, just plain in the middle. It's the concept that, because the Overton is shifted to one side, the other side is compared to the worst examples of that spectrum. I.e, the comparing of Biden to a socialist..... Biden? A socialist? The socialist would be insulted. In fact, even calling Bernie a socialist is a very big stretch, and no socialist would accept the man as one.
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@Theweakeredge
He's not a socialist, but he's clearly further in that direction than most other Dems of the past. So I suppose that's what people are afraid of
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#12
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@Theweakeredge
Fair enough, but my main point was that Biden isn't that controversial of a figure, at least he wouldn't be without Trump and his followers.
I think this may be his biggest flaw. He isn't controversial because he doesn't want to fundamentally change anything. He likes things the way they are. He wants to make small changes on the margins, but leave the deeply flawed system unchanged. 

I don't know, at this point we can only do our best to shift the voting in favor of what needs to happen. 
I'm honestly not sure what voting shift would change their minds. They are convinced that neo-liberal, right wing economics is the best policy. They are highly entrenched in this mind set. So if they lose, they will blame something else. When hilary lost while running this platform, they blamed racism, sexism and "Bernie Bros". They never, for one second, considered that their shitty policies might be wrong. 

This time around, Biden didn't even bother to run on any policies. The focus of his campaign was "I will wear a mask" and "im not trump". He didn't talk about how he would improve anything. But that is because he doesn't want to, and he won't. 

In 4 years, if democrats try the "electable" candidate again, they will lose to a populist republican. 

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@MisterChris
I suppose he's starting to lean left more than other presidents, I just don't understand how his boiled down medicare could be such a big issue. He's just saying, as a base standard, everyone gets medicare. In fact, he's even arguing that private healthcare is still something he very much supports (a very not socialist position). I guess my point is that he leans left more than your average democrat. So what?
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I don't know a single Democrat that was/is excited about Joe Biden or the future of the Party. 

I have not heard a single person say things are looking good for Democrats ahead. 

It's just that they're happy Trump is gone and people feel the need to push back against their gloating with observations like this.

I'm pretty sure every single Democrat in the country knows there's a lot of work to be done. 

There's already infighting between moderates and progressives, let alone keeping the favor of non-Dems. 
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@Danielle
I'm pretty sure every single Democrat in the country knows there's a lot of work to be done.
The problem, and the point of this thread, is that the democratic leadership fundamentally do not know what that work is. They think that if they can just "return to normal" that everything will be fine. The work they plan to do is to try to restore order but to fundamentally change nothing. They will learn none of the right lessons from this election the same way they learned nothing from trump's election in 2016. 

I hope I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that biden will accomplish little to nothing meaningful in the next 4 years. In 4 years a right wing populist will run for the republicans (potentially even trump himself). And if the Democrats try this "change nothing" playbook again, they will get slaughtered. 

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#16
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This video hits on alot of my opinions of the subject. The dems need to drop the "cultural left" (cancel culture, virtue signaling etc) and embrace the economic left (higher minimum wage, medicare for all etc).

The republicans have proven that they will label any democrat a "socialist" no matter what they do or say. Biden is more right wing than lots of republicans on some issues, and is at most a centerist, certainly not a leftist. But they branded him a socialist anyway and millions of americans believed it. So trying to out "right wing" the republicans to avoid a label they are going to use anyway is a losing bet. 

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@HistoryBuff
They think that if they can just "return to normal" that everything will be fine. The work they plan to do is to try to restore order but to fundamentally change nothing. They will learn none of the right lessons from this election the same way they learned nothing from trump's election in 2016. 

All of this is your unsubstantiated opinion though, not fact. 

People can't simultaneously say Dems want to "change nothing" but at the same time say their agenda is to "implement radical far left policies." 

They will struggle to get things done but clearly want to make some fundamental changes almost all agree on. The big one is expanding government healthcare. Most Dems also want to end or mitigate Trump's border policies. They want to move toward renewable energy (the Green New Deal is very unpopular though and is not a serious goal as written). And they want to rewrite the tax code so as to tax the 1% and corporations more. Whether or not any of this gets done will largely depend on how obstructionist the GOP Senate wants to be, but it's not true they want to "fundamentally change nothing." Some are saying they want to expand the Court or add Congressional seats lol is that nothing?

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@Danielle
People can't simultaneously say Dems want to "change nothing" but at the same time say their agenda is to "implement radical far left policies." 
no one is saying both of those 2 things. Republicans are saying they want to implement radical far left policies. But this indicates they have no idea what policies biden actually supports and only get their info from right wing sources. People who actually look at what the dem's want to do (as well as the dems themselves) say they want to "change nothing". Biden said it himself at fundraiser for high dollar donors.

The big one is expanding government healthcare.
Biden's plan is to slightly expand obamacare. At best this will get more people onto healthcare (which is a net positive). but his plan does not include getting everyone onto healthcare and does not resolve the massive price gouging that is going on. It fundamentally does not fix the problems. 

Most Dems also want to end or mitigate Trump's border policies.
What does this even mean? Obama deported record numbers of people. Trump made it a more noticeable issue, but the dems agree with the republicans on border issues for the most part. I mean the cages trump locked children in, were built by obama to lock children in. 

They want to move toward renewable energy (the Green New Deal is very unpopular though and is not a serious goal as written).
The environment is one of the very few places Biden has been willing to shift a bit. 

And they want to rewrite the tax code so as to tax the 1% and corporations more. 
Have you actually looked into that though? Biden actually moved up the line where the promises of no new taxes were. Hilary was promising not to increase taxes on people making less that $100,000. Biden moved that to $400,000. Their plan is to roll back trump's tax cuts, but i haven't seen any evidence they are willing to go much further than that. 

Whether or not any of this gets done will largely depend on how obstructionist the GOP Senate wants to be, but it's not true they want to "fundamentally change nothing."
Basically none of what you have described is a fundamental change (except the environment). most of it is a return to obama era policies. IE, the failed policies that caused people to vote for trump in the 1st place. 

Some are saying they want to expand the Court or add Congressional seats lol is that nothing?
Some are saying that. Biden repeatedly refused to comment on it. So there is no evidence Biden would even consider that. 


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@HistoryBuff
if biden isn't widely embraced by america, it's not a signal to double down on the far left. it's a sign that americans aren't that far left to begin with. if you give them a sensible healthcare plan, they will vote republican or a moderate democrat. eventually, that's what's going to happen... we'll get universal healthcare, and it will be taken as self evident as something we should have did a long time ago like every other country that covers everyone at half the cost. and then it will be the moderates who rule the roost. 
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biden got twice the vote than bernie did when it was just man to man combat in the election. that signals america isn't far left. and it's just stupid to think if the left didn't want bernia that conservatives and moderates would in the general election. there's no evidence that doubling down on the far left makes any sense whatsoever. 
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@n8nrgmi
if biden isn't widely embraced by america, it's not a signal to double down on the far left. it's a sign that americans aren't that far left to begin with.
for this to make sense, biden would have to be remotely left to begin with. He isn't. 

The issue is the super simplistic "left" vs "right" mentality. people want a solution that will fix the problem. The labels are not helpful. If you ask someone if they are right, moderate or left, most would tell you moderate. But if you ask that same person issue by issue what policy they support, you will get alot more people describing "left" policy positions. Dems need to stop worrying about labels so much and actually set out policy that will help people. 

Design a healthcare plan that gets every single american health coverage at a reasonable cost. People will support that. Biden's plan doesn't even try to do that. 

Set a policy goal to get every american a wage they can actually live on. People will support that. 


biden got twice the vote than bernie did when it was just man to man combat in the election. that signals america isn't far left.
no, it signals that alot of democratic primary voters care more about "electability" (their perceived notion of what is electable) than about actual policy that will help people (the thing that would actually help them get elected). 
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@HistoryBuff
how do you respond to this? 

"biden got twice the vote than bernie did when it was just man to man combat in the election. that signals america isn't far left. and it's just stupid to think if the left didn't want bernia that conservatives and moderates would in the general election. there's no evidence that doubling down on the far left makes any sense whatsoever. "
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@n8nrgmi
I edited the previous post to include an answer to that. that reply wasn't there when I originally posted it. 
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@HistoryBuff
so your theory is that bernie is more electable, but that the left was fooled into thinking that he's less electable? 
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@n8nrgmi
so your theory is that bernie is more electable, but that the left was fooled into thinking that he's less electable? 
Here is poll I pulled up from the primary. The most important issue to democratic primary voters by a huge margin was the ability to beat trump. If you watched any coverage from outlets like CNN or MSNBC, you know that they repeated over and over and over that Bernie was "unelectable" or "unlikeable". Some of the descriptions of him were outrageous. One MSNBC analyst actually compared him winning Nevada to a Nazi invasion. They beat that dead horse over and over and over the entire race. So if you are a democratic primary voter whose primary goal is to beat trump, which candidate do you back? The one whose policy goals you most agree with? Or the one you perceive as most likely to beat trump? For a large percentage of voters, it was perceived ability to beat trump. 

Mainstream news and the democratic party establishment tried their hardest to tip the scales in favor of a "moderate" (right wing candidate). In the end the succeeded. 
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@HistoryBuff
also, why, in the greatest turnout in history, did congress get split down the middle instead of a blue wave? 
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@n8nrgmi
also, why, in the greatest turnout in history, did congress get split down the middle instead of a blue wave? 
because people do not agree with democratic party policy. They want change. They elected Obama for "hope and change". He didn't accomplish much of it. They elected trump also looking for change. He too failed to accomplish much. People wanted Trump out, but they didn't actually support the shitty neo-liberal policies of the democrat's. 

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@HistoryBuff
just because their primary goal was to beat trump, doesn't mean they aligned more with bernie on substance. 
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@HistoryBuff
the actual dem party platform is the most progressive in history. and if you think the left isn't going far left enough, it makes no sense to think the remedy for that is voting for a conservative. how does that make sense? 
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@n8nrgmi
just because their primary goal was to beat trump, doesn't mean they aligned more with bernie on substance. 
my statement was that their primary goal was to beat trump. If they listened to any mainstream news outlet at all, they were bombarded with messages that bernie wasn't "electable". This could convince alot of people to vote against the person they would prefer in favor of someone who could accomplish their primary goal. 

the actual dem party platform is the most progressive in history. 
like what exactly? What progressive policy goals do you think they have? And even if I believed that, Biden is vetting right wing corporatists to fill his cabinet. He has little no intention of doing virtually anything progressive. If you believe otherwise, please explain what this "progressive" policies are.

 it makes no sense to think the remedy for that is voting for a conservative. how does that make sense? 
the dems have no plans to fix most of america's problems. As flawed as the trump and the republicans are, at least they are talking about the issues. The dem's message was to "go back to normal" and "nothing would fundamentally change".

Also, nancy pelosi were playing games with people's lives by refusing to pass any stimulus in an attempt to undercut trump. She is ruining people's lives to score political points. people don't like that.