Matthew 27:52-53

Author: Stephen 4 years ago

Posts

Total: 74

#31

Tradesecret

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,437

Tradesecret

10.27.2020 06:27AM

-->

@zedvictor4

There are no real qualifications though.

Are you assuming that my qualifications obtained from a world class reputable university are not real? Wow! that certainly is a huge assertion. Would you care to prove that a post graduate degree from Melbourne University is not a real qualification?

Pseudo-qualification and sincerity, still doesn't validate the Christian god hypothesis....Or the Christian god hypothesis doesn't validate your pseudo-qualifications or sincerity.

LOL @ you. What qualification do you think I obtained that makes you think it is a pseudo- qualification? Did I ever indicate that my qualification proves the existence of God? You just speak nonsense - it seems you are the one that does not have qualifications to make such assertions?

You might or might not be counselling troubled people with invalid data.

And pray tell - what is the invalid date that I am using?

It seems to me that you are the one who is playing dumb. Every world class university in the world has the post grad degrees that I hold. You calling it pseudo only reveals your atheistic worldview. You however don't even play in the real world. Do you leave your home - or do you spend all day playing on your computer? DO you have a real job? Do you have trouble making friends?

#32

Juice

Debates: 1

Posts: 63

Juice

10.27.2020 06:36AM

Here's a verse for yall religious folks

Judges 19:23-24

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing.

24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine (wife, women who lives with a male) and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go.

26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold.

28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer (dead). Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

I assume Jesus was having a smoke or a quick beer while this girl was being gang-raped.

Topic's author

#33

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

10.27.2020 10:26AM

-->

@Tradesecret

I scrutinize everything.

Except the scriptures; that make it very clear that kings of Israel were called "sons of God". How ever did you think you were going to get away with calling me a liar and asking me for evidence to support my alleged "lies " to prove something that YOU- with all of your alleged "qualifications" should have known to be factual?

Or have you forgotten this false accusation ? >>>"You have still to produce the evidence for your lies that all kings of Israel were called Sons of God". #21 Tradesecret

For all of your alleged "qualifications" and claims that you "scrutinize EVEYTHING" and teaching your flock the "truth" you simply didn't know the Kings of Israel where sons of god.

Tell me why should I have to produce evidence for something you should automatically know? You asked for this evidence because (1) you didn't know where to find it for yourself, did you? (2) You didn't believe it. You simply wanted me to lead you by your snooty snout to the evidence that you have never ever seen not to mention even read before that are in your own scriptures.

This is why you despise me so much.

I don't despise you, silly. stop being so dramatic. . I have told you before, I like you. But I also feel sorry for you, because you are beginning to realise that you don't actually know anything about these ancient scriptures. You admit to being told and then "passing on " what you have been told. I noticed that you don't even mention that you "scrutinize" what it is you have been told for yourself before "merely passing it on". have you forgotten this also? >> "#20 Tradesecret. >>>>

"I in most parts are are merely passing on the teaching of what i have received.

I constantly reveal that you have no clue what you are talking about.

No, what you do is - tell me that I " don't know I am on about". There is a difference my lawyer friend as you should well know.

I could care less about being your lawyer. You seem like most of my clients - you think you know better than the lawyer.

Here you go again, interchanging criminal lawyer & religious preacher. Stop being silly. I actually wouldn't want you to be neither my lawyer or my religious instructor/teacher, because you are terribly lacking in both fields.

no comment is the right thing to do. …..It is always the best thing to do - especially when you have the right answers.

Or simply no answer at all.

It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case.

I agree. This will be the dictate concerning The Burden of Proof, wouldn't it? The obligation to provide sufficient supporting evidence for any arguments that YOU make. Along with - It is to he that makes the claims to provide the proof? Something you fail to do often. It's a shame that YOU do not use the same yardstick when it comes to claims YOU have made about the bible.
Yes, I fail sometimes.

You do when it comes to scripture. You know why that is too don't you? Its because for all of your claims that you scrutinise these scriptures and for all of your alleged "qualifications", you have never read these scriptures for your self without interference . You have been told to turn to a page, had read out, and then explained for you and then, you have "merely passed it on"#20 WITHOUT QUESTION.

So what I am human. I am not pretending to know everything or to have all the answers.

That is correct, you don't. But it hasn't stopped you "qualifying" in the religious fields as both Pastor and Chaplain, has it? Do you think you deserve those qualifications and the revered titles that come with them?, when for instance, you didn't even know that the kings of Israel were all called sons of god? This is what I meant when I told you that you had been led to the fluffy explainable scriptural verses and steered well away from the problematic biblical verses. In other words, you are simply a dupe.

There are plenty of times I say I don't know.

I have only seen you admit that once and you was praised and thanked for you candor. But it is a shame that you don't admit to "not knowing" something BEFORE you accuse others of lying and and being liars. Remember this>>>

"You have still to produce the evidence for your lies that all kings of Israel were called Sons of God". #21 Tradesecret

Or I say I am speculating.

You do. as do I. I will always state that I have no evidence when I don't have any evidence for what I actually believe. But YOU KEEP FOGETTING, I have absolutely no reason to lie about these scriptures. I have nothing to defend about them. They are either correct or they are not. it is your job to defend them because you/ Christians claim it is the truth.

I use the appropriate yardstick when coming to bible. I don't use beyond reasonable doubt I use on the balance of probabilities - and this is the standard that people who study history and documents use.

No you don't. You have shown us that you don't. You believe these "miracles" but cannot prove how they were miracles or how they were done. you rely TOTALLY on faith alone. You don't reason and you certainly do not use "balance of probabilities"

The fact that you don't even realise this only demonstrates your ignorance.

I knew that the Kings of Israel where called sons of god, princess, and YOU DIDN'T!!!!!!

So, yes, my client's pay me for the work I do for them. Do you have a problem with people being paid?

Not at all, but it was you that brought "YOUR CLIENTS" into a thread concerning questions about the bible, that you cannot yourself answer. It wasn't me.

Again I respond to the waffle you ask.

You mean my awkward questions that you actually avoid. Or sometimes even simple questions .

The fact you think you can JUDGE me - is sad and pathetic.

I haven't judged you at all as of yet. But I will now that you have raised the point.

I judge you as a fake preacher, that doesn't understand himself the scriptures that he has been "taught to pass on".

How old are your BIBLICAL students?
They range from 16 - 90. They include undergrads through to PH.D.s and from a range of different religious and non-religious backgrounds.

Then I pity most of them, especially the younger ones. Having a fake preacher like you with qualifications that mean absolutely nothing that you have somehow earned without even knowing these scriptures for yourself and are only passing on what you have been told.

I suspect that every time I pose you an awkward question that you go running to the same cretinous teachers for an answer or dullard response such as "I don't answer yes or no questions". Yes, you really show you biblical qualifications with responses like that don't you.

Pastor and Chaplain. That doesn't understand the scriptures him/her self. You Christians just love your titles don't you.... Reverend? I bet you just love being 'revered ' too.
LOL! - I certainly don't understand the bible in the way you distort them.

How have I distort them? I should think it is impossible to distort what the bible says. The writing is there clear and unable to be distorted. DISPIUTED, INTERPRETED AND DENIED, yes, but never distorted. And you call yourself a lawyer that has scrutinised the scriptures?

just choose passages out of context and run with it.

Yes this is the typical - clutching at straws - response the atheist are used to when the theist runs out of logical, common sense replies or answers. You are even too afraid now to even confirm if I am right or wrong on my own understanding of certain verses. here is a good example>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4911-of-pigs-and-men?page=1&post_number=15

But hey - don't let the facts stand in the way of playing your game. And I am not a reverend.

I never let the facts get in the way, that will be the clergy that does that (and YOU PASTOR, are about to do exactly that, any time now) . . And I think that you have just outed yourself a natural born liar with that statement in bold above.

Why? You may well ask? Because Pastors are addressed as Reverend. WHAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!! you din't know that either!!!!????? I just knew that I would catch you out on that one.

Deleted your false accusations.

And I will repeat them, those BIBLICAL accusations, especially in the light of what you have UNITENTIONALLY revealed about yourself above :

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

INDEED!

I replied to yet another of your unfounded accusations about me here. I see you have avoided it like one of the Egyptian plagues.

Son of God.
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4969-the-sons-of-god

Yes, I saw that - and thank you. I am glad you took the time to FINALLY answer my question.

You mean replied . Yes , I replied to something you should have known all along in your capacity as both " Pastor AND Chaplain", shouldn't you Reverend?

I am not expecting an apology .. Reverend
Good, because I don't apologise unless I have done something wrong.

It was a FALSE accusation though wasn't it? AND I did say I didn't expect one. Although, as CLEALY shown above you called me a liar and now I proven my innocence of the / YOUR, false accusation;

"You have still to produce the evidence for your lies that all kings of Israel were called Sons of God". #21 Tradesecret

But I have, haven't I?

#34

Tradesecret

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,437

Tradesecret

10.27.2020 11:52PM

-->

@Stephen

Firstly, you are so patronizing, it makes most people sick.

If i take a different position to you on the scriptures - it does not mean I do not scrutinize the Scriptures. It just means I see things differently to you. As for the Jewish Kings being called sons of God, what you have presented has not proved anything. Yet I will attend to that when I have more time. Presently, I am in disagreement with you.

You should produce evidence for what you assert not for my benefit. You have asked me to prove things you knew. And in any event, I have never pretended to know anything. And if you present an idea which I have not heard, it does not mean I have not studied, not read widely, it just means that you have provided information that I have not attended to as yet. And this by the way is how it is with EVERY ACADEMIC in the world. The next academic who says they know everything about their subject is a liar.

I do pass on most things I learn if I can. I have no pretensions in doing otherwise. I am not so up myself that I think my own creative idea and interpretation about the bible ought to be spread about. In fact I take warm comfort in knowing that the same conclusions I draw from the bible are the same that millions over the years have come too. It means that the interpretation methodology I utilise is consistent and scientific. Your on the other hand is non-scientific because no one else comes to the conclusions you draw.

I have noted many errors in your conclusions. Yes I tell you - and yes you don't agree with me. But I stand with many others in that position. You rarely produce anyone who agrees with you. I can think of just two occasions - despite the fact that I have asked you to produce your sources (Or have you conveniently not seen that request either)

Not answering is not the same as having no answer. Jesus talks about not throwing pearls before the swine.

You talk so much nonsense.

You do when it comes to scripture. You know why that is too don't you? Its because for all of your claims that you scrutinise these scriptures and for all of your alleged "qualifications", you have never read these scriptures for your self without interference . You have been told to turn to a page, had read out, and then explained for you and then, you have "merely passed it on"#20 WITHOUT QUESTION.

Proof please. Just more patronizing absurdities. As for accusing you of lying. You did. I provided the evidence.

When do you even produce an awkward question? Most of your questions arise from other people's thinking. Not from your own studies. It worries me not a moment that you judge me a false or fake prophet or teacher. And why would it? Who are you? and what qualifications do you possess to make such a sweeping statement? Oh wait - you have none -

In relation to the Son of God, no - not yet you have not. And I will attend to that shortly.

#35

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 12,078

zedvictor4

10.28.2020 06:50AM

-->

@Tradesecret

University is university and a college is a college.

And qualifications in an assumption will always be what they are, irrespective of the sincerity of those involved.

As, no matter how refined an assumption may become, it nonetheless always remains an assumption until it is unequivocally proven to be correct.

#36

Tradesecret

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,437

Tradesecret

10.28.2020 07:10AM

-->

@zedvictor4

University is university and a college is a college.

And qualifications in an assumption will always be what they are, irrespective of the sincerity of those involved.

As, no matter how refined an assumption may become, it nonetheless always remains an assumption until it is unequivocally proven to be correct.

SO I guess that means you concede you are wrong. I accept your apology.

Topic's author

#37

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

10.28.2020 08:42AM

-->

@Tradesecret

Firstly, you are so patronizing, it makes most people sick.

No dear. Those that have been doing all the patronising over the millennia are people calling themselves Chaplin, Vicars , Pastors and Priests. It is to people such as these that the grieving turn to in their desperate hours and are in need of comfort at a time of grief or disappointment only to be patronised with utter unadulterated lies about the resurrection and an afterlife.

If i take a different position to you on the scriptures -

I don't particularly care what position you take. I am just reading and scrutinizing and questioning the scriptures. You just don't like my questions .

it does not mean I do not scrutinize the Scriptures.

Well, you have proven then that you are absolutely hopeless at scrutinizing these ancient documents haven't you? I mean, how ever could you forget a fact that all kings of Israel where called sons of god? How? Which then brings into question your abilities in your other alleged field of "qualifications" at law and that of a defence lawyer .

It just means I see things differently to you.

You do. But your "different" is exactly how you have been trained << emphasis on trained, to see ' things' . Which also happen to be exactly as your church and your faith causes you "to see things".

As for the Jewish Kings being called sons of God, what you have presented has not proved anything.

This is simple denial. Again this is you proving that you have not read these scriptures for yourself and certainly have not scrutinized them as you insist on claiming to have done. But I, and no doubt the two posters that agree with me on the Sons of God thread, cannot wait to read your rebuttal.. of the scriptures themselves. I won't let you forget the SONS OF GOD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4969-the-sons-of-god

Yet I will attend to that when I have more time.

Yes. I think you have to consult you "elders " again don't you? when you shouldn't even have to . It is there in the scriptures that you claim to be "qualified " in to preach, teach and "pass on " to the very young and the old and frail .

Presently, I am in disagreement with you.

YOU CALLED ME A LIAR!!!!!you didn't just say you disagreed with me ?

You should produce evidence for what you assert not for my benefit.

I will produce it when I am asked to and need to as I have done. I know you are struggling with this but it is all your own doing. Like I have already said, you should have known what I said to be true after all of your forensic scrutinizing of the scriptures. But the fact is though is that you are just a fake and a liar.

You have asked me to prove things you knew.

Not I haven't. Give me one example, just one?

And in any event, I have never pretended to know anything.

You have!!!!! You have told us of your "qualifications" and in which fields you gained them. You insist that you have "scrutinized the scriptures" you tell us that you " scrutinize EVERYTHING". And with those alleged qualifications means that you know a little bit of something.

And if you present an idea which I have not heard, it does not mean I have not studied, not read widely,

I didn't present an IDEA though did I? I simply presented (as have others on that thread) biblical and other evidence for my claim that all kings of Israel were called Son of God. The "IDEA" as you put it was gleaned from the scriptures THEMSELVES and is there for anyone to read for themselves. You just haven't and didn't even bother to before calling me a liar, besides which YOU SHOULD ALREADY KNOW!!!!!!

here is just one example: King Solomon:

I Chronicles 22:9-10

Behold, a son shall be born to you [David],...his name shall be Solomon....He shall build a house for My Name; he shall be a son to Me, and I will be a Father to him, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever.

it just means that you have provided information that I have not attended to as yet.

It's written in the fkn scriptures FFS! You are the one that claims to be "qualified" in this very field to pass this information onto others. Or are you just like the others , those that want to keep this critical information away from your flock because of the problems it raises?

And this by the way is how it is with EVERY ACADEMIC in the world. The next academic who says they know everything about their subject is a liar.

I agree. But of all the things that are required in religious "academia" is that the "academic" should have at least read and studied every page of the bible. You haven't. How ever you gained your alleged "qualifications" in the field of religious studies surly must be brought into question.

I do pass on most things I learn if I can.

What do you mean "if I can"? It is your duty as a Christian and it a command from your lord and god. Or didn't you know that either? Mark 16:15

I have no pretensions in doing otherwise.

I see. And will you be informing your flock about these other very human Sons of god?

I am not so up myself that I think my own creative idea and interpretation about the bible ought to be spread about.

Yes, you are tied confined now aren't you? You cannot go against what you have had rammed down your throat over the years that which you are now ramming down others throats. You would look silly wouldn't you, Reverend? With you being a "qualified" Chaplin and Pastor and Preacher. They do say that the abused go on to be abusers themselves.

In fact I take warm comfort in knowing that the same conclusions I draw from the bible are the same that millions over the years have come too.

I believe you. I have just recently said as much myself about Christians here>>.#22

It means that the interpretation methodology I utilise is consistent and scientific.

That is simply opinion. You use a "method" of starting by being told , then believing what you have been told, and then claiming to other that what you have been told is the gospel truth, or "passing on". it is not a method, it is a mantra.

Your on the other hand is non-scientific because no one else comes to the conclusions you draw.

Oh? Try here #2 FLRW or #3 rosends.. There is nothing scientific about the New Testament. Unless you can explain "scientifically" how Jesus "walked on water", how he raised days old dead corpses back you the land of the living and how he cured a blind man by spiting at him? off you go I am sure the whole fkn forum is waiting for your scientific explanations for the phenomena.

I have noted many errors in your conclusions. Yes I tell you - and yes you don't agree with me.

Then do so on the correct thread.

You rarely produce anyone who agrees with you.

See above. But that is the whole point of debate and discussion, an argument of different opinions that disagree.

I can think of just two occasions - despite the fact that I have asked you to produce your sources (Or have you conveniently not seen that request either)

GREAT! Lets see them . I have invited you to do so on may occasions. And I also have admitted that I cannot always support MY OWN beliefs. but again, you keep forgetting that I have nothing to defend where these scriptures are concerned . How many times do i have to explain this to you Reverend? I read, I scrutinise, I study and then I ask questions. They just happen to be questions you don't like and cannot respond to or simply answer.

Not answering is not the same as having no answer. Jesus talks about not throwing pearls before the swine.

Yes he does. what is he talking about when he say that. do you even know?

As for accusing you of lying. You did. I provided the evidence.

Where. you haven't proven a damn thing and this just just piling on another lie. Show me where I have lied and where you have proved me to be lying. And hurry up you coward!!!!!

When do you even produce an awkward question?

If the are not awkward, then why simply not answer my questions.

Most of your questions arise from other people's thinking.

No. Only some, maybe. But 99% of my inquiries are raised by the contradictory, ambiguous and unreliable half stories in the scriptures themselves. But how would you know this/ You haven't even read the scriptures for yourself have you.

Not from your own studies.

Wrong again. And studies do cause people to raise questions. But again, you wouldn't know this either would you?

You appear on the back foot with these last few ad hominem comments my dear. I think you are running out of provable accusations .

It worries me not a moment that you judge me a false or fake prophet or teacher.

Well it wouldn't would it. That is arrogance for you.

And why would it?

I don't know, tell me why would it?

In relation to the Son of God, no - not yet you have not. And I will attend to that shortly.

like I have said. keep it to the correct thread , eh. here it is. https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4969-the-sons-of-god

what qualifications do you possess

It is your own alleged "qualifications" that you have brought into question ,princess. not mine. I have never claimed to posses any, never, at all. Besides , it would make absolutely no difference. Or are you claiming that one has to believe in god to have studied these unreliable scriptures for themselves.

You really do get things backward don't you? Even with all of your lawyer training. Here I'll explain.

->@zedvictor4 There are no real qualifications though.
Tradesecret, replied : Are you assuming that my qualifications obtained from a world class reputable university are not real? Wow! that certainly is a huge assertion. Would you care to prove that a post graduate degree from Melbourne University is not a real qualification? #31

No, you just don't see it do you? Arrogance you see, always get in the way and blinds the arrogant. You first made the claim and bragged about your "quantification" as being Chaplin and also a Pastor and also a Lawyer. So first YOU have to prove that you have those qualifications in the first place otherwise what is the point?

But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation. I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications.

Defence forces? Would that be the Salvation Army or the Armed forces. Let me guess..... The Red Cross?????

#38

Tradesecret

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,437

Tradesecret

10.28.2020 11:21AM

-->

@Stephen

I am not going to reply to your patronizing nonsense. You ask questions. I answer. You use it against me. You are a pissant. Seriously!

Topic's author

#39

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

10.28.2020 11:44AM

-->

@Tradesecret

And you madam are a total fraud, that has been led by the invisible ring through your nose for most of you life and still are being so led.

I have show how seriously bible ignorant you are and to be a false accuser. You should be damn well ashamed of yourself. You have put your religion, your beliefs your faith and dare I sat it - your calling - all to shame. You madam, are a sham. I have known Boring Prophets that make more sense than yourself.: here>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqaQ_Bhgmrc

But in my role as a pastor - which I also do, I counsel in pastoral care. And yes, I am qualified by certified colleges with proper accreditation. I am also a chaplain to our Countries Defence forces, a position I could not have without proper qualifications.

Defence forces? Would that be the Salvation Army or the Armed forces. Let me guess..... The Red Cross?????

I am not going to reply to your patronizing nonsense.

Its the Red Cross isn't it???

365 days later

#40

secularmerlin

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,093

secularmerlin

10.29.2021 11:17AM

-->

@Tradesecret

Do I charge people to listen to my version of the gospels? No, I don't charge students, I charge universities when they request me to lecture to them.

This seems awfully like charging students with extra steps.

#41

Polytheist-Witch

Debates: 1

Posts: 4,188

Polytheist-Witch

10.29.2021 01:37PM

Oh please if he was lecturing on anything other than theism you wouldn't give a crap it would just be someone lecturing at a college for a fee.

#42

secularmerlin

Debates: 0

Posts: 7,093

secularmerlin

10.29.2021 06:05PM

-->

@Polytheist-Witch

Oh please if he was lecturing on anything other than theism you wouldn't give a crap it would just be someone lecturing at a college for a fee.

Clearly you haven't been following my posts concerning my opinion of the exploitative nature of capitalism.

Topic's author

#43

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

10.30.2021 10:23AM

-->

@Polytheist-Witch

Oh please if he was lecturing on anything other than theism you wouldn't give a crap.

This is true. I wouldn't give a crap if he lectured on anything else.

But he does lecture on the bible and tutors students in all matters biblical and religion, doesn't he , Witch? He is both a Pastor and a Chaplin to his countries armed forces too with many "qualifications and "accreditations" in religious instruction. He tells us that he "encourages his students to question" him too, yet extremely reluctant to answer what he himself calls "very basic questions" on a religion forum that he has freely joined ?

Are you seriously saying that of all the members posting on this religion forum that the one NOT to ask questions concerning anything god and scripture that the Reverend Tradesecrete is NOT the one to ask about matters of god, the bible and religion?

#44

Polytheist-Witch

Debates: 1

Posts: 4,188

Polytheist-Witch

10.30.2021 09:22PM

No I called out people in their hypocrisy and bigotry which you gladly stepped up and showed for us thank you.

14 days later

#45

BrotherD.Thomas

Debates: 0

Posts: 1,145

BrotherD.Thomas

11.14.2021 08:04PM

-->

@Stephen

Stephen,

It is biblically shown that it was not a big event to have others within their graves "risen" like Jesus was subsequent to his 3 day tomb nap, and to walk around town in a zombie state smelling to the high heavens because of their rotting bodies, so saith the Lord Jesus. "Dear, did we have another event against Jesus, because I smell rotting bodies again!"

"If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is our faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.…" (1 Corinthians 15: 13-15)

277 days later

#46

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

Shila

08.18.2022 10:40PM

-->

@Stephen

Can anyone have a stab at this for me.

Jesus dies and then this happened

52 the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53

What does this actually mean?

It simply means Jesus’s death triggered the resurrection of his believers just as Jesus had promised.

Topic's author

#47

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

08.19.2022 05:53AM

-->

@Shila

Can anyone have a stab at this for me.

Jesus dies and then this happened

52 the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:52-53

What does this actually mean?
It simply means Jesus’s death triggered the resurrection of his believers just as Jesus had promised.

I always thought along those lines, that it simply means that the people rose up ..... but not from being physically dead in their graves.

#48

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

Shila

08.19.2022 03:52PM

-->

@Stephen

Can anyone have a stab at this for me.
Jesus dies and then this happened
52 the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Matthew 27:52-53
What does this actually mean?

It simply means Jesus’s death triggered the resurrection of his believers just as Jesus had promised.

I always thought along those lines, that it simply means that the people rose up ..... but not from being physically dead in their graves.

Matthew 27 says the bodies were in graves before they were raise.

Even Jesus’s tomb was empty after he was raised from the dead.

It’s a lesson to Christians who believe in resurrection , they should not choose to be cremated.

Topic's author

#49

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

08.20.2022 06:40AM

-->

@Shila

I always thought along those lines, that it simply means that the people rose up ..... but not from being physically dead in their graves.
Matthew 27 says the bodies were in graves before they were raise.
Even Jesus’s tomb was empty after he was raised from the dead.

Indeed and any outside of Jesus' circle was considered "dead". As in, "let the dead bury the dead"Luke 9:60. So regardless of what anyone may believe, these people that rose en mass from their "graves" simply means that they woke up to the unjustness and the tyranny of 1st century Palestine when the Christ was nailed up..

Even Jesus’s tomb was empty after he was raised from the dead.

Stop being so silly. An empty to tomb is evidence only that a tomb was empty. Absolutely no one witnessed the Christ rise from being physically and biologically dead from the cold slab he was said to have been laid on and walk away from the private burial tomb in a privately owned garden that belong to yet another of Jesus' rich friends.

#50

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

Shila

08.20.2022 02:54PM

-->

@Stephen

Even Jesus’s tomb was empty after he was raised from the dead.

Stop being so silly. An empty to tomb is evidence only that a tomb was empty. Absolutely no one witnessed the Christ rise from being physically and biologically dead from the cold slab he was said to have been laid on and walk away from the private burial tomb in a privately owned garden that belong to yet another of Jesus' rich friends.

Jesus had a solution for doubter like you in his resurrection.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Now you know why I am both enlightened and blessed.

Topic's author

#51

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

08.20.2022 07:12PM

-->

@Shila

Even Jesus’s tomb was empty after he was raised from the dead.

Stop being so silly. An empty to tomb is evidence only that a tomb was empty. Absolutely no one witnessed the Christ rise from being physically and biologically dead from the cold slab he was said to have been laid on and walk away from the private burial tomb in a privately owned garden that belong to yet another of Jesus' rich friends.

Jesus had a solution for doubter like you in his resurrection.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

This proves nothing. It simply means Jesus was alive when and showing off his wounds. It is not proof that a dead three days old rotting and stinking corpse came back to life. In fact if it proves anything, it proves that Jesus didn't die on the cross or anywhere else.

#52

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

Shila

08.20.2022 07:40PM

-->

@Stephen

Jesus had a solution for doubter like you in his resurrection.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

This proves nothing. It simply means Jesus was alive when and showing off his wounds. It is not proof that a dead three days old rotting and stinking corpse came back to life. In fact if it proves anything, it proves that Jesus didn't die on the cross or anywhere else.

Luke 23 is proof Jesus was dead.

43 Joseph of Arimathea, a highly regarded member of the council, who was himself looking forward to the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 44 Pilate was surprised that he was already dead. He called the centurion and asked him if he had been dead for a long time. 45 When Pilate was informed by the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph (Mark 15:43-45).

Following the burial practices of the Jews, Joseph and Nicodemus wrapped the body of Jesus in linen strips and spices that would mask the smell of decomposing flesh. Though Jesus had suffered much humiliation, the honor shown in His burial marks the beginning of a shift to a more exalted state for our Lord. He was laid in a new tomb, a special place reserved in God’s providence for Him (19:40–42).

The Empty Tomb

John 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”

3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. 8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) 10 Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene

11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

So here you have proof of the death of Jesus, the burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathea and the resurrection of Jesus.

#53

FLRW

Debates: 0

Posts: 6,611

FLRW

08.20.2022 08:26PM

-->

@Shila

Jesus was never mentioned in any Roman sources and there is no archeological evidence that Jesus ever existed. Even Christian sources are problematic – the Gospels come long after Jesus' death, written by people who never saw the man.

#54

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

Shila

08.20.2022 09:15PM

-->

@FLRW

Jesus was never mentioned in any Roman sources and there is no archeological evidence that Jesus ever existed. Even Christian sources are problematic – the Gospels come long after Jesus' death, written by people who never saw the man.

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (c. AD 116),

The fact that the Romans went on to create the Roman Catholic Church based on the teaching’s ofJesus and his

Apostles lends credibility to the historical Jesus.

Topic's author

#55

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

08.20.2022 09:27PM

-->

@Shila

Jesus was never mentioned in any Roman sources and there is no archeological evidence that Jesus ever existed. Even Christian sources are problematic – the Gospels come long after Jesus' death, written by people who never saw the man.

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (c. AD 116),

The fact that the Romans went on to create the Roman Catholic Church based on the teaching’s ofJesus and his
Apostles lends credibility to the historical Jesus.

But that proves nothing. The bible say that Barabbas was released instead of Jesus but then Barabbas was also called Jesus, so which Jesus was released?

Topic's author

#56

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,616

Stephen

08.20.2022 09:39PM

-->

@Shila

So here you have proof of the death of Jesus,

Nope. No one witnessed a dead Christ.

the burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathea

The body of Jesus was placed in a tomb. So what?

and the resurrection of Jesus.

Nope. Not a single person witnessed a dead three days old , stinking and rotting corpse come back to life.

#57

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

Shila

08.20.2022 09:47PM

-->

@Stephen

So here you have proof of the death of Jesus,

Nope. No one witnessed a dead Christ.

the burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathea. So there was a body of Jesus.

The body of Jesus was placed in a tomb. So what?

and the resurrection of Jesus which was witnessed by Jesus appearing before his disciples.

Nope. Not a single person witnessed a dead three days old , stinking and rotting corpse come back to life.

Thomas confirmed the person before him was the Jesus that was crucified.

John 20:Jesus Appears to Thomas
John 20:24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”
But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

#58

FLRW

Debates: 0

Posts: 6,611

FLRW

08.20.2022 09:54PM

-->

@Shila

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (c. AD 116),

Yes, 116 years after Jesus was supposedly born. I guess he read some of the myths the newly formed Christians were spreading.

#59

Polytheist-Witch

Debates: 1

Posts: 4,188

Polytheist-Witch

08.20.2022 10:00PM

The Langobardi, by contrast, are distinguished by the fewness of their numbers. Ringed round as they are by many mighty peoples, they find safety not in obsequiousness but in battle and its perils. After them come the Reudingi, Aviones, Anglii, Varini, Eudoses, Suarini and Nuitones, behind their ramparts of rivers and woods. There is nothing noteworthy about these peoples individually, but they are distinguished by a common worship of Nerthus, or Mother Earth. They believe that she interests herself in human affairs and rides among their peoples. In an island of the Ocean stands a sacred grove, and in the grove a consecrated cart, draped with cloth, which none but the priest may touch. The priest perceives the presence of the goddess in this holy of holies and attends her, in deepest reverence, as her cart is drawn by heifers. Then follow days of rejoicing and merry-making in every place that she designs to visit and be entertained. No one goes to war, no one takes up arms; every object of iron is locked away; then, and only then, are peace and quiet known and loved, until the priest again restores the goddess to her temple, when she has had her fill of human company. After that the cart, the cloth and, if you care to believe it, the goddess herself are washed clean in a secluded lake. This service is performed by slaves who are immediately afterwards drowned in the lake. Thus mystery begets terror and pious reluctance to ask what the sight can be that only those doomed to die may see. -Tacitus

Nerthus therefore, exists.

#60

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

Shila

08.20.2022 10:16PM

-->

@FLRW

The Roman historian and senator Tacitus referred to Christ, his execution by Pontius Pilate and the existence of early Christians in Rome in his final work, Annals (c. AD 116),
Yes, 116 years after Jesus was supposedly born. I guess he read some of the myths the newly formed Christians were spreading.

Which disciples went to Rome?

Connection to Rome

In a tradition of the early Church, Peter is said to have founded the Church in Rome with Paul, served as its bishop, authored two epistles, and then met martyrdom there along with Paul.
St. Clement of Rome identifies Peter and Paul as the outstanding heroes of the faith.