what should we make of the passover and God killing his people's first born kids?

Author: n8nrgmi

Posts

Total: 48
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret



.


YOUR OUTRIGHT LIE AND BIBLE STUPIDITY ONCE AGAIN IN YOUR POST # 27: "is that the death sentence in Israel was never carried out simply by people who think they have been wronged. It was not vigilante justice - it was court convened and proper legal justice - with judges." 

Tell us Bible fool, did the one biblical narrative of MANY relative to your topic shown below have a court convened where proper legal justice was given? NOT! 

"If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, ‘I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,’  then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her;  and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, “I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity.” And yet the and they shall fine him a hundred shekels3 of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife. aHe may not divorce her all his days.  But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

“If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.
 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her,  then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife. dSo you shall purge the evil from your midst.
 
“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.  But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor,  because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her. (Deuteronomy 22: 13-27)


Tradesecret, of late, it looks as though you have taken a lot of "Bible Stupid and Ignorance Pills" at your expense once again in front of the membership!  Why? As if you RUNNING AWAY from my Jesus inspired posts directed to you wasn't enough, then I easily show you to be the #1 Bible fool on DEBATEART relgion forum! LOL!


NEXT PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN THAT IS NOT AS BIBLE STUPID AS TRADESECRET!





Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
I answered your questions.  You do not want to accept my answers and you always turn and twist what I say into something else. You are the parody. I noticed you omitted Jesus' clarification. Gee I wonder why? 

When I contextualise it with the 21st century - I do so to demonstrate a valuable point. That is the area you avoid like the plague. How many times did I insist that you justify the evilness of our own context before you go and demand a justification from another?  You NEVER discuss these points. You don't like to answer questions. This is because you are the one who has no answers. Yes, you ask a lot of questions, But you don't really want answers - unless those answers conform with your own prejudices. Your intention is not about learning - it is about tearing others down. 

I don't have to play your games. And I won't unless I feel like doing so. You can repeat ad nauseum that I omit to answer questions or that I can't justify my positions - but I do over and over again. It is like you forget how to read. 

There is no indication that this statute written refers to anyone but adults. I have - as I said in another place - accepted that the word "anyone" could possibly by some be interpreted to mean what you think it means. Yet, just because it might be interpreted that way by some - does not mean that it is what it means. Jesus clarified it about adults. The OT never in any place that I can think of - in any of their statutes ever against infants. OF course I am referring specifically to Israel - not to non-covenanted persons - where a different legal application of the law was applicable. 

Anyone - in many ways simply reflects the fact that Israel considered the family unit sacrosanct. 

Oh by the way - if cursing your mother and father is not tantamount to threats to kill, what is it? If you suggest it is just swearing at them or calling them names, prove it. Don't just bring in your 21st century contextualisation.  
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Tradesecret
Death sustains life and dog eats dog, it's the nature of things....And we like to think that we are noble, but we are all as selectively moral as the next person.

And religion and the bible are what they are, and not everyone agrees with everyone else....Though some people like to regard religion and the bible as more than what they can prove them to be..

Nonetheless, if one bases their morality on the bible, then one must also accepts the selective morality contained therein.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
I answered your questions. 

No you have simply offered a convoluted mishmash of obscure ancient lawful practice and conflated it with policing in the 21st century. Silly man.



There is no indication that this statute written refers to anyone but adults.
 yes you have attempted to use this BS before  by starting a thread on what the bible doesn't say, haven't you? here https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4785-does-god-demand-that-only-adult-animals-go-onto-the-ark?page=1
and that didn't work out too well either,  did it?


I have - as I said in another place - accepted that the word "anyone" could possibly by some be interpreted to mean what you think it means. Yet, just because it might be interpreted that way by some - does not mean that it is what it means.

 But it does mean "children" all the same doesn't it? No matter how much you attempt to determine it to mean  a "child" of adult  age and make believe that the "offence" actually means to threaten to kill ones parents. So again,  it is something the scriptures doesn't even mention. This is what you have claimed >> " It is effectively a death threat" #26. Yet the only one issuing death threats towards anyone  anywhere , is the threats  your god clearly makes towards children!



Oh by the way - if cursing your mother and father is not tantamount to threats to kill, what is it? If you suggest it is just swearing at them or calling them names, prove it.

Asks  the man that  has the bad habit of contextualising the ancient with the modern. And believes asking a question of his own is somehow a answer to my initial question.


If you suggest it is just swearing at them or calling them names, prove it.

And I am not sure that I suggested anything at all as to what "cursing" in the bible means. Can you show me I have? No you can't can you?  BUT YOU!  You have told us it means to threaten to kill ones parents and not bothered to offer a single piece of evidence for your claim. 


Don't just bring in your 21st century contextualisation.  

  That's your sly and sneaky habit. 

 But I will give it a shot all the same.  "cursing " in the biblical ( Leviticus 20: 9)   sense has absolutely nothing to do with the threat to killing or the threat to murder of ones parents. No, it has to do with (no surprises)  using the name of god whilst "cursing" one or both parents.   You see it all comes back to your  god and his ego and vanity and how fkn easily he gets upset! 



"yet they enacted that the child only incurred the penalty of death when he used the ineffable name God when cursing his parent".  _ Charles J Ellicott's Bible Commentary Volume  I.

Charles John Ellicott was a distinguished English Christian theologian, academic and churchman. He briefly served as Dean of Exeter, then Bishop of the united see of Gloucester and Bristol, England.

 Ok , now your turn. Where is your evidence that cursing  in the bible as in ( Leviticus 20: 9) means " to threaten the death of the parent"?  As you claim here>>" It is effectively a death threat" #26 ??? 
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen



.
Stephen,

YOUR QUOTE TO THE BIBLICALLY IGNORANT TRADESECRET: " But it does mean "children" all the same doesn't it? No matter how much you attempt to determine it to mean  a "child" of adult  age and make believe that the "offence" actually means to threaten to kill ones parents. So again,  it is something the scriptures doesn't even mention. This is what you have claimed >> " It is effectively a death threat" #26. Yet the only one issuing death threats towards anyone  anywhere , is the threats  your god clearly makes towards children!"

Barring the fact that I made Tradesecret the continued biblical fool that he is upon your statement above in my post #29 above, lest you forget, not only did my serial killing Jesus make commanded death threats towards children, IT IS TRADESECRET THAT SAYS THAT CHILDREN THAT CURSE THEIR PARENTS SHOULD BE MURDERED! 

Tradesecret Quote: “And I would think that if people do curse their parents - unless there is a jolly good reason to do so - then they should be put to death.” 

The above quote is shown 12 paragraphs down in Tradesecrets following link below:


Furthermore, as we can see, Tradesecret is still wearing his YELLOW running shoes so as to not address my posts number 29,30, and 31 in this thread that make him the embarrassing and stupid Bible fool that he is.  Whats new? NOTHING!  He is such an easy target!  LOL



.
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret



.
TRADESECRET, the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed, and now states there is fiction within the scriptures!


As I have mentioned before, I am very busy in spreading the TRUE gospel of Jesus Christ, therefore, I have had to hire a secretary to keep track of all the Jesus inspired posts that I have given you, AND, that you have blatantly RUN AWAY from!  

Therefore I am going to give you one last chance to address the following three posts to you within this thread that easily make you the continued biblical fool that you are.  If you do not address them, then it only proves YOUR DEFEATIST COWARDLY ACTION OF THROWING IN THE TOWEL OF DEFEAT AGAINST YOUR SUPERIOR BROTHER D. THOMAS, PRAISE JESUS!





Tradesecret, remember, this is a discussion forum on religion, it is NOT a RUNAWAY from discussion forum on religion, GET IT?

Still SCARED in front of the membership?  LOL


.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Indeed Brother.  Crickets from the man that oft proudly  brags " I always support my claims with evidence". 
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Stephen
@Tradesecret
@RoderickSpode


Stephen,

YOUR TRUTHFUL QUOTE REGARDING THE #1 BIBLE INEPT FOOL TRADESECRET: "Indeed Brother.  Crickets from the man that oft proudly  brags " I always support my claims with evidence". "

As the true modus operandi of Tradesecret comes to the forefront in what he thought  he knew, but didn't, WE easily Bible Slap him Silly®️ now to the point where he has to remain silent to save himself any further embarrassment!  We've seen this COWARDLY act by Tradesecret before in having to take this ungodly stance because his losses in discussion were mounting to unbearable pressure, therefore, to prevent his further losses, Tradesecret has decided just to remain silent.  Priceless admittance to his complete Bible ignorance!

Tradesecret and RoderickSpode have gotten together to remain silent to our superior biblical knowledge and are now following this Jesus inspired passage: "Even a fool is considered wise when he keeps silent, discerning when he seals his lips." (Proverbs 17:28)  The "fool" part is self-evident, and the "discerning" part is to prevent this Satanic duo from being further embarrassed by the both of us relating to their faith!   


Shhhhhh, keep this under the table, but I have been emailed by a former friend of Tradesecret that is thinking about sending me pertinent information about Tradesecrets new Bible School entitled: "How to Run Away from Disturbing Biblical Axioms and to try and remain Intelligent Looking in the Aftermath." Obviously the equally Bible inept RoderickSpode is taking this class that Tradesecret is offering, so I'll let you know if this individual comes forth with this ungodly schools information.  



.






Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
If you suggest it is just swearing at them or calling them names, prove it.

And I am not sure that I suggested anything at all as to what "cursing" in the bible means. Can you show me I have?   BUT YOU!  You have told us it means to threaten to kill ones parents and not bothered to offer a single piece of evidence for your claim. 


Don't just bring in your 21st century contextualisation.  

  That's your sly and sneaky habit. 

 But I will give it a shot all the same.  "cursing " in the biblical ( Leviticus 20: 9)   sense has absolutely nothing to do with the threat to killing or the threat to murder of ones parents. No, it has to do with (no surprises)  using the name of god whilst "cursing" one or both parents.   You see it all comes back to your  god and his ego and vanity and how fkn easily he gets upset! 



"yet they enacted that the child only incurred the penalty of death when he used the ineffable name God when cursing his parent".  _ Charles J Ellicott's Bible Commentary Volume  I.

Charles John Ellicott was a distinguished English Christian theologian, academic and churchman. He briefly served as Dean of Exeter, then Bishop of the united see of Gloucester and Bristol, England.

 Ok , now your turn. Where is your evidence that cursing  in the bible as in ( Leviticus 20: 9) means " to threaten the death of the parent"?  As you claim here>>" It is effectively a death threat" #26 ??? 


PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Tradesecret
But we are talking biblical aren't we?  We are talking about a god that loves us aren't we? A god that tells us to turn the other cheek and  orders _ "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" _.    Stop trying to contextualise vile actions of an ancient god with the  21st century practices of modern man. Muslims do this persistently to excuse  and justify the vile commands of Muhammad and Allah.
As I said, I don't have to justify anything to you or to anyone in this modern world - because the 21st century is the most vile and murderous evil killers of unborn babies - more so than any in the biblical times. 

For me to justify what God is before you justify yourself is like Hitler asking me to justify why the Americans killed german soldiers.  

The Americans might have done evil - but compared to Hitler, they were saints - and it does not matter how you attempt to spin the bible - none of the deaths in that come close to what the 21st century progressive does to justify the slaughter of unborn babies every year. You simply have no leg to stand on. Until you admit that abortion is evil - and murderous - then I will never feel the need to justify any of the horrors in the bible that you think are there. 
You make a good point!

Here is Stephen criticizing the biblical God about evil when he needs to answer where evil comes from himself if he even thinks there is such a thing?  He does, wise why would he criticize God for what he considered as morally reprehensible? He does yet since he denies God he must feel it comes from somewhere else. Why is he so upset about this God he does not believe in? Does he actually believe that God ordered Israel to kill little children? Or again, is he making a big fuss over nothing? Very inconsistent.

Can he justify his worldview as capable of answering the question of evil or should he first take the plank out of his own eye before criticizing others, lest he be a hypocrite?

Then for your last point - abortion. How can someone think child killing is unjust, then condone abortion??? Inconsistent yet again. 

Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@PGA2.0
Don't expect anytime in the near future for  this question to be answered.  Even though it is the proverbial elephant in the room, the question obviously hits too close to home to be answered and therefore I never expect it to be answered. I do however believe that by not answering the question - he has no right to actually expect others to answer his questions. And this is a very telling and revealing scenario about a particular writer. 
PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Tradesecret
Don't expect anytime in the near future for  this question to be answered.  Even though it is the proverbial elephant in the room, the question obviously hits too close to home to be answered and therefore I never expect it to be answered. I do however believe that by not answering the question - he has no right to actually expect others to answer his questions. And this is a very telling and revealing scenario about a particular writer. 
Neither do I. (^8

When he accuses the biblical God of being evil, identifying that some things are actually evil and makes a big fuss of it, yet has presented no adequate explanation or accounting of evil himself there is an inconsistency there. What is his standard for evil? How does he identify God as evil? Then he denies God on the one hand while acknowledging Him on the other. He posts thread after thread about the inconsistencies of the biblical God as credible at the same time calling Him evil. Very strange. Why is he so upset of what he considers a fiction or is Stephen an actual believer in God, yet in a state of denial? (crisis mode) 
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
Lots of commentators raise various distinctions. I have provided a mix of ancient and modern scholars. All respected by the vast majority of academics throughout the world. 

Curse seems to more than mere words.  As you would understand the OT blessing and curse systems. It would appear that curse was within the same ilk.  Yes, there seems to be a link to the third commandment, but also to the 5th and the 6th commandments.   Jesus in the NT indicated in the sermon on the mount that calling someone a name was akin to murdering them - as he did with striking. Cursing someone however is more than just calling them a name. When GOD curses - it is a removal of his blessing. Hence the term "light" comes into play. He removes his hand from them allowing the system to complete its ordinary deterministic cause and effect in respect of them. I would suggest you get hold of Gordon J Wenham - and his Leviticus commentary, probably the foremost authority on OT Hebrew in the academic world presently. His comments are quite helpful here. Gordon persuasively demonstrates that the legal system of OT used a maximum penalty system - quite like ours actually. And that very often - the maximum penalty was never carried out - the more minimum sentences doing the work that they were required to do to reform persons. Interestingly, Blackstones Legal Commentaries - used extensively even now in the legal world - at least those who use common law systems - attempt to persuade us of the same. 

What both note is that cursing your parents - is an offence deserving a maximum death penalty - not that every offender received it - it is however worthy of a strike - which again Jesus reminds us - is akin to murder or from the state's point of view - the death penalty.  So interestingly enough, I have learned something from this discussion. That just as we talk about Jesus saying that striking or cursing is akin to killing someone else - there is also the reverse part of this as well.  And that is that a strike of a parent onto their child is an equivalent picture of the death penalty. Not that death occurs - but it is symbolised in it. Quite fascinating really. It is something I had directly considered prior to our discussion .So thanks Stephen. 


2. Children’s abusing their parents, by cursing them, v. 9. If children should speak ill of their parents, or wish ill to them, or carry it scornfully or spitefully towards them, it was an iniquity to be punished by the judges, who were employed as conservators both of God’s honour and of the public peace, which were both attacked by this unnatural insolence. See Prov. 30:17, The eye that mocks at his father the ravens of the valley shall pick out, which intimates that such wicked children were in a fair way to be not only hanged, but hanged in chains. This law of Moses Christ quotes and confirms (Mt. 15:4), for it is as direct a breach of the fifth commandment as wilful murder is of the sixth. The same law which requires parents to be tender of their children requires children to be respectful to their parents. He that despitefully uses his parents, the instruments of his being, flies in the face of God himself, the author of his being, who will not see the paternal dignity and authority insulted and trampled upon.

Henry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 175). Peabody: Hendrickson.

9 ¶ For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; phis blood shall be upon him.
For, or, surely, as that particle, chi, is oft used, as Job 8:6; 20:20. So there needs no dispute about the connexion, or what this is a reason of. Curseth; which is not meant of every perverse expression, but of bitter reproaches or imprecations. Or his mother; Heb. and put for or, as hath been noted before. His blood shall be upon him; he is guilty of his own death; he deserves to die for so unnatural a crime.

Poole, M. (1853). Annotations upon the Holy Bible (Vol. 1, p. 241). New York: Robert Carter and Brothers.

Still harder will it be for most of us to understand why the death-penalty should have been also affixed to cursing or smiting a father or a mother, an extreme form of rebellion against parental authority.

Kellogg, S. H. (1903). The Book of Leviticus. In W. Robertson Nicoll (Ed.), The Expositor’s Bible: Genesis to Ruth (Vol. 1, p. 344). Hartford, CT: S.S. Scranton Co.

The commandment is now sanctioned by the denunciation of capital punishment for its violation, yet not so as to comprehend all who have in any respect sinned against their parents, but sufficient to shew that the rights of parents are sacred, and not to be violated without the greatest criminality. We know that parricides, as being the most detestable of all men, were formerly sewn up in a leathern sack and cast into the water; but God proceeds further, when He commands all those to be exterminated who have laid violent hands on their parents,2 or addressed them in abusive language. For to smite does not only mean to kill, but refers to any violence, although no wound may have been inflicted. If, then, any one had struck his father or mother with his fist, or with a stick, the punishment of such an act of madness was the same as for murder. And, assuredly, it is an abominable and monstrous thing for a son not to hesitate to assault those from whom he has received his life; nor can it be but that impunity accorded to so foul a crime must straightway produce cruel barbarism. The second law avenges not only violence done to parents, but also abusive words, which soon proceed to grosser insults and atrocious contempt. Still, if any one should have lightly let drop some slight reproach, as is often the case in a quarrel, this severe punishment was not to be inflicted upon such an inconsiderate piece of impertinence: and the word קלל, kalal, from which the participle used by Moses is derived, not only means to reproach, but also to curse, as well as to esteem lightly, and to despise. Whilst, therefore, not every insult, whereby the reverence due to parents was violated, received the punishment of death, still God would have that impious pride, which would subvert the first principles of nature, held in abhorrence. But, inasmuch as it might seem hard that a word, however unworthy of a dutiful son, should be the cause of death; this objection is met, by what is added by God in Leviticus, “his blood shall be upon him, because he hath cursed his father or mother:” as if He would put a stop to what men might otherwise presume to allege in mitigation of the severity of the punishment.

Calvin, J., & Bingham, C. W. (2010). Commentaries on the Four Last Books of Moses Arranged in the Form of a Harmony (Vol. 3, pp. 13–14). Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software.

Other sins that required capital punishment were blaspheming God’s name, cursing one’s parents, murder and worshipping another god. Respect for parents was the Fifth Commandment. A sentence of death hung over those who cursed their father or mother (Lev. 19:3, 32; 20:9).
Leviticus 19:32 shows mother and father is a metonymy for the elderly. The verb for cursing (√qll) means to make light of. To make light of, i.e. to curse, appears in Leviticus 19:14 in regards to insensitivity to the deaf and, in 24:1, regarding the son of an Israelite woman who cursed the name of God.
The clause signifies blatant disrespect for someone who is due respect. The act of putting obstinate children to death is not a sentence that must make one feel guilty. The phrase added to the death sentence for the blatantly disrespectful his blood will be on his head (Lev. 20:9) demonstrates that the responsibility rests solely upon the guilty and not the prosecution.

Vasholz, R. I. (2007). Leviticus: A Mentor Commentary (pp. 320–321). Fearn, Tain, Ross-shire, Great Britain: Mentor.

To curse one's parent's is not merely to use condescending vocabulary towards them but refers to a serious breach of filial duty. The verb means to make light of something. in the sense of dishonoring and disrespecting .  

Currid, D. John (2004) Leviticus: An EP Study Commentary pp 269-70


Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret


Lots of commentators raise various distinctions.

You are not lots of commentators. You have made a distinct claim that "cursing " in the biblical ( Leviticus 20: 9) sense means a threat to kill ones parents. 


I have provided a mix of ancient and modern scholars.

And I needed only one one to show you to be talking shite.


Curse seems to more than mere words. 

It is according to only you. And to only you it means "a threat to kill ones parents". Where is your evidence!? 



Blackstones Legal Commentaries...............Poole, M. (1853). Annotations upon the Holy Bible (Vol. 1, p. 241). New York: Robert Carter and Brothers.......................Henry, M. (1994). Matthew Henry’s commentary on the whole Bible: complete and unabridged in one volume (p. 175). Peabody: Hendrickson. etc etc etc etc etc etc


 The rest of your absolute pointless comments focuses on the punishment for "cursing ones parents",   which we already know because the bible makes it clear, perfectly clear in fact that the punishment is death. None of the comments or quotes above address your own claim.

What your absolute pointless comments don't focus on is your claim that to "curse ones parents" in the  biblical sense "means a threat to kill ones parents", as you claimed. So I am going to take it that even after all of your pointless efforts of of searching out comments that state that which we already know, you have nothing at all to support your OWN ridiculous claim.
 
 You simply have said this to make the punishment fit the ' crime'  . and lets not forget, you are the one that has said, -  " What I do think is that when God kills infants it is justified" #14..       My god, how vile.  And you still haven't offered one single incident of  god  "justifiably  killing infants  or explained these actions that you  believe justifies god to commit infanticide?




So thanks Stephen. 
What a patronising nonentity you are. 





PGA2.0
PGA2.0's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,179
3
5
8
PGA2.0's avatar
PGA2.0
3
5
8
-->
@Stephen
@Tradesecret


Don't just bring in your 21st century contextualisation.  

  That's your sly and sneaky habit. 

 But I will give it a shot all the same.  "cursing " in the biblical ( Leviticus 20: 9)   sense has absolutely nothing to do with the threat to killing or the threat to murder of ones parents. No, it has to do with (no surprises)  using the name of god whilst "cursing" one or both parents.   You see it all comes back to your  god and his ego and vanity and how fkn easily he gets upset! 



"yet they enacted that the child only incurred the penalty of death when he used the ineffable name God when cursing his parent".  _ Charles J Ellicott's Bible Commentary Volume  I.

Charles John Ellicott was a distinguished English Christian theologian, academic and churchman. He briefly served as Dean of Exeter, then Bishop of the united see of Gloucester and Bristol, England.

 Ok , now your turn. Where is your evidence that cursing  in the bible as in ( Leviticus 20: 9) means " to threaten the death of the parent"?  As you claim here>>" It is effectively a death threat" #26 ???
Deuteronomy 28:1-2
“Now it shall be, if you diligently obey the Lord your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and overtake you if you obey the Lord your God:

God explains that if Israel follows His commandments He will bless them, but if not He will take away His hand of protection and if they did not repent eventually allow them to experience all the curses. All His commands would include the Ten Commandments as well as the 613 Mosaic Commandments which reflected on the Ten Commandments. 

Exodus 24:3-4, 7 (NASB)
3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!” 4 Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel...7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!”

Blessings were stipulated in Deuteronomy 28 in the law of blessings and curses. Blessings followed closely and included the Ten Commandments, one of which was for children to honour and respect their parents. The Ten Commandments were instated to emphasize the holiness. righteousness, and purity of God. God wanted Israel directly, and us, indirectly to realize the harm of sin. The Commandments were a teacher for Israel and us in what it means to be holy and righteous in God's sight, because God is holy. In the covenant Israel made with God they AGREE to follow it that He would be their God and they would be His people.

If Israel did not obey then curses would follow, eventually culminating in total judgment. That is what happened. Israel refused to abandon their foreign gods. God sent teachers and prophets to them, warning them of coming judgment IF they did not repent and turn back to Him. 

So, reflecting on the Ten Commandments:

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

So, if a child was disobedient and cursed their parents they were no being faithful to the covenant. They deserved death. According to the law, they deserved death. But God is merciful. We all sin (exception - Jesus Christ). We are given the opportunity to repent. That is what the OT atonement system was all about - an offering that covered sin. It pictured a greater truth found in Jesus Christ. Having said that, if the child was not willing to repent it showed his/her rebellion or rebellious nature and he/she was deserving of death for not honouring those who brought him/her into the world and cared for him/her. If they could not honour their earthly parents how were they showing respect for God? 

For thus the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has said, “In repentance and rest you will be saved, In quietness and trust is your strength.” But you were not willing,

Psalm 7:11-13 (NASB)
11 God is a righteous judge,
And a God who has indignation every day.
12 If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword;
He has bent His bow and made it ready.
13 He has also prepared for Himself deadly weapons;
He makes His arrows fiery shafts.

Again, what this teaches is that judgment is conditional on whether or not there is repentance. IF. If not, judgment. 

Jeremiah 3:10-12 (NASB)
10 Yet in spite of all this her treacherous sister Judah did not return to Me with all her heart, but rather in deception,” declares the Lord.
God Invites Repentance
11 And the Lord said to me, “Faithless Israel has proved herself more righteous than treacherous Judah. 12 Go and proclaim these words toward the north and say,
Return, faithless Israel,’ declares the Lord;
I will not look upon you in anger.
For I am gracious,’ declares the Lord;
‘I will not be angry forever.

Perhaps they will listen and everyone will turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the calamity which I am planning to do to them because of the evil of their deeds.’

“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.

So, what does all this mean?

God is merciful but He takes sin seriously as a righteous judge. He will show compassion to those who repent. Stephen is guilty of selective reading. He is not open to the teaching. He centers out the passages that show the negative consequences of sin but none of the remedies or provisions for those who had/have a change of heart.  


Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherDThomas
Tradesecret:  that says kids that curse their parents should be killed!

"'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. "Leviticus 20:9

 “I think firstly this is talking about adult children. Not infants.” 

Are you calling Jesus a LIAR once again in His following direct words relating to Leviticus 20:9?!    Jesus replied,  “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.  (Matthew 15: 3-4)
No Jesus is not a liar.  He was talking to adults and using that verse.   That is the intent of the verse and it was a verse which was used to demonstrate the high value of marriage and honoring parents in the OT and kingdom dynamic. I answered numerous times.  Yet you just go to "anyone".  Now I freely concede I helped you out here. Freely because I have some intellectual honesty.  I agreed that anyone could certainly suggest anyone including infants.  But while I conceded that it could appear that way - I never agreed in any instance that it actually meant that.  And I still don't. In fact I asked you to find any instance in the Bible where such a situation might have occurred involving infants and you just completely ignored it.  Of course everyone else reading it - well apart from Stephen - saw the duck and weave that you did.  

In any event, the OT laws considered those under the age of 20 exempt from capital punishment.  This is the reason why only Joshua and Caleb as adults got to go into the promised land and every adult did not.  IT is not an age of accountability - but it recognizes that there is a different criminality attached to adults as to children.  


Now, tell us, what part of the word "anyone" that Jesus used in the passage above don’t you understand?  The word "anyone" can include infants, toddlers, preschoolers, school-age, high schoolers AND ADULTS, therefore in an absolute sense, Jesus was not only talking about adults like you insidiously stated but infants as well!
It was not the intent of the statute - and if it was - then the words "put to death" are to be seen as a maximum penalty not as the ordinary penalty.  It is clear that the way the phrase is put that it is talking covenantly.  "Dying they shall be put to death" A clear Hebrew Idiom that is seen right back in the Garden of Eden.  If you can use a modern day dictionary, then I can also relate our maximum penalties to the same.  In fact Blackstone the great lawyer in his famous commentaries - argues that our maximum penalties arise from the Jewish OT and not the Roman Law.  http://files.libertyfund.org/files/2140/Blackstone_1387-01_EBk_v6.0.pdf




Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherDThomas
 "In our modern world we justify the murder of millions of unborn babies on the basis that it is inconvenient to some."


Jesus as our serial killer Yahweh/God incarnate controls everything, remember? Since Jesus controls LIFE (Job 12:10), and he knows EVERYTHING (1 John 3:20), then Jesus knows when he is going to spontaneously abort innocent zygotes and fetus’ from the wombs of billions of women!  Therefore, one can only wonder in how many of these innocent MURDERS Jesus has done in the past and will do in the future! Jesus, not chance, decides what happens in human affairs; “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”(Proverbs 16:33) 

“Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29). “Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29). In the same vein as Jesus “willing” the fall of a sparrow, he also “wills” the ABORTION of innocent zygotes and fetus’!

Barring Jesus' Great Flood where he aborted hundreds of thousands of innocent zygotes and fetus' within the mothers womb, Jesus as God, is held culpable for ALL, I repeat ALL spontaneous abortions upon planet earth, period, and you have the audacity to state that millions of unborn babies are aborted on the basis that it is inconvenient to some!  
It is a strange thing is it not? I say - Modern Man justifies millions of murders because it is inconvenient.  Yet, the Brother rather than addressing this monstrous issue - simply rolls his eyes - thinks nothing about the fact that millions of babies are murdered and then lo and behold attempts to pin it all back on a god he does not even believe in. The audacity is amazing. In fact the irony here is that Brother actually thinks it is justified to kill millions of babies every year.  Yet - inconsistently looks at God in the bible and thinks it is cruel when it is truly justified to kill all of humanity. 

But look at his argument. This is just nuts.  Somehow it is God's fault that people who hate God murder their babies because God controls life, knows everything, and decides what happens in human affairs.  Just nuts.  He forgets conveniently that this simply gives everyone a license to go out and do whatever they like - just blame it on God. Imagine if we tried this in the court room. Sorry your honor - not guilty for buggering these young children - not my fault.  It is God because he controls life, knows everything and decides what happens in human affairs. It had nothing to do with me.  The courts would simply throw him into prison.  

The Brother's argument denies human responsibility. This is not what the Bible teaches.  It teaches that each person is responsible for their own actions. Yes it teaches that God controls life, knows everything, and decides what happens in human affairs.  But the Bible NEVER sees these things as contradictory even if people like Brother do.  And if the Bible is going to say that God controls all things and also that humanity is responsible for their own actions - why would someone think that only half of this is true. It is either the case that both are true or that neither is true.  It cannot be that one is right and one is wrong.  

Of course God knows every sparrow that falls.  Of course God judged the world in Noah's day killing everyone.  But this does not diminish the responsibility that anyone has for their own actions.  It doesn't. The world we live in does not think that - the legal world does not think that - the bible does not think that - there are just a few people who do think that - and they all have a grudge against God. They all want their cake and to eat it as well.  Fools. 







Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@BrotherDThomas
"is that the death sentence in Israel was never carried out simply by people who think they have been wronged. It was not vigilante justice - it was court convened and proper legal justice - with judges." 

Tell us, did the one biblical narrative of MANY relative to your topic shown below have a court convened where proper legal justice was given? NOT! 

"If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then hates her and accuses her of misconduct and brings a bad name upon her, saying, ‘I took this woman, and when I came near her, I did not find in her evidence of virginity,’  then the father of the young woman and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate. And the father of the young woman shall say to the elders, ‘I gave my daughter to this man to marry, and he hates her;  and behold, he has accused her of misconduct, saying, “I did not find in your daughter evidence of virginity.” And yet the and they shall fine him a hundred shekels3 of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought a bad name upon a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife. aHe may not divorce her all his days.  But if the thing is true, that evidence of virginity was not found in the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done an outrageous thing in Israel by whoring in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
Let me take a quote from the quote above. I have also underlined it for you as well - since you seem to be hard of reading. "bring out the evidence of her virginity to the elders of the city in the gate."  This is exactly what I am saying.  A court was convened with evidence necessary. The elders were the judges in that time.  



“If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman. So you shall purge the evil from Israel.
 “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her,  then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife. dSo you shall purge the evil from your midst.
 
Again - do you notice where they were brought - to the gate of the city.  The judges or the elders sat at the gate of the city. Go and read something about the culture. You really show you are a simpleton. 

“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no offense punishable by death. For this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor,  because he met her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her. (Deuteronomy 22: 13-27)
This is a statute not an example.  It is like our statutes which provide what the law is.  It is not providing to us an example of something that is actually happening. Duh! Go back to school.