what should we make of the passover and God killing his people's first born kids?

Author: n8nrgmi

Posts

Total: 48
Topic's author
#1
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3

God said that all the first borns in Egypt would die, including the israelites, unless they sacrificed a lamb and smeared the blood on their door frame. 

what was the purpose of this? is it cool for God to kill in such a random way because of inherited sin? or what is the basis for God's decision? why would God even orchestrate this system? was this a literal story that happened? what is the skeptic and atheist view of all this? 

#2
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@n8nrgmi
While I'm not claiming to speak for other atheists or skeptics the obvious answer is that anyone who does not believe in any god(s) must therefore take any story featuring a god as a central figure to be fictional. If you want my opinion of it as fiction I think it is a fun story full of intrigue and magic but I don't necessarily view the Yahweh as free of guilt in the whole affair. After all he was so keen to kill all the babies (excepting those who engaged in ritual animal sacrifice and blood magic) that he hardened Pharoah's heart so he would not release moses' people before he got the chance to.

#3
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@n8nrgmi
What kind of answer are you looking for? If you start with a theistic bent, conferring to the biblical text a divine authority, then you can connect the decision to Ex 4:22 -- that the Egyptians killed all the Jewish boys and that Israel, the object of the Egyptians murderousness, is considered a "first born."

If you want to look at it sociologically and talk about first borns representing future and foundational thinking, that is one way to consider it.

If you are not a theist and see the text as, at best, mythologizing child slaughter then I'm not the one to answer you.
#4
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@rosends
If you want to look at it sociologically and talk about first borns representing future and foundational thinking, that is one way to consider it.
That is interesting. Like if the scholars compiling the Torah/Old Testament were hebrews living as second class citizens in Babylonia and identified strongly with the oral tradition of the moses narrative because they yearned for freedom for example?
#5
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@secularmerlin
Yes -- if we see this as archtypical, then the "blows against the empire" provide hope and a promise based on a supposed past.
#6
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@rosends
The hope of deliverance. Do you think the story had specialeaning to converted Christians laboring under Europeans during the colonial era? That perhaps they hoped and yearned for deliverance?
#7
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
God said that all the first borns in Egypt would die, including the israelites, unless they sacrificed a lamb and smeared the blood on their door frame. 
That can be used as an example for the word "Bullshit" in the average dictionary. It is as random as saying, if you want your car repaired, rip out of the table of contents in any book, put it on top of your house, set it on fire, and watch Charlie & the Chocolate factory-----then, the car is repaired.

#8
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Intelligence_06
if you want your car repaired, rip out of the table of contents in any book, put it on top of your house, set it on fire, and watch Charlie & the Chocolate factory-----then, the car is repaired.
That would be awesome. Now I want that to happen to me.
#9
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@secularmerlin
You know the meme that someone presents something ridiculous and says "so true", and the opposite viewpoint says "I wish".
#10
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Intelligence_06
You know the meme that someone presents something ridiculous and says "so true", and the opposite viewpoint says "I wish".
Well, mechanics are expensive and I am not skilled in car repair. A paperback, matches and redbox? That is an acceptable loss.
#11
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@n8nrgmi
what should we make of the passover and God killing his people's first born kids?

It was a violent act of  willfully intended murder. If the story is true at all.


God said that all the first borns in Egypt would die, including the israelites, unless they sacrificed a lamb and smeared the blood on their door frame. 

what was the purpose of this?

Some kind of ritual of immunity from the vile plague sent by god to murder all 1st born. The bible makes that clear too.


is it cool for God to kill in such a random way because of inherited sin?

Well this particular instance the bible is clear, god killed because Pharaohs "heart was hardened and " inherited sin" wasn't even mentioned. This is complicated by the fact that the bible also makes clear that it was god that caused Pharaohs heart to be hardened in the first place, who knows what would have happened had god not intervened at this crucial point? . So it appears that Pharaoh didn't have a choice. It was all caused by god and his willingness to just kill when there maybe wasn't a need to kill anyone, at all , particularly children.  It looks like god wanted to justify his own murderous conscience by giving himself a reason to kill children and do away with the next generation of Egyptians.



"And >>>>>> I <<<<<< will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh"..... Exodus 14:4.



Now one of a few things is going to happen here: we will be told that   ' I have taken the whole story completely  out of context ' and or  it will be argued that Pharaoh had a choice &  free will,  although neither of these weak &  feeble explanations and attempts to justify the unjustifiable  are simply not true. The bible also makes that clear too. 






#12
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
That is the problem I have with the bible. Too many things are there without basic proof. One of the examples is this. The logic in the bible is like this.

  • Vote for Biden!
  • But why?
  • Just vote him and you will get prize money.


Topic's author
#13
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@Tradesecret

what are your views on this?

also why do you go to lengths to deny whether God really does kill infants in some instances, when there are so many other examples of God doing just that that aren't debateable? 
#14
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@n8nrgmi
God said that all the first borns in Egypt would die, including the israelites, unless they sacrificed a lamb and smeared the blood on their door frame. 
Isn't the purpose clear?  It is asking the people of Egypt and the people of Israel a question of loyalty.  Many in the nation of Israel wanted to be out of slavery and others were not sure. God was going to release his people who wanted to be freed - and he was making it very clear - a line in the sand. As such it was not a random killing despite your suggestion.  Inherited sin is a realistic thing. You might think it is nothing - but it an important consideration - especially when the inherited sin is treason - and loyalty. 

People in the West today are thrown into prison when they are disloyal to the state. In fact this is what it is like all around the world. The fact was back in those days and really up until very recent in human history - everywhere in every state - the death penalty was the only remedy for treason - although sometimes the interpretation of the death penalty equaled exile or life in prison or transportation.  And it a fact that when people were disloyal to the crown - that not only were the individuals killed but all of their family and friends. Again - this was not unusual. In fact in China it still happens - and Russia and North Korea.  The bible is not the product of 21st Century morals - thank God.  It is the product of the times it was written in. God is eternal and his moral principles are timeless. What we think is moral in the 21st century will not be constant for the rest of eternity.  I for instance agree with the death penalty and I am a criminal lawyer.  Yet, I don't think as a society we are mature enough or evolved enough to deal with it properly. 

what was the purpose of this? is it cool for God to kill in such a random way because of inherited sin? or what is the basis for God's decision? why would God even orchestrate this system? was this a literal story that happened? what is the skeptic and atheist view of all this? 
I don't care what the atheistic skeptic position  is. 



also why do you go to lengths to deny whether God really does kill infants in some instances, when there are so many other examples of God doing just that that aren't debateable? 
Actually I don't go to any particular lengths at all. What I do think is that when God kills infants it is justified -  and that it is never random.  There are places where God clearly indicates to his people to kill infants - but also there are other places where infants are killed that God is not pleased with. Think of the slaughter of Jewish babies in the time of Moses birth and then later on in the time of Jesus' birth. 

I think that all things are debatable - especially if it is going to be used as a means of destroying God's character.   
#15
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
I made reference to this point in a recent debate.


COUNTER 2.2
HUMANITY

  • In R1, PRO suggested the absence of infanticide is one hallmark of human dignity.
    • In COUNTER 1.2, CON argued that infanticide is present in every culture and challenged PRO to name a culture without infanticide
      • PRO failed to name one culture
      • In R2, PRO argues that infanticide in unBiblical
          • "Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones"
        • 1 SAMUEL 15 YHWH orders Saul to kill infants and breastfeeding babies, which Saul does [5]
          • "Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

        • EXODUS 12 YHWH personally murders many infant first-borns on a national scale simultaneously [6]
          • And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.  And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
          • And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
          • And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
          • And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
          • And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
          • And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
        • NUMBERS 31 MOSES orders mass infanticide against an enemy people [8]
          • And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian.
          • And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
          • And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
          • And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
          • And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
          • And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
          • And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle
          • And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
          • Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
          • Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
          • But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
        • GENESIS 7  YHWH genocides humanity, including at least hundreds of thousands of infants [9]
  • CON won't claim to know much about the Bible, but CON is pretty sure that Moses, YHWH, Saul, Abraham- those are the good guys doing all that baby killing, right?
    • Infanticide is quite biblical or at least the Bible is quite infanticidey

#16
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
People in the West today are thrown into prison when they are disloyal to the state.

Just so we are  clear define "state" .


 What I do think is that when God kills infants it is justified -  and that it is never random. 

Could you give us a few examples of  "god justifiably"  killing infants  and explain these actions that you  believe justifies god to commit infanticide?
#17
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,067
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Stephen
The biblical mythologies justify everything for some people.

Advanced species hey?

We haven't really left the cave.
#18
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@zedvictor4
The biblical mythologies justify everything for some people.

Advanced species hey?

We haven't really left the cave.

Whatever do you mean by such a broad and generalised statement? 

In our modern world we justify the murder of millions of unborn babies on the basis that it is inconvenient to some.  
#19
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@zedvictor4

We haven't really left the cave.

Not while  we have people such as Tradesecret holding extremist beliefs such as : 


Tradesecret wrote : "What I do think is that when God kills infants it is justified" #14


He hasn't explained  if he would do as they did in ancient times and kill infants on gods commands.  I would expect him to swerve such a question as this would challenge his faith and his beliefs as it did so here in my little spat with another member who believes god is justified in committing infanticide.#133




This ended up with him challenging me first  to prove "evil exists" as if this somehow answered  my simple question:  and then  saying words to the effect that -  "I  haven't been in that position , so I wouldn't know what I would do'  - although he believes in the bible and has a faith in a god, a god   which makes it perfectly clear and  plain a day what he should  do if his daughter "cursed him". 

"'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. ."Leviticus 20:9

He seemed completely oblivious to the fact that he was being challenged on what he fkn believes in and the scriptures he holds faith in , and that it  had nothing to do with what I believe .



Side note: 
The bible makes it clear that evil exists.   Isn't this why Christians ask the lord to "deliver us from evil".  If it doesn't exist then there is no need of  god /  Jesus because  there isn't any evil to deliver us from, is there?  

And incidentally, the word evil appears in the entire Bible 613 times in 569 verses in 343 chapters in 60 books. The word evildoer appears 2 times and evildoers appears 12 times in the KJV Bible. 






#20
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
The biblical mythologies justify everything for some people.

Advanced species hey?

We haven't really left the cave.

Whatever do you mean by such a broad and generalised statement? 

In our modern world we justify the murder of millions of unborn babies on the basis that it is inconvenient to some.  

 But we are talking biblical aren't we?  We are talking about a god that loves us aren't we? A god that tells us to turn the other cheek and  orders _ "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" _.    Stop trying to contextualise vile actions of an ancient god with the  21st century practices of modern man. Muslims do this persistently to excuse  and justify the vile commands of Muhammad and Allah.

#21
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
The biblical mythologies justify everything for some people.

Advanced species hey?

We haven't really left the cave.

Whatever do you mean by such a broad and generalised statement? 

In our modern world we justify the murder of millions of unborn babies on the basis that it is inconvenient to some.  

 But we are talking biblical aren't we?  We are talking about a god that loves us aren't we? A god that tells us to turn the other cheek and  orders _ "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" _.    Stop trying to contextualise vile actions of an ancient god with the  21st century practices of modern man. Muslims do this persistently to excuse  and justify the vile commands of Muhammad and Allah.
No you are.  I am saying that the modern mind has no justifiable or moral right to condemn anyone from any other age when it justifies the murder of millions unborn babies  on the basis that it is an inconvenience.  While the modern person can justify such a vile crime every year, it simply does not have any moral stands about any other culture or age. 

As for what the muslims do, I can hardly care because it is the so called modern and progressive morality of today - of those that you agree with that are vile and evil.  And as such it means you are hardly fit to stand there and judge anything else.  You are the proverbial person who sits there and attempts to pull out the splinter of someone else - while the whole time you have this great big log in your eye. It is you who has to justify why anyone should care what you say about morality - when our modern society leaves everyone else for dead when it comes to justifying evil. 
#22
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2


In our modern world we justify the murder of millions of unborn babies on the basis that it is inconvenient to some.  

 But we are talking biblical aren't we? 

No you are.  

Go to post #1 And stop being silly. THIS IS BIBLICAL>>>>>>> What should we make of the passover and God killing his people's first born kids?
Author:n8nrgmi,1 day ago.

As for what the muslims do, I can hardly care because ......

What Muslims do is exactly the same as you do when it comes to the defence of  your god AND HIS UNJUSTIFDE infanticide You simply commit to defending the indefensible at all costs and go all out to excuse the barbarity of his murderous actions against defenseless infants.

AND THIS IS BILICAL>>>>  we are talking biblical aren't we?  We are talking about a god that loves us aren't we? A god that tells us to turn the other cheek and  orders _ "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" _.  

And you have missed this AGAIN! :

 What I do think is that when God kills infants it is justified -  and that it is never random. 

Could you give us a few examples of  "god justifiably"  killing infants  and explain these actions that you  believe justifies god to commit infanticide?

 Would you kill your daughter or son if they "cursed " you, as the bible instructs and your god commands? 


#23
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
The biblical mythologies justify everything for some people.

Advanced species hey?

We haven't really left the cave.

Whatever do you mean by such a broad and generalised statement? 

In our modern world we justify the murder of millions of unborn babies on the basis that it is inconvenient to some.  

 But we are talking biblical aren't we?  We are talking about a god that loves us aren't we? A god that tells us to turn the other cheek and  orders _ "Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" _.    Stop trying to contextualise vile actions of an ancient god with the  21st century practices of modern man. Muslims do this persistently to excuse  and justify the vile commands of Muhammad and Allah.
As I said, I don't have to justify anything to you or to anyone in this modern world - because the 21st century is the most vile and murderous evil killers of unborn babies - more so than any in the biblical times. 

For me to justify what God is before you justify yourself is like Hitler asking me to justify why the Americans killed german soldiers.  

The Americans might have done evil - but compared to Hitler, they were saints - and it does not matter how you attempt to spin the bible - none of the deaths in that come close to what the 21st century progressive does to justify the slaughter of unborn babies every year. You simply have no leg to stand on. Until you admit that abortion is evil - and murderous - then I will never feel the need to justify any of the horrors in the bible that you think are there. 
#24
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret

I don't have to justify anything to you or to anyone

Well that is simply because you can't justify anything concerning your -  scriptures, your faith or your god.

But you must be confused as to what I have asked SO, , because you have said this last paragraph here  #14:  >"  I do think is that when God kills infants it is justified ....".< 

I have simply asked you for examples of god justifiably killing infants and  to explain why  your examples   show that  god is justified  to commit infanticide?

I didn't ask you to justify his infanticidal actions.


And you have missed this AGAIN!

 Would you kill your daughter or son if they "cursed " you, as the bible instructs and your god commands? 

"'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. ."Leviticus 20:9


#25
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@secularmerlin
I don't know if other enslaved/oppressed peoples would necessarily need the encouragement of child killing, but the exodus story would certainly make for reassuring thinking in general.
#26
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen


 Would you kill your daughter or son if they "cursed " you, as the bible instructs and your god commands? 

"'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. ."Leviticus 20:9

I think firstly this is talking about adult children. Not infants. Jesus clarifies this because he is directly talking to the Pharisees who are adults and he accuses them of dishonoring parents and refers to this verse. And there are no specific examples of anyone in the OT nation of Israel where infants were put to death for dishonoring their parents. 

I reject that the verse is talking about anything apart from ADULT Children.  

Secondly, the intent of the statute in Leviticus is to protect the family unit.  Cursing their mother is not swearing at them or calling them names. It is more or less attempting to practice a form of spiritual evil against them - pointing the bone as such - with the intent that their parents are to die.  It is effectively a death threat.  Even in our culture - we have maximum penalties for people found guilty of threating to kill.  Here it is even more significant because the threat is against the family unit. The penalty or sanction as I have said in other places signifies how serious the offence is.  The heavier the penalty the more serious the offence. In any event - even in that culture - where an eye for an eye was common - meaning by the way - that the penalty should always equal the offence - a death threat and death amount to the same. Even as it does in our legal systems. 

If my children - as adults threatened to kill my wife - or cursed her in that sense - would amount to domestic abuse. In our culture - that is almost anathema these days - and it would hardly be up to me to make any decision - the police would become involved and they would insist upon the maximum penalty - whether they got it or not is a different matter.  And me - if my adult children threatened to kill me or my wife -  I would insist that the law be carried out.  I would also ask for mercy for them - but then again it would depend upon how serious their offence was against me or my wife. 






#27
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Stephen
The other thing is which you always conveniently leave out - is that the death sentence in Israel was never carried out simply by people who think they have been wronged. The law required a court hearing.  And then after the hearing the sentence if required was carried out - perhaps by the family. But nevertheless by proper authority. 

It was not vigilante justice - it was court convened and proper legal justice - with judges. 
#28
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Tradesecret
 Would you kill your daughter or son if they "cursed " you, as the bible instructs and your god commands? 

"'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. ."Leviticus 20:9

I think firstly this is talking about adult children. Not infants.

 You don't know that but still, it is a command from the Old Testament god all the same.  Or is this yet another attempt to create an argument around something the bible doesn't actually say?



I reject that the verse is talking about anything apart from ADULT Children.  

 Of course you do, because it shows your god in a extremely bad light  but the bible makes it clear stating "anyone", and it odd that while you "reject" what the verse says  you write the words  "Adult   children".  I asked you would you do as your lord commands you to do to your "adult children" should they "curse" you?

Secondly, the intent of the statute in Leviticus is to protect the family unit. 
And your evidence for that is what? 


 Even in our culture - we have maximum penalties for people found guilty of threating to kill. 

There you go again, trying to somehow justify this barbaric command by contextualising it with the 21st century. That said  we do have penalties for threats to kill , indeed just days ago a man was sentenced to 7 years for threatening to kill a family and firing shots into the air here in Manchester England.  But  do they command death because your "adult children"  called you a shite and hopes you die?


If my children - as adults threatened to kill my wife - or cursed her in that sense - would amount to domestic abuse. In our culture - that is almost anathema these days - and it would hardly be up to me to make any decision.

But your god commands that you do and more than likely without hesitation. 

 - the police would become involved and they would insist upon the maximum penalty - whether they got it or not is a different matter. 


 Stop talking bollocks! Besides, they would only become involved if you decided that the police should be involved regardless of gods command on the issue. But again, you are attempting to contextualise the commands of your god with policing in the 21st century. This is nothing more than convoluted filibustering that has nothing to do with your scriptures or the commands of your god.


And me - if my adult children threatened to kill me or my wife -  I would insist that the law be carried out.

Gods law?
And I must admire how you have turned cursing to threats of murder and carried on regardless of what the verse actually states by building your argument around something the bible doesn't actually make clear. 


It is more or less attempting to practice a form of spiritual evil against them - pointing the bone as such - with the intent that their parents are to die.  It is effectively a death threat.  
Yes, like I have already noticed and mentioned,   you have built your argument around what the bible doesn't say  again, haven't you. As if this will somehow justify your gods barbaric command towards children,  adult or otherwise.



  I would also ask for mercy for them -


 But the ruling is clear is it not.



But then again it would depend upon how serious their offence was against me or my wife. 

Well we know the "offence " don't we?    Its all to do with "cursing parents".  You just keep trying to turn it all into a more serious "offence" about  threats to murder parents.  And we know why you do this too, don't we. You have to somehow worsen the actual "offence" to justify the penalty. 


The other thing is which you always conveniently leave out [..................................] The law required a court hearing. 

Yes and?  What did I leave out of that very clear biblical  command from god?.  so they had a court hearing if it is found that the child had "cursed" the parents, then the penalty is death.

Here ya go:  Leviticus 20: 9 “‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head".  




 And then after the hearing the sentence if required was carried out - perhaps by the family. But nevertheless by proper authority. 

  For cursing the parents. Yes I know. barbaric isn't it?




it was court convened and proper legal justice - with judges. 
Yes and  sticklers for the Mosaic /Judaic law. I KNOW!



Tradesecret wrote : "What I do think is that when God kills infants it is justified" #14
You keep missing this>>>Could you give us a few examples of  "god justifiably"  killing infants  and explain these actions that you  believe justifies god to commit infanticide?
 










#29
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret



.

Tradesecret,  the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, and the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed!

This post is in answer to your biblically ignore post #26:


"'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. "Leviticus 20:9

YOUR MISGUIDED QUOTE ONCE AGAIN REGARDING THE PASSAGE ABOVE: “I think firstly this is talking about adult children. Not infants.” 

Are you calling Jesus a LIAR once again in His following direct words relating to Leviticus 20:9?!    Jesus replied,  “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?  For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.  (Matthew 15: 3-4)

Merriman Webster Dictionary Definition of the word anyone:  any person at all.  

Now, tell us, what part of the word "anyone" that Jesus used in the passage above don’t you understand?  The word "anyone" can include infants, toddlers, preschoolers, school-age, high schoolers AND ADULTS, therefore in an absolute sense, Jesus was not only talking about adults like you insidiously stated but infants as well!


Tradesecret, you are so easily made the Bible fool within this forum, whereas you totally amaze the membership with your complete Bible stupidity and ignorance on a continued basis, and always at your embarrassing expense. 
 


#30
BrotherDThomas
BrotherDThomas's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,140
3
3
7
BrotherDThomas's avatar
BrotherDThomas
3
3
7
-->
@Tradesecret



.
Tradesecret,  the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, and the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed!

YOUR QUOTE TO DISRESPECT JESUS: "In our modern world we justify the murder of millions of unborn babies on the basis that it is inconvenient to some."

As I have stated ad infinitum, your complete stupidity and biblical ignorance is totally without bounds!  

Listen up Bible fool, Jesus as our serial killer Yahweh/God incarnate controls everything, remember? Since Jesus controls LIFE (Job 12:10), and he knows EVERYTHING (1 John 3:20), then Jesus knows when he is going to spontaneously abort innocent zygotes and fetus’ from the wombs of billions of women!  Therefore, one can only wonder in how many of these innocent MURDERS Jesus has done in the past and will do in the future! Jesus, not chance, decides what happens in human affairs; “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”(Proverbs 16:33) 

“Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29). “Not a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will.” (Matthew 10:29). In the same vein as Jesus “willing” the fall of a sparrow, he also “wills” the ABORTION of innocent zygotes and fetus’!

Barring Jesus' Great Flood where he aborted hundreds of thousands of innocent zygotes and fetus' within the mothers womb, Jesus as God, is held culpable for ALL, I repeat ALL spontaneous abortions upon planet earth, period, and you have the audacity to state that millions of unborn babies are aborted on the basis that it is inconvenient to some!  


Tradesecret, with your complete Bible stupidity, it is a wonder in how you can continue to show yourself within this forum!



.