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@secularmerlin
well it certainly helps
Religion should prepare us for a mentality, not faith to God
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@Dr.Franklin
Humans are social creatures whose brains are wired to detect patterns and meanings even when none exist. Far from needing help it is almost impossible to keep us from feeling a sense of community and purpose.
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@secularmerlin
through religion
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@Dr.Franklin
Simply through being human. Religion is not necessary because humans are social animals who look for meaning in the universe.
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@secularmerlin
religion is neccessary
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@Dr.Franklin
For what exactly? When explaining please don't just assume your conclusion demonstrate it.
If anything, religion is unneeded.
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@secularmerlin
every society thrives with religion
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@Dr.Franklin
China thrives without a religion. You should call it a belief system. Non-theist belief systems, such as Juche, can still make a government run round and round.
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@Dr.Franklin
I'm not sure the statistics back up that hypothesis. In fact in nearly every metric we consider an indicator of success and happiness there would seem to be an inverse correlation between quality of life and religiosity.
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@SirAnonymous
You just painted 84% of the world with the same brush and essentially called them all moral prigs
What I have written, I have written, from my own observations and experience. I will grant you that some religions are more tolerant of the infidel than others. But you need to look up the word - tolerate.
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@Intelligence_06
China thrives without a religion. You should call it a belief system. Non-theist belief systems, such as Juche, can still make a government run round and round.
Thriving you call it,
'I say that the efforts by some factions in China to do away with culture and religion lead to the marring and crippling of China for a time.
"In 1978, Deng Xiaoping became the new paramount leader of China and started the "Boluan Fanzheng" program which gradually dismantled the Maoist policies associated with the Cultural Revolution, and brought the country back to order. Deng then began a new phase of China by initiating the historic Reforms and Opening-Up program. In 1981, the Communist Party of China declared that the Cultural Revolution was "responsible for the most severe setback and the heaviest losses suffered by the Party, the country, and the people since the founding of the People's Republic."[9][10]"
It really doesn't matter if it's Juche, Confucianism, of Humanism in my mind.
There's a sense of the sacred about it in my mind,
A sense of regulated behavior justified to most by objective assumptions,
And much like South Park, in that one episode where Cartman goes to the future, Go God Go, I don't expect humans to ever lose religion.
Just cloak it in other guises.
And whether Russia or China,
After the murderous regime cools it's jets for a bit,
One see's how more traditional religions returns.
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@Stephen
What I have written, I have written, from my own observations and experience.
I am sorry that is reflective of your own experience, but it would be foolish to pretend that your personal experience is a logical ground on which to insult billions of people you've never met.
I will grant you that some religions are more tolerant of the infidel than others.
I will grant that there are people of every religion, including those of no religion at all, can be very intolerant of people with different beliefs. But if you're going to lump billions of people into the same basket, you should be able to back it up with objective data, or not make the assertion in the first place.
But you need to look up the word - tolerate.
I know what it means and I do my best to tolerate others' beliefs. I apologize if I do not seem tolerant to you.
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@SirAnonymous
As a Christian who knows a lot of other Christians, I cannot think of even a single one who believes that non-Christians are incapable of having morals or living a moral life.
I can appreciate that some or even many theists are not if this opinion but I have encountered many times on this very server the argument that morality must necessarily come from some god(s) and that simply failing to believe in god(s) is itself immoral.
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@secularmerlin
morality must necessarily come from some god(s)
Objective morality, yes (although I do know of some atheist philosophers who would disagree with this). Subjective morality, no. While I don't agree with subjective morality, many people do and have morals based on it.
simply failing to believe in god(s) is itself immoral.
I would actually say it is (pedant mode: it's not disbelief that He exists that is immoral but rather the rejection of His salvation), but I would also say that I'm not any more moral than you. That is, we are all guilty of immoral things and are in fact naturally immoral. In my view, we're all in the same boat morality-wise. The only difference is that I trust in God's ability to save me from my immorality, but that is a question of faith and not merit, so I have no cause to boast.
When I say that non-Christians can be moral, I mean moral as in being a generally nice person, not being a jerk or a criminal, etc. I don't mean moral as in innocent of all immorality, which none of us are. To try to end my rambling, yes, you can be moral even though you aren't a Christian. However, none of us are morally perfect.
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@SirAnonymous
Do you believe that moral (by the metric you are employing) atheists go to hell?
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@SirAnonymous
But you need to look up the word - tolerate.I know what it means and I do my best to tolerate others' beliefs.
tolerate
/ˈtɒləreɪt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
- 1.allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one dislikes or disagrees with) without interference.
And of course all non believers will not see paradise;
John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 3:16 : “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (emphasis added). Even this verse proclaiming God’s love and desire to save people adds the caveat that they must “believe in Him” to have everlasting life.
So even those infidels that do live an moral upstanding life will not see heaven or god simply because they did not believe. Very tolerant!
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@secularmerlin
Do you believe that moral (by the metric you are employing) atheists go to hell?
Yes.
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@Stephen
So even those infidels that do live an moral upstanding life will not see heaven or god simply because they did not believe. Very tolerant!
Moral and upstanding isn't the standard by which God judges us. Perfection is. None of us can meet that standard. That is why Jesus took our punishment on the cross. However, the gift of salvation can't help you if you reject it. If you don't like that standard, it won't do any good to argue about it with me, because it's not my standard. It's God's.
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@Stephen
Let me ask you a question. Do you think morality is objective or subjective? If it's objective, where does it come from? If it's subjective, then what basis do you have for condemning God's justice (or anything else) beyond your own personal preference?
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@SirAnonymous
And you do believe that it is morally correct for them to be sent to hell?
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@Intelligence_06
China stuck to their traditions, not necessarily religion
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@secularmerlin
prosperity is helped by religion, what about the long boom?
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@Dr.Franklin
prosperity is helped by religion, what about the long boom?
How have you ruled put advances in agriculture, engineering, computers and medicine for this phenomenon? That is right about the time period you are talking about.
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@secularmerlin
And you do believe that it is morally correct for them to be sent to hell?
Yes.
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@SirAnonymous
Why?
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@Dr.Franklin
China stuck to their traditions, not necessarily religion
Oh, so as long as there is religion it is fine? Because chinese traditions contradicts with Christianity.
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@Intelligence_06
Because all of us are sinners. We all deserve hell. God has provided us a way to be saved, but if we reject it, then we will get what we deserve.
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@SirAnonymous
Yay! We are going to Hell! We will produce our own fun there! We are handed fun when we go to Heaven and we are handed none going to Hell. As a result, we could create our own fun regardless of what people tell us!
I don't see why going to hell is a problem. It is just warm, cozy and I can have people like me, maybe even learning things there. Speaking of religion, we are told to face problems head-on, but why are we trying so hard escaping hell, and why doesn't religions tell us to find fun even in Hell? If Anna Frank found fun living under Nazis' eyelids, why is that the reason that we should avoid hell instead of coping with it? Also, prove that we are sinners without using anything in the bible.
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@SirAnonymous
So you think it is morally correct to convict people of thought crime. I'm afraid I cannot agree. Punishing people for their beliefs (something that is beyond their control) is in my opinion morally reprehensible.