Author: janesix

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@janesix
You must consider the possibility that the conscious mind doesn't "do" anything in the sense that it is just a trivial side-effect of the normal operation of our brain. You might as well be asking, "well, what does car exhaust do?" In terms of the functioning of the car, it doesn't do anything. It's not part of the car's necessary operation, it's just a byproduct.

That said, while consciousness can't change choices already made, it can influence future actions. Behavior is cyclical. We receive information about our environment. Our brain processes that information and decides upon a response. Our response then effects and changes the environment. We receive information about the environment, etc.

Through our ability to change the environment, we can then change our own future behavior since our behavior is dependent upon the environment. Our consciousness is in this process, so necessarily it can effect that process. But the effects of consciousness come after the decisions of the subconscious. The conscious mind isn't doing the deciding, it's doing the rationalizing. It assigns meaning and constructs a pleasant little narrative, after the fact.

Consider Alien hand syndrome. With this condition your hand is operating as if it has a mind of its own. Its behavior is not random or erratic. It is capable of performing deliberate and complex acts that the conscious mind is completely unaware of. So clearly the conscious mind is not a necessary component of decision making or action taking.

Consider other examples of severing the two halves of the brain:

When subjected to a series of lies sent only to one side of their vision or the other, people with split brain would only report on lights flashed on the right side of their field of vision. But when asked to point to any light that flashed, they would correctly point to every light that flashed even the lights they did not report as having seen flashed! So clearly the conscious mind is not necessary in processing input, making decisions, or taking action!

Most striking, I think, is this:

Certain experiments that Gazzaniga conducted with split-brain patients also led him to develop the concept of the “left-hemisphere interpreter”. In one of these classic experiments, the split-brain patient had to point with his two hands at pictures of two objects corresponding to two images that he had seen on the divided screen (one with each of his two separated hemispheres). In the test shown here, the patient’s left hand is pointing at the card with a picture of a snow shovel, because the right hemisphere, which controls this hand, has seen the projected image of a winter scene. Meanwhile, his right hand is pointing at the card with a picture of a chicken, because his left hemisphere has seen the image of a chicken’s foot.

But when the patient is asked to explain why his left hand is pointing at the shovel, his talking hemisphere—the left one—has no access to the information seen by the right, and so instead interprets his behaviour by responding that the reason is that you use a shovel to clean out the chicken house! Experiments like this show just how ready the brain is to provide language-based explanations for behaviour.

So not only is your conscious mind not required in input, decision making, or action taking, but it'll readily invent completely fabricated justifications for why you took a certain action!

janesix
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@drafterman
This could simply be showing that the subconscious CAN take control if there is injury to the brain, or if we relinquish control to our animal brains. Kind o fa reversion to animal behavior.

Do you REALLY think you are not responsible for your own actions? What does your gut feeling tell you? I am having a hard time believing a person really doesn't feel they have free will. 
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This could simply be showing that the subconscious CAN take control if there is injury to the brain, or if we relinquish control to our animal brains. Kind o fa reversion to animal behavior.
Except that's not what's happening here. It doesn't involve those "animal" parts of the brain. It involves complex and abstract thought. Your subconscious brain seeing a picture of snow and telling your hand to point to a snow shovel, all without the involvement of your conscious brain.

Do you REALLY think you are not responsible for your own actions?
Of course I'm "responsible" for my own actions. But "I" includes all of me, including my subconscious decisions.

What does your gut feeling tell you?
What does my gut feeling have to do with how reality actually is?
janesix
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@drafterman
What does my gut feeling have to do with how reality actually is?
I am curious to how other people's minds work. Can you humor me?




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@janesix
My mind "works" the same mind as just about everyone else. Like, I don't have a disease or dysfunction. I have the same basic intuitions as you. But my education has taught me that reality doesn't conform to my instincts.

If we were to boil down the entire body of physics into a statement, it would be: "It's weird as shit, ya'll." Our brains, through millions of years of evolution are wired to ensure our survival in macroscopic, Earth-like conditions. Things like quantum weirdness, relativity of time and such are admittedly counter-intuitive.

That doesn't make them not true.
janesix
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@drafterman
Thank you for answering. 


You have been patient and I appreciate that.

I am not sure if my mind works like yours does. Like a normal person.
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@janesix
I am not sure if my mind works like yours does. Like a normal person.
Being honest with yourself is all you have to do, not much more than that.
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@Goldtop
I am.
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@Mopac
This is the defence of their fantasy world and beliefs that they are forced to employ in order that they not allow reality to breach the fantasies. In fantasy world where they can't support their claims having an outsider asking them to support their claims is an attack designed to silence them. Of course that self preservation routine has no basis in reality but neither do any of their beliefs.
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@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality

Opposite of fantasy.
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@drafterman
That's your subconscious talking.
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@Mopac
blah, blah, second verse the same as the first, blah, blah.
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@disgusted
Ignoring what makes you wrong doesn't make you right, clown shoes.

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@Mopac
Maybe you are expecting a miracle. 
I was just hoping for any kind of response, really. I would prefer to live in a universe where there's a higher power that cares about me. It's a very heartening idea. I'm with theists there.

But reality isn't about what I want, or what I find heartening.

God is The Truth. You know The Truth exists. A relationship with God is a relationship with that.
Then why even use the word God?
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@Castin
Because that is what God means. The Ultimate Reality.


Is it really that strange? Look around and it isn't too hard to see that this is not the most important thing in people's lives. Even people who claim to love the truth have their love polluted by what they can get out of it. Truth in relation to how it satisfies the lusts of the mind and flesh.

I am not making an innovation, this is how God is understood in theology.

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@Mopac
What would you say if I told you that no, Satan is the Ultimate Reality, and if you deny it you're being insensible because Ultimate Reality can't be denied, if you know truth then you know Satan, they're the same thing.
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@Castin
I would tell you that words are not arbitrarily defined, and this is not how Satan is understood in theology.

Goldtop
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@Mopac
this is not how Satan is understood in theology.

"Ultimate Reality" - This is also not how God is understood in Theology. You have failed using your own argument, again.
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@Mopac
I am not making an innovation, this is how God is understood in theology.

You are lying again, you will never find the term Ultimate Reality in Scriptures or Theology.

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@Goldtop
If you feel so sure that I'm lying, challenge me to a debate and be humbled.

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@Mopac
If you feel so sure that I'm lying,
It's not a feeling, it has been demonstrated you have been lying.

challenge me to a debate
You don't know how to debate nor are you here to debate, you are here only to preach and your preaching has been shown to be false, that you are lying and deceiving everyone here.
Mopac
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@Goldtop
Cop out
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@Mopac
Cop out
Liar.
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@Mopac
No, it's the Truth with a capital bupbupbupbaaaaaa.
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@janesix
I find it futile to argue with atheists on the existence of God. 

Because unless they experience God for themselves, there is simply no way to convince them that God exists. 
Is your goal to convince atheists that god exists? That may be a futile endeavor in most if not all cases but that certainly isn't the only possible goal one might have for presenting an argument. I don't expect I shall convince any theists that the available evidence does not support their claims but it isn't a futile endeavor to debate with theists about the subject. Even if we both remain unconvinced of the others position it gives one sonething to think about. Also if I make even one friend (and I concider you my friend so I have) then the process was far from futile. 

I guess what I'm really trying to say janesix is thank you for being you☺.
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@Mopac
words are not arbitrarily defined

I disagree. All words have arbitrary definitions. Language evolves over time as popular usage changes and popular usage is all that a definition describes.
janesix
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@secularmerlin
s your goal to convince atheists that god exists? That may be a futile endeavor in most if not all cases but that certainly isn't the only possible goal one might have for presenting an argument. I don't expect I shall convince any theists that the available evidence does not support their claims but it isn't a futile endeavor to debate with theists about the subject. Even if we both remain unconvinced of the others position it gives one sonething to think about. Also if I make even one friend (and I concider you my friend so I have) then the process was far from futile. 

Sometimes it is my goal, with certain people. 



I guess what I'm really trying to say janesix is thank you for being you☺
Thanks SM, I consider you a friend as well



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@secularmerlin
I disagree. All words have arbitrary definitions. Language evolves over time as popular usage changes and popular usage is all that a definition describes.
I don't understand what riding hippos across the great plains has to do with this topic. Clearly we are talking about canned olives.
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@Mopac
And if we agreed on a meaning for those words that made sense in that order in this context you would be right.
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@secularmerlin
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