Futile

Author: janesix

Posts

Total: 156
#61
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
Lot's of reasons.

1. The only evidence we have of free will is the innate sensation that we are somehow in control of our actions. But we're not. At least not consciously. The conscious control you think you have over your own body doesn't exist. Studies have shown that conscious awareness of your actions comes after your subconscious brain has already decided on a course of action. To the extent that you can monitor someone's brain activity and accurately predict what they are about to do before they are consciously aware of it. (Example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18408715)

2. "Free will" would have to be able to operate contrary to the laws of physics. Our brains are made of matter and therefore a subject to the laws of physics and there is nothing about the brain that seemingly defies the laws of physics. Since there is no "free will" law of physics, there doesn't seem to be any allowance for us to operate with "free will." While our behaviors may seem complex and unpredictable, there is nothing to suggest they are anything other than the complex interactions among atoms.

3. Relativity demonstrates that the past, present, and future, are relative. There is no objective, singular, instantaneous, universal "present." Different observers can disagree on whether two events have occurred simultaneously and there is no measure to say that one person is objectively right and the other objectively wrong.

Consider the event: "The pitcher threw the ball." For one observer that event may have happened in their past. For another, it is happening right now in their present, for yet another it could be an event that has not happened yet. The traditional view of time is that events in the past are no longer real, and events in the future are yet to be determined, and only events happening in the present are "real." Yet it would be absurd, given our example, to say the exact same event is both real, not real, and not yet determined. The only logical response is to accept that all events are real, regardless of whether or not they occur in someone's past, present, or future. The idea of a singular "present" is then just a fiction of our mind.

The past, present, and future for the entire universe then is "real" and predetermined. Our observation of the universe is just one among an infinite number of potential points of view observing a snap-shot or "slice" of the universe from a given perspective at a given time. Your birth, your present, your death, are all real events that cannot be changed.     
Topic's author
#62
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@Stephen
Interesting, but I don't believe God is the God of the Bible. Not my thing.
Topic's author
#63
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
We are in control of our thoughts, behaviors and actions. I am responsible for everything I do. So are you.
#64
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
Well, that's a view that is contrary to everything we know about the universe. But you do you.
Topic's author
#65
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Maybe everything you THINK you know about the universe. What I know is that I have responsibility for my behavior.

But you do you
I can't decipher that.
#66
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@janesix
Are you my psychiatrist now? You seem to know a lot about what I want.
You are the one who is telling us what you want, it doesn't take a psychiatrist to figure that out, it's obvious based on your words.
#67
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
Maybe everything you THINK you know about the universe. What I know is that I have responsibility for my behavior.
Then how do you explain the fact that we can predict people's actions before they're aware of them?

I can't decipher that.
"You do you" means you believe what you want to believe, I can't stop you.
Topic's author
#68
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@Goldtop
I didn't tell you anything about what I want You assume too much.

I want the truth. Now you know.
Topic's author
#69
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Then how do you explain the fact that we can predict people's actions before they're aware of them?
I don't know. Maybe we are predicting a probability.


Topic's author
#70
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
I tried to read your link. I only got a small abstract of the paper.
#71
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
Unfortunately the full article is behind a paywall. But it's just one example. The takeway, though, is:

"We found that the outcome of a decision can be encoded in brain activity of prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 10 s before it enters awareness."
Topic's author
#72
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Yeah, I think I got the gist of it.

It could just mean decisions are made subconsciously for the most part. I don't see how that would negate free will. Maybe we just process things subconsciously before they are brought to our conscious mind, where we can then process them further, before commiting to action.
#73
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
To me "free will" and "choice" implies a conscious decision/control.
Topic's author
#74
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Think of it this way. You can go against your instincts. Why couldn't you choose against what your subconscious has decided? or first reactions? 

#75
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
What's the difference between "you" and "your subconscious." When you say "you choose against what your subconscious has decided" what is going against what, here?
Topic's author
#76
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Probably the lower parts of the brain that aren't part of the conscious awareness. Whatever it is that make us "think" seems to be seperate from things like our instincts. 
#77
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
But you're acting like it's two, different unconnected parts of the brain here. Like, the subconscious mind makes a decision, hands it over to your conscious mind, then your conscious mind decides whether or not to go along with it or overrule it.

That's not what is happening here. Once your conscious mind is aware of making the choice, the choice was already made by your subconscious mind. Key phrase: already made. There is no opportunity here for your conscious mind to choose differently. Your brain (and therefore your body) have already committed to the act.
Topic's author
#78
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
But you're acting like it's two, different unconnected parts of the brain here. Like, the subconscious mind makes a decision, hands it over to your conscious mind, then your conscious mind decides whether or not to go along with it or overrule it.
How do you know that isn't exactly what happens? Do you not think there is a subconscious?

That's not what is happening here. Once your conscious mind is aware of making the choice, the choice was already made by your subconscious mind. Key phrase: already made. There is no opportunity here for your conscious mind to choose differently. Your brain (and therefore your body) have already committed to the act.

#79
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
How do you know that isn't exactly what happens?
Because then we'd be aware of our conscious mind receiving instructions from some subconscious part of my brain. I'm not aware of that. Are you? Do you receive instructions from unknown source?

Do you not think there is a subconscious?
I do, but it doesn't interact with the conscious brain in the manner you describe.
Topic's author
#80
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Because then we'd be aware of our conscious mind receiving instructions from some subconscious part of my brain. I'm not aware of that. Are you? Do you receive instructions from unknown source?
We get instructions from our instincts all the time. To sleep, to have sex, to eat. I suggest we get instructions from our subconscious in a similar manner. Gut reactions. Intuition. Feelings. 

 I do, but it doesn't interact with the conscious brain in the manner you describe
How do you know it doesn't?
#81
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
To sleep, to have sex, to eat.
Are you suggesting you have free will to not be tired, horny, or hungry? Because, remember, we're talking about Free Will here and you provided examples of things we don't have free will over.

How do you know it doesn't?
Because if it did, then we could deliberately thwart experiments like the one I showed you, by simply choosing differently than what our subconscious chose. But, again, the study shows that the choice is made before awareness. Once you're aware of the "choice" it's already been made. It's too late to change it.
Topic's author
#82
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Are you suggesting you have free will to not be tired, horny, or hungry? Because, remember, we're talking about Free Will here and you provided examples of things we don't have free will over.
No, you have free will to go against instincts. If you are hungry, you can choose not to eat. If you are aroused, you can choose not to have sex. 

Because if it did, then we could deliberately thwart experiments like the one I showed you, by simply choosing differently than what our subconscious chose. But, again, the study shows that the choice is made before awareness. Once you're aware of the "choice" it's already been made. It's too late to change it.
I didn't see enough of the study to determine if that is true. 

#83
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
No, you have free will to go against instincts. If you are hungry, you can choose not to eat. If you are aroused, you can choose not to have sex. 
I'm not talking about going to sleep, eating, or having sex. I'm talking about being tired, being hungry, and being aroused. Do you have free will over those things?

Topic's author
#84
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
No, but I don't understand the point you are making. 
#85
Goldtop
Goldtop's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,706
2
2
2
Goldtop's avatar
Goldtop
2
2
2
-->
@janesix
I want the truth. Now you know.
You want the "truth" based on what you want to be the truth and not what the truth really is. Your words here would be very different if you were actually looking for truth.

Topic's author
#86
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@Goldtop
Really? What words does a truth seeker use?
#87
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
I guess I have nothing more to add. The point I'm trying to make is whenever you are "consciously" aware of making a choice, the choice has already been made at a subconscious level.

So whenever you think you are choosing to go against your subconscious instincts, all that's happening is your subconscious mind has decided not to act on those instincts, and your conscious mind is becoming aware of that after the fact.

Whatever it is you think you are doing, if you are consciously aware of it, the brain has already decided it. There is no order of events here where the decision originates in your conscious mind.
Topic's author
#88
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
What is the point of the conscious mind if not to think and make decisions?
#89
drafterman
drafterman's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 5,653
3
6
9
drafterman's avatar
drafterman
3
6
9
-->
@janesix
Why does it have to have a point?
Topic's author
#90
janesix
janesix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,049
3
3
3
janesix's avatar
janesix
3
3
3
-->
@drafterman
Ok I'll put it this way, what does the conscious mind do?