Yo Can we please leave the previous game out of this
Naruto Mafia DP1
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@WaterPhoenix
ya, lynching gp.
Explain your thought process for us
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@ILikePie5
Yo Can we please leave the previous game out of this
Even the relevant parts relating to behavior?
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@Pattern
I’ll save this for an endgame talk, or a different forum topic. Won’t proceed much more
I’ll admit that I’ve been lazy in the past
Going to bed early. No DP1 lynch doesn’t seem like the end of the world, even if it definitely shouldn’t be repeated later.
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@Barney
Going to bed early. No DP1 lynch doesn’t seem like the end of the world, even if it definitely shouldn’t be repeated later.
+1
Plus there's been plenty of dialogue, gives investigators plenty of options for tonight.
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@ILikePie5
no justification
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@Pattern
Several personal attacks? Please link said attacks lol.
#444 speaks for itself
you've also been calling lots of people lazy ex. #454
Your not caught up on the game, you popped on saw a couple of wagons and only opined on them. What about every other player in the game?
ur still not explaining what wagons ive hopped on
i wasnt on the wagon trying to lynch u and i still dont think ur scum
ive been out of the house basically the whole way im doing the best i can to catch up
been answering any question thrown my way so far dont see what im doing wrong exactly
ive given u my reads and opinions dont see how thats "bandwagoning"
my opinions are my opinions.
You said you were willing to lynch either of the wagons though, if you didn't think either were scum why would you say that?
willing to lynch yall isnt the same as believing u guys to be scum
if the rest of town wanted me to lynch u guys i wouldve given some respect to their wishes an gone along with it despite me disagreeing with it
Yet you were willing to hop on a wagon
again, u still havent explained the "wagon" ive hopped
ive said this before an ill say it again my opinions are my opinions and ive given u my reasons
this is just a waste of time and i wont go any further
if u wanna discuss this on endgame ill do it but rn we should focus on figuring out whose scum
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@Pattern
Feel free to explain why at any point. Literally any point. When I last asked you, you just linked misterchris's reasons, which is a bandwagon. I also pointed out the hypocrisy in MisterChris's reasons, since he literally agreed with me that ousting a potential doc was anti-town and which was why he didn't do it himself. Bear plays like a noob, sure, but he isn't one. He's played in several games and knows that behavior is scummy. Maybe it didn't make as much sense coming from pattern who you supposed was new, but do you see why an experienced player finds his actions scummy? If not please let's go through this point by point. Don't just link someone else's case and pretend like that isn't wagoning. Say what you agree with in said case.
That's not how bandwagoning works lol. Grey, for example, is bandwagoning, because he does it for no reason. I'm not required to come up with an independent reason to lynch someone; if that was true, no one would ever get lynched. If I agree with someone else's read on you then it's justified for me to vote you based on the reasoning that the other person did.
since he literally agreed with me that ousting a potential doc was anti-town and which was why he didn't do it himself. Bear plays like a noob, sure, but he isn't one. He's played in several games and knows that behavior is scummy.
I already mentioned you in a post and explained why I think that it was towny of him to do that (it's possible for it to be anti-town and towny simultaneously).
Maybe it didn't make as much sense coming from pattern who you supposed was new, but do you see why an experienced player finds his actions scummy?
I absolutely see why you think it's scummy, I've never said you're unjustified for thinking it's scummy, I just disagree, and I find your tunneling of Bear scummy
The reasons:
- You've been extremely aggressive towards multiple players
- You've OMGUSd literally everyone who has even dared to say a bad word about you (exxageration but still)
- You self-voted
- You're frustrations about your possible lynch this DP are very similar to your frustrations about your lynch as lone wolf
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@Speedrace
That's not how bandwagoning works lol. Grey, for example, is bandwagoning, because he does it for no reason. I'm not required to come up with an independent reason to lynch someone; if that was true, no one would ever get lynched. If I agree with someone else's read on you then it's justified for me to vote you based on the reasoning that the other person did.
Mmm so if I go to vote on a debate, and I agree with someone else's vote, can I just vote and say "yeah, what he said!"? That's like the definition of bandwagoning.
You say you agree with so and so, then point out what specifically you agree with in your own words. You literally linked Misterchris's entire block of text.
I already mentioned you in a post and explained why I think that it was towny of him to do that (it's possible for it to be anti-town and towny simultaneously).
Are you trying to say it fits in with bears meta to do something anti town where you wouldn't treat another player the same? If so that's fine and I buy the argument somewhat. But Bear's reaction to me pointing out that he did a bad thing was the scummier part of the exchange.
Read this post after I voted him: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4683-naruto-mafia-dp1?page=10&post_number=243
He says I was accusing everyone, rather than try to logically explain his motivations and persuade me to reconsider.
You've been extremely aggressive towards multiple players
The only person I was actually aggressive with was croc/bearman when I mentioned they multi account and still can't win a mafia game. That's literally all the aggression lol. Why does everyone see large blocks of text, refuse to read them, and just interpret any back and forth as "aggressive"? Or do you mean the fact that I am actually pressuring people is aggressive? If so that's ridiculous, and if anything a town tell. Town have to figure out who scum is so pressuring people for reactions is the only way to do that. If I was really aggressive, I've had several opportunities to join your or grey's wagon, and I'm still opting to no lynch. Kind of the opposite of aggressive.
All this aside... Why is "being aggressive" a scum tell? Even if I was 'aggressive' I tend to notice aggression comes from more of a place of honesty.
You've OMGUSd literally everyone who has even dared to say a bad word about you (exxageration but still)
Your understanding of OMGUS is not correct. If you assume I have jumped on the wagon of every person who has voted me, that's just wrong. I do have an expectation for every player that if they are going to vote, they justify that vote. If someone jumps on a wagon without justifying said vote, I will naturally lean toward suspecting their motives. Why is challenging someone to explain a read "Omgus"? There are certain players I expect this behavior out of. People like you, pie, chris, or ragnar I expect more from.
You self-voted
I'll concede this, and my vote is still on myself. I don't like doing it in general but when I did this it seemed my position was pretty hopeless and if you were in my spot I think you would feel similar. People kept piling on my wagon without justifying it (yourself included) and if the game is going to be played like that, I'd honestly rather mafia win and keep winning games until town decide to fix this behavior that has unfortunately become commonly accepted.
You're frustrations about your possible lynch this DP are very similar to your frustrations about your lynch as lone wolf
Again, it's not the lynch that's frustrating, it's the lack of knowing why I am being lynched. You for example didn't say any of these things when you first voted for me. If you had maybe I would have been less frustrated. I have the expectation of people to put an effort into the the game. I love mafia and I hate to see the gameplay dwindle regardless of my affiliation. Frustrated gameplay for me is not affiliation related, and you've played enough with me that this should be evident. Remember office mafia? That was the epitome of frustrated Lunatic, and you used that to your advantage.
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@Pattern
Why was there no reason to be a 3rd party? How could you know that?
Because there were 12 players, so it had a perfect 9 to 3 town to mafia ratio. It's really unlikely to put 3-P's in games like those where the ratio is perfect
I get snarky when talking to brick walls. I do that as town and scum.
This is what you sound like:
You (mafia): Haha guys I'm third party rekttttt
Town: Uh that doesn't make sense because of the perfect ratio + behavioral reasons *lynches you*
You: HOW DARE YOU LYNCH ME, I COULD'VE BEEN THIRD PARTY
...but you weren't
Im bald, and somehow supa had me wanting to pull my fvcking hair out lol.
For the investigating you stuff, sure lol. But the lynch was justified
Dude kept saying "I know you scum" without substantiating it.
Supa: "Second, you seem to want to be kept alive, if you won already, you shouldn't care", "I have a strong time believing that justification at all. It just seems like a cop out fmpov", "Because I had a feeling your scum buddy was gonna try to drive the train away from you and focus on someone else. Furthermore, I think this is a gambit that you are doing to prevent yourself from getting lynched, playing the "third party" role. I have a hard time believing that was your motivation. I think you did that to prey on a noob. With GP, you were much more subtle and outted yourself in general", "Lunatic literally has no utility to town besides his "support." You don't even know if he's lying. ", "I still think your bullshitting this entire thing. It just seems to convenient IMO", "2) it's a 12 person setup, the optimal formula is 9v3, a 9v2v1 is a disadvantage.", "3) yes, but i believing you are lying just by behavior, and yes i am aware. i am saying you are lying",
Did Supa have some bad reasons for voting you? Absolutely, but he had some very good ones too. The vote wasn't unsubstantiated in the slightest. Also this:
"A guilty means you are anti town, whatever your role is. "
He's technically right, the drafterman list cops 3-P who can win with town as innocent. I was too busy to say this in the DP. He didn't know that ofc but still.
Also, warren literally says this: "For what it's worth I have [put third parties] in 10 player games before."
Also if I recall correctly, during one of the quickfires you literally said that we should policy lynch 3p's lol. I could be wrong tho
Also intermission, you said this in that game and I meant to respond but forgot but I was reading over everything and this made me remember: "Speed is a new mod, he literally asked me for help balancing his last game. And you... Well, how do I put this nicely?"
New is a stretch, and just because I'm a new mod doesn't mean my style of counting 3p's is incorrect lol
Back to regularly scheduled programming:
And everyone was bandwagoning him.
They agreed with his reasons. That's not a crime (although I'm sure there were some that voted with out thinking lol so you'd be justified for being mad at them)
If I was actually 3rd party you guys had wasted a lynch.
...but you weren't, so this is a moot point lol.
By that logic, all mafia should always claim third party because town shouldn't lynch them since they might be wasting a lynch. Like wut
It's not the lynch that pissed me off, it was the extreme lack of dialogue.
I was confident that you were scum and was pretty sure that you wouldn't get lynched if I didn't hammer you.
The whole point of the gambit was going to be talking my way out of it like I did with the miller claim.
So this is really just you being mad that your gambit didn't go how you planned lol
If I heard plenty of solid reasons about why I was scum and still got lynched I would have been okay with it.
Clearly you did hear plenty of solid reasons as outlined above
That lynch would have happened regardless of if I was or wasn't actually 3rd party because it was the easy option. At least in your game I was able to help town afterwards.
Totally different. In my game I literally said there was a 3P at the start lol. And the lynch would not have happened anyway because the factors that led us to lynch you in the first place would've been different (e.g., the ratio would've been acceptable for 3P, your attitude would've more closely matched your attitude when you were lyncher in my game, etc.). And if the factors weren't different well then you would've been lynched because logic pointed towards you being scum
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@Pattern
2. Last game, Disc lying directly told me that he was almost definitely scum. In this case me being PGO doesn't tell me who is scum lol so I can't say who to lynch next DP.Disc actually had the telescope though lol
Yeah but him lying about the results he got from it was more likely than Supa lying about being cop, especially with him investigating you lol
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@Pattern
Again, MCU mafia. Why was I allowed to live and help the town there? Supa, supa, supa. You are generally a nice guy, but don't try to deny you aren't as lazy as the rest of them son.
Because I said there was a 3P at the start
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@skittlez09
#444 speaks for itself
Not a personal attack; I genuinely think that user is multi-accounting. They wagon everything the other says and croc convienently pops online similar times to bearman just to come to his defense. But if supa is allowing them both in what do? I allowed them in my game too. Don't have hard evidence to say for a fact, but it's kind of obvious. Dude had also just got done insulting me, so I think it's fair to fight fire with fire. He had called me useless multiple times before that, which you fail to mention since it fit's your narrative.
you've also been calling lots of people lazy ex. #454
Again, it's a fact. People can prove me wrong here by actually playing and providing reasons with their votes.
ur still not explaining what wagons ive hopped oni wasnt on the wagon trying to lynch u and i still dont think ur scumive been out of the house basically the whole way im doing the best i can to catch upbeen answering any question thrown my way so far dont see what im doing wrong exactlyive given u my reads and opinions dont see how thats "bandwagoning"my opinions are my opinions.
I didn't say you hopped on a wagon? You opined about potentially hopping on a wagon. This game requires you to substantiate opinions.
willing to lynch yall isnt the same as believing u guys to be scum
Lynching townies is anti-town. Why would you do that?
f the rest of town wanted me to lynch u guys i wouldve given some respect to their wishes an gone along with it despite me disagreeing with it
That's bandwagoning. Don't do that.
again, u still havent explained the "wagon" ive hoppedive said this before an ill say it again my opinions are my opinions and ive given u my reasonsthis is just a waste of time and i wont go any furtherif u wanna discuss this on endgame ill do it but rn we should focus on figuring out whose scum
All I am suggesting is that you explain your opinons and actually play lol. Relax.
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@Speedrace
Omw home should be there in like 40 minutes, and I'll respond to the rest
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@Pattern
Mmm so if I go to vote on a debate, and I agree with someone else's vote, can I just vote and say "yeah, what he said!"? That's like the definition of bandwagoning.You say you agree with so and so, then point out what specifically you agree with in your own words. You literally linked Misterchris's entire block of text.
Linking his is more efficient than typing out the exact same stuff lol. And the vote stuff is valid, just not allowed by the COC. As long as you can clearly explain the reasons if directly asked, you're justified.
I already mentioned you in a post and explained why I think that it was towny of him to do that (it's possible for it to be anti-town and towny simultaneously).Are you trying to say it fits in with bears meta to do something anti town where you wouldn't treat another player the same? If so that's fine and I buy the argument somewhat. But Bear's reaction to me pointing out that he did a bad thing was the scummier part of the exchange.Read this post after I voted him: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4683-naruto-mafia-dp1?page=10&post_number=243He says I was accusing everyone, rather than try to logically explain his motivations and persuade me to reconsider.
I'm saying that whether or not it was anti-town is irrelevant because it's towny. And he did eventually explain his motivations.
The only person I was actually aggressive with was croc/bearman when I mentioned they multi account and still can't win a mafia game. That's literally all the aggression lol. Why does everyone see large blocks of text, refuse to read them, and just interpret any back and forth as "aggressive"?
I've read literally everything so try again.
Or do you mean the fact that I am actually pressuring people is aggressive? If so that's ridiculous, and if anything a town tell. Town have to figure out who scum is so pressuring people for reactions is the only way to do that. If I was really aggressive, I've had several opportunities to join your or grey's wagon, and I'm still opting to no lynch. Kind of the opposite of aggressive.All this aside... Why is "being aggressive" a scum tell? Even if I was 'aggressive' I tend to notice aggression comes from more of a place of honesty.
Looking back I think it was because you were roleplaying, the way you did it make you seem pompous and self-assured which caused an air of aggression, at least to me.
And I should've said tunneled, being aggressive isn't inherently scummy
Your understanding of OMGUS is not correct. If you assume I have jumped on the wagon of every person who has voted me, that's just wrong. I do have an expectation for every player that if they are going to vote, they justify that vote. If someone jumps on a wagon without justifying said vote, I will naturally lean toward suspecting their motives. Why is challenging someone to explain a read "Omgus"? There are certain players I expect this behavior out of. People like you, pie, chris, or ragnar I expect more from.
OMGUS doesn't necessarily have to involve voting, it can be just general scum reading. You've scum read literally every person who has said something negative about you and a lot of them have given reasons.
I'll concede this, and my vote is still on myself. I don't like doing it in general but when I did this it seemed my position was pretty hopeless and if you were in my spot I think you would feel similar. People kept piling on my wagon without justifying it (yourself included) and if the game is going to be played like that, I'd honestly rather mafia win and keep winning games until town decide to fix this behavior that has unfortunately become commonly accepted.
I've been in your spot multiple times, but I never self-voted, hence why you self-voting makes me think you're scum lol.
Again, it's not the lynch that's frustrating, it's the lack of knowing why I am being lynched. You for example didn't say any of these things when you first voted for me. If you had maybe I would have been less frustrated. I have the expectation of people to put an effort into the the game. I love mafia and I hate to see the gameplay dwindle regardless of my affiliation.
II'm very busy so linking Chris' post for example is just easier for me if I have to catch up on like 10 pages before going back to work. Next time maybe just ask "why are you voting me" instead of insta-scum reading someone
Frustrated gameplay for me is not affiliation related, and you've played enough with me that this should be evident. Remember office mafia? That was the epitome of frustrated Lunatic, and you used that to your advantage.
Fair enough
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@Pattern
Okkkk stay safe
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@Pattern
To clarify something about the voting stuff, I think it's completely fine when someone votes something and says "because of what they said." The problem comes in when you ask them to elaborate and they can't clearly explain why the reasons given logically lead to you being scum, or logically leads to one person being the winner of a debate. The only reason you can't do that in debates is because there's no way to verify that you can elaborate; in mafia you can verify it by asking.
Also I didn't realize you were bald lol
I think it's pretty clear at this point both Speed and Pattern are townies, but this nuclear war is still interesting to watch
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@Pattern
ive given my reads an opinions, ur choosing to cast them aside.
i aint the one whose tryna pick fights with everyone or call people lazy
yet apparently im the dude who needs to chill lol
i dont think pattern is scum but so far hes proven himself to be unhelpful towards town an is wasting our time
VTL pattern
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@Speedrace
@Pattern
As I said above, I think you're both townies at this point.
While I agree with Speed that Pattern was the best lead... That was only true up until recent developments.
It should say something that despite me spearheading the movement to lynch him I am having enough doubt to call it off for now.
At this point, I'm willing to give Pattern the benefit of the doubt, and I encourage anyone with investigative powers to investigate him if we're still worried. I think our resources are much better spent scouting out users who have been under the radar.
As Pattern said: "An active town will eat itself in the presence of inactive scum. Inactives should always be pressured."
So, I urge you two to call off the nuclear warfare... For now, anyway. If new evidence emerges, we can discuss... But I see little use in continuing drilling that rabbit hole further.
I would still strongly prefer to lynch GP
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@MisterChris
At this point, I'm willing to give Pattern the benefit of the doubt, and I encourage anyone with investigative powers to investigate him if we're still worried. I think our resources are much better spent scouting out users who have been under the radar.As Pattern said: "An active town will eat itself in the presence of inactive scum. Inactives should always be pressured."So, I urge you two to call off the nuclear warfare... For now, anyway. If new evidence emerges, we can discuss... But I see little use in continuing drilling that rabbit hole further.
Meh it's not really a nuclear war now lol it's kinda simmered down into a friendly discussion of the rights and wrongs of playing mafia. Still think he's scum but I'm ok leaving it up to a cop or whoever. Very much want to lynch GP
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@Speedrace
I guess that Pattern has a high probability of being investigated... We have one with confessed tracking ability, so I'm confident someone has an investigative ability that they can utilize here.
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@Speedrace
@MisterChris
I think our resources are much better spent scouting out users who have been under the radar.
yall are prolly right i mean GP has been lurky asf this whole game least patterns been active
ill pull my vote off him for now unvote
I can't remember if I'm voting GP so VTL GP
I'm not going to vote yet. Still have time.
Nvm I saw the date wrong. I'm just going with NO LYNCH.