Your LEAST favorite Bible Story?

You keep saying that these were "innocent" people or "innocent" children. 

However, according to the Bible, no one is innocent. 

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

Furthermore, the Bible also says, "For the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)

If we put 2 and 2 together, this means that everyone deserves death because everyone is a sinner.

So if the Bible is true,

And most people want a quite life, but prophets and their disciples have a tendency to want to f**k things up.

You keep saying that these were "innocent" people or "innocent" children. However, according to the Bible, no one is innocent. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) Furthermore, the Bible also says, "For the wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) If we put 2 and 2 together, this means that everyone deserves death because everyone is a sinner. So if the Bible is true, then God is justified when he kills people.

So you don't think any human has any personal responsibility for anything?

 

Of course I do you silly little man.

But what you don't want to understand or accept is that I wouldn't butcher your  innocent children for something you may or may not have been responsible for.  You are also ignoring the fact that the bible is clear as to why Pharaoh acted the way he did. 

A wager is hardly a fitting description of what is going on here.  

It was nothing short of a bet. Stop trying to play down and  make this dreadful violent biblical episode anything less than what it was. It was sheer wanton violence for the sake of your gods ego and reputation.

 I can back everything I say with evidence.

Not without  lies and reinterpretation  and putting words into the mouths of the authors and characters of the bible. You lot are all the fkn same. You like to talk and discuss what it is the bible never says. 

 I can back everything I say with evidence.

lets see you evidence for the existence of god. Lets us see your evidence of how god is supposed to have created the whole world and universe and all that is in it in only six days. 

 Where in the OT  is it that god condemns all babies to death for sin.

There are over 30 verses in the bible claiming people to be "innocent" and or "blameless".

blameless

adjective

Innocent of wrongdoing. 

Were not Zechariah and Elizabeth said to have been blameless in the eyes of god?  Or are you going to tell me that to be blameless in ancient times meant that Zechariah and Elizabeth were fond of threesomes and hard core porn? 

What are the sins committed by  first born children/babies?

Try reading the psalms of David for instance and tell me who "the innocent" are that are being refereed to?  And what about the Philippians? 

"Prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach ".

How can anyone then,  according to your maths,  ever hope to " prove themselves innocent" when you and your maths  say "everyone is a sinner."

So if the Bible is true,

Are you asking me or telling me? 

If you begin from the position of God's infallibility and the Bible's inerrancy as the inspired word of God, then it seems to me that no story in the Bible can be wrong enough that it is acceptable to hate or dislike it. If it seems wrong to you or to others, you will believe you or they have misunderstood it, that there is some deeper meaning you or they do not yet understand, or even refuse to believe (in the case of atheists/skeptics) - and your faith will drive you to find a meaning that is compatible with your faith. That is just what it means to look at the Bible through the lens of inerrancy, and it seems rather to me that you are asking if there are any Christians who don't look at the Bible through that lens.

Sort of...it's not really a lens of inerrancy anymore, though, it's more like a 'filter of contemporary.' The words in the bible are the words in the bible, and if it's not meant to be read or understood in anything but its native language, it shouldn't be published in any other language, because that risk misinterpretation. If these words are difficult, as they really are, for Christians to square with a character (god / Jesus) who they've been taught is nothing but love and justice and all things good, then you're correct, their faith seems likely to drive them toward any explanation, no matter how flimsy (see: Rod's explanation of the bible's instructions on who's okay to own as a slave, i.e.). These post-hoc rationalizations would indicate really clearly that there's a level of discomfort between the book and contemporary values. I don't expect a Christian to say 'the bible is wrong.' I hope there are some who wonder why the god they're taught about as a naive child isn't the same god in the book they're told is a modern manual to daily life. 

 You continue on every occasion, EVERY OCCASION, to excuse the sinfulness of the humans .

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,

    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

 "Do you on some level think any parts of the Bible are wrong?"

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,

    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

So please explain how the baby is sinful in the womb if it is not inherited?

Or will you just ignore this verse and pretend it is fake?

What absolute claptrap. You need to learn how to read your bible.

That's your job. You are claiming something I haven't claimed. Psalm 51 is traditionally claimed to have been composed by David as a confession to his god after he sinned with Bathsheba? 

 So this is Davids opinion and belief.

As a rule, I see a problem with looking at any ancient texts without taking into consideration the context of the time, people, language, and culture.

However, I also see a problem with looking at the Bible through the lens of inerrancy, as I believe it was a book written by quite fallible humans from quite a long time ago on the road of moral and intellectual progress.

I confess I have paid little study to the passage of Elisha and the bears in particular. My prima facie read is that the youths' mocking is seen as an insult to God (through his prophet) and it is dealt with as insults to God usually are in the Old Testament. I'm not sure what you mean by a "contemporary interpretation" of the story.

The Binding of Isaac I have paid much more attention to as it is one of the more fascinating passages to me, inspiring such a wealth of interpretations in Jewish, Christian, and even Muslim tradition. I always enjoy exploring these interpretations, but I will address yours.

I assume you are referring to Genesis 21:12.

It is interesting that you think this means Abraham knew God would prevent the sacrifice, as the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews seems to

think it meant Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead after Abraham had gone through with it and sacrificed him (Hebrews 11:17-19). Of course, that is a Christian perspective and I remind myself that Christians did not write Genesis.

So for the sake of argument I will ask this: If Abraham knew God wouldn't let him go through with it, was it really a test? Was the angel really justified in declaring "Now I know you fear God"?

This is indeed interesting. To my knowledge, the text uses the two terms Elohim and Yahweh. Are you then referring to Elohim, which I know was

sometimes used to refer to kings and profits (authorities)?

I admit the Old Testament God does often come across as mean-spirited to me, but this does not strike me as unusual for the period at all. The gods of this time were very often fierce, brutal, and warlike. We are talking about a tribal people living very close to the edge of survival, constantly subjected to violence and warfare with other tribes, totally at the mercy of pestilence and nature. What we go through always shapes what we believe. What else can we realistically expect? They wanted a strong, fierce god who rewarded blind loyalty, favored only them, and rained wrath and destruction upon their enemies. Much later Jews, the ones who became the early Christians, wanted a different sort of

God (a much better one, imo - ahem) and wrote a very different testament (a much better one, imo - ahem).

 "Do you on some level think any parts of the Bible are wrong?"

In retrospect, a much easier entree into the discussion, wish I'd thought of it. 

 They read it as a group of  little children mocking Elisha's lack of hair. Elisha gets offended because he's sensitive about it, throws a tantrum, commands 2 bears to come out and slaughter the little culprits.

 I'll point out that more than likely Elisha's life was in danger. So verbal insults was not the only issue at play here.

2 Kings 2 23 - 25:

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.

23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. On the way some boys came out of the city and made fun of him. They said to him, “Go up too, you baldhead! Go up too, you baldhead!” 24 Elisha turned around, looked at them, and put a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two mother bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces

23 [a]From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on the way, some little boys came out of the city and jeered at him: “Go away, baldy; go away, baldy!” 24 The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the children to pieces.

23 Elisha left Jericho and went up to Bethel. He was walking along the road. Some boys came out of the town. They made fun of him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here! You don’t even have any hair on your head!” 24 He turned around and looked at them. And he asked for bad things to happen to them. He did it in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods. They attacked 42 of the boys.

They made fun of him, but again, no mortal danger. Why are you putting that in the text? If it SHOULD be there and was overlooked, then isn't this part of the bible at the very least poorly written, if not plain wrong? The words are the words, they have meaning. If god used the wrong words or inspired some fallible person to write the wrong words, then never inspired any other translator of the many, many, many versions of the bible to fix it, then what authority do you have to add this detail, that Elisha was in mortal danger, or at least about to be mobbed and beaten by children, to the text? Why shouldn't someone read it exactly as purportedly inspired or even DICTATED by god? 

Eh, the bish incident really turned me off the site for a while.

First off, the fact you read it as a myth was never in question. Don't know why you think it was.

 Ludo, and many others view the text. They read it as a group of  little children mocking Elisha's lack of hair. Elisha gets offended because he's sensitive about it, throws a tantrum, commands 2 bears to come out and slaughter the little culprits.

You have a problem with term the children being used in the passage.

How do I know that Elisha was in physical harm?

I think I made it clear that it's my opinion.

You say that the Bible is poorly written. 

Where do you draw the line as to what is meant to be literal in the bible, and what isn't?

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,

    sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

So please explain how the baby is sinful in the womb if it is not inherited?

That's your job. You are claiming something I haven't claimed. Psalm 51 is traditionally claimed to have been composed by David as a confession to his god after he sinned with Bathsheba? 

 So this is Davids opinion and belief. 

I haven't seen a verse yet from the almighty himself. So get to it.

Or will you just ignore this verse and pretend it is fake?

No. The verse is real, written  by  David  human a very human being by all accounts. Yes this is David writing his own beliefs and feelings. this is not evidence that god condemned all children to death  and btw, there is no evidence what-so- ever that king David wrote anything. 

You are simply avoiding what I have asked for. show me where the OT god condemns all children to death for sin.  I don't want the opinions or beliefs of biblical characters. I want factual evidence that god himself condemned all children to death.

The verse above is evidence for the proposition.

The verse above is evidence for the proposition.

Well as much you want it to be evidence it isn't. I have explained that psalm 51 is simply the outpouring of  man feeling guilt. What it isn't,  is the evidence I asked for showing the lord god almighty himself condemning all children to death for sin.

So without your boring windbag filibustering, let us see the factual evidence that  you brag often about producing.

And you still haven't come up with the evidence that  your  lord god almighty created the whole universe in only six days. 

The bible is God's word.

Prove it

Tick tock, Tick tock, Tick tock, Tick tock

Sorry Stephen, I don't take your explanation as gospel. 

I never said God made the world in six days. 

 I assume you mean 24 hours days

Sorry Stephen, I don't take your explanation as gospel. 

What's new.

I never said God made the world in six days. 

But your bible does? And according to you >>

The bible is God's word.

 I assume you mean 24 hours days

And this is where you rewrite the bible and tell us that the bible doesn't mean days when it says "days", without providing the evidence that you proudly brag to "always produce" ,  when you never do

Well as much you want it to be evidence it isn't. I have explained that psalm 51 is simply the outpouring of  man feeling guilt. What it isn't,  is the evidence I asked for showing the lord god almighty himself condemning all children to death for sin.