I'm not convinced - why are you?

Author: SkepticalOne

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Goldtop
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@bsh1
I knew what a lion was before I saw it,
Of course, because there was a massive amount of hard evidence for the existence of lions observed by billions of people for a very long time. Not so with God. Do you actually believe someone had an idea in their head of a lion and then went out looking for one?

Unfortunately, it's a common error to compare something that has lots of evidence for it's existence to something with no evidence.
Goldtop
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@bsh1
I knew what a lion was before I saw it,
Of course, because there was a massive amount of hard evidence for the existence of lions observed by billions of people for a very long time. Not so with God. Do you actually believe someone had an idea in their head of a lion and then went out looking for one?

Unfortunately, it's a common error to compare something that has lots of evidence for it's existence to something with no evidence.
bsh1
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@Goldtop
You missed the entire point of the post. Rather, I suspect you intentionally failed to address it.
Goldtop
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@bsh1
Interestingly, your comment does nothing to refute the circularity of your argument.
You missed the entire point of the post. Rather, I suspect you intentionally failed to address it.

No matter how many times you say stuff like that, it means nothing and is only an escape for you not to defend your argument.
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@Goldtop
The irony, lol...
Goldtop
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@bsh1
Let me get this straight, when you're losing an argument (with 2 members who are saying exactly the same thing) you'll just blurt out we're missing the point and that somehow justifies what exactly?

You've been refuted, try to deal with it as best you can.
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@bsh1
Columbus's assumption that the world was circular and then going out to prove his supposition true.
Columbus was looking for a trade route, he along with most other people already knew the world was spherical, they knew this hundreds of years prior.
bsh1
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@Goldtop
It's not the accuracy of the example that makes a hypothetical work, but rather the ability of the constructed reality to demonstrate ideas.
SkepticalOne
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In order to have an idea of what God is, you're saying, we must first prove that God exists (such that we have evidence about God).
I'm not saying this. I am objecting to "god" essentially being defined into existence. You suggested a definition which assumes existence is a creation and "god" is the origin. ("Now suppose we define god as the origin of all creation").There are a lot of unverifiable assumptions in that.

Even if we drop the assumption that existence is a creation, there is still an assumption that an origin of existence necessitates a being. I mean, if we're calling the supposed origin of the universe "god", but it turns out to be something completely natural then we're not really talking about "god" as commonly understood. I pointed out an origin to existence does not necessitate a being in an attempt to avoid any equivocation.

As to Wimps and Gimps, I dont believe we are saying they definitely exist. Currently it is thought one of the two have explanatory power in relation to dark matter, but it might be neither are real and a third option is reality (dependent on future observation or maths). This is not analogous to the definition you've provided for god because, as I understand it, physicists are saying if dark matter then possibly X or Y ...tbd, and you are saying existence is created therefore X (origin) and Y (god).




 The KCA is based on the observation that all things have a cause, so why shouldn't existence? 
For that matter, why shouldn't the thing that caused existence have a cause. 🤔





Mopac
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@SkepticalOne
There is nothing spectacular about everything in the world being created. The problem is that you likely have a very specific idea of creation that is contingent on a human being. However, anything that commes into being is creation.

And on that, you seem to have a very different understanding of being if you can't see that existence necessitates being, because being is existence. The Supreme Being literally means the Supreme Existence.

You have a problem with God, which is why you do all sorts of mental gymnatlstics to work around the fact that existing is the defining characteristic of God. Not just any existence, but The Supreme Existence.

And because you have an understanding of the words and concepts involved that are not sound in the context of theology, you have a superstitious conception of God that isn't real. However, God i the Ultimate Reality, and this is not defining God into existence, this is what the concept refers to.

Your premise is faulty. Your premise "God doesn't exist" is directly at odds with what the concept actually refers to. You might as well start with the premise "Truth is falsehood", because that is the equivilence.

You think this is some trick of language, but it isn't. Atheism comes from a trick of language, not the other way around. There are thousands of years of theology that back what this concept refers to. It is not a concept that originates in the English language.


So the problem is that the atheistic worldview is irreconcilable with the theistic worldview because the atheist worldview is denying the existence of reality, which is considered to be the highest form of wickedness and delusion in the theistic worldview. There can be no peace with this at all. 

And t



Goldtop
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@bsh1
It's not the accuracy of the example that makes a hypothetical work, but rather the ability of the constructed reality to demonstrate ideas.

By all means then, I anxiously await your hypothetical work in regards to constructing God, what evidence you expect to look for and find and how it fits into reality.
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@Goldtop
As I don't believe in God's existence, I have no interest in proving his existence hypothetically or otherwise. Rather, my contributions in this thread were designed to show that the possibility of God's existence cannot be as easily disposed of as the OP believes (because I do not believe in God's nonexistence either).
Goldtop
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@bsh1
the possibility of God's existence cannot be as easily disposed of as the OP believes

Or gnomes, or the Jabberwock, or Leprechauns riding Unicorns in the Kentucky Derby. They all have exactly the same characteristics and traits as far as we can observe and no evidence of their existence. We should therefore not dispose of any notion anyone can concoct in their imaginations then, even though the possibilities and probabilities of their existence are minuscule, yet should be kept on the shelf for further review if such evidence reveals itself.

And since, people have very vivid and active imaginations, that shelf is going to be huge.

It's most likely the vast majority of whatever winds up on that shelf will indeed be disposed in favor of more realistic enterprises.
Mopac
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@Goldtop
Interpretation

"My understanding of God does not exist"

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@bsh1
Do you believe that The Ultimate Reality exists?


That is, do you believe in the realest most true existence as it really is type reality?



Outplayz
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@SkepticalOne
Well quite frankly, it has to do with evidence (one part of it). Just bc you haven't experienced anything doesn't mean no one has. I've personally experienced events that were paranormal in nature. Are they is another debate. But even if i put aside my own experiences there are many other people that report them. Even if we say 99.9% of them are incorrect for whatever reason... that fraction of a percent that actually happened would be evidence. Now, i am not of the opinion that many are lying. I would still say a large portion are mistaken/lying, there are way too many idiots in this world, but there is a portion of that percentage that would be clear minded and honest people. So to say that there is no evidence i think is dishonest. Yeah, i'll admit it's evidence no one likes, but it's evidence none the less. 

What this evidence leads to is another story. All we can do is speculate at this point. It could be something natural we aren't aware of, or it can be from another universe somehow interacting with ours, or it can be spiritual, etc. But since this question has to do with me i suppose, i would say there is a higher intelligence. I don't see why there couldn't be.. it actually is not only possible to me, but probable. Given endless time, i don't see why consciousness couldn't manifest in a different way. Why can't everything be a manifestation of this consciousness? If we have an infinite reality we run into a paradox. If we have a limited reality we run into a paradox. But if everything is a part of an undying conscousness... then, there are no infinities or limits per se... it's just all a manifestation of a consciousness. 

So... i don't know. The experiences i've had at the very least tell me there are things that we aren't aware of... separate but in addition, things that appear invisible and intelligent. Then, if i think into it... to me, this source of everything intelligence(s) makes sense more than not.  

 
Goldtop
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@Outplayz
I've personally experienced events that were paranormal in nature. But even if i put aside my own experiences there are many other people that report them. Even if we say 99.9% of them are incorrect for whatever reason... that fraction of a percent that actually happened would be evidence. Now, i am not of the opinion that many are lying. I would still say a large portion are mistaken/lying,
Your story is too far fetched to believe. It's more likely that not just a large portion 99.9% are mistaken/lying, but they are all mistaken/lying, especially when paranormal events have never been shown to exist aside from Disney movies. On top of that, a paranormal event is highly unlikely for most people yet you claim to have experienced events, more than one. Sorry, not even remotely compelling.

Outplayz
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@Goldtop
So your argument is that i'm lying and so is everyone else? If that is how you look at the world then nothing is going to be compelling. You've closed yourself off. But i must say, you thinking i'm lying is the most interesting thing i've heard from you thus far.
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@bsh1
[...] my contributions in this thread were designed to show that the possibility of God's existence cannot be as easily disposed of as the OP believes 
The OP does not believe this. The OP questions why existence of god is accepted on a quantity of evidence which is not sufficient to accept the existence of other special beings.

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@Outplayz
If someone has an experience with a gnome, is this evidence of gnomes?
Stephen
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@Goldtop
Columbus was looking for a trade route, he along with most other people already knew the world was spherical, they knew this hundreds of years prior.

Quite correct. They did. Even the ancient astronomers knew the world was round
Isaiah 40:22  He who sits above the circle of the earth,

keithprosser
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@SkepticalOne
What you (might) mean is 'if someone has an experience that they believe involves gnomes, would that be evidence of gnomes?'
I'd say it was.   Consider an explorer  who comes back from Africa and says he discovered a new species of elephant; ie he 'had en experience of a new species of elephant'.

That is evidence a previously unknown species of elephant exists... but it's not proof of it.  The question aways has to be whether the person is interpreting their experience correctly.  

As there are no such things as gods (probably!)  it is safe to assume that anyone who interprets an experience as involving a deity is mistaken.

At least that is what I do!

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@keithprosser

 Consider an explorer  who comes back from Africa and says he discovered a new species of elephant; ie he 'had en experience of a new species of elephant'.

That is evidence a previously unknown species of elephant exists...


not according to the definitions of both Evidence and Proof.


evidence
1.
  1. the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
    "the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination"
proof


  1. evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement.

Someone's word alone is not proof or evidence and neither does it make it fact unless proven with an available BODY of evidence.
SkepticalOne
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@keithprosser
What you (might) mean is 'if someone has an experience that they believe involves gnomes, would that be evidence of gnomes?'
I'd say it was.  
I asked this exact question in post #110, and I've come to a different conclusion than you. It is my opinion that this would not be evidence, at least not evidence that others can use. So, maybe it's a personal evidence, but this is meaningless in a discussion with other people as it is indistinguishable from no evidence.

Consider an explorer  who comes back from Africa and says he discovered a new species of elephant; ie he 'had en experience of a new species of elephant'.

Sure, but this won't legitimately inform a shared conception of reality until his claims can be verified and validated.

I also think claims of un undiscovered natural beast is quite different than a claim of the supernatural. The claim is bigger and the evidence is still insufficient.
Goldtop
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@Outplayz
You're not lying, just mistaken. No big deal.
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@SkepticalOne
If someone has an experience with a gnome, is this evidence of gnomes?

Technically yes, because it falls under the category of evidence as testimonial, do you know someone who has an experience with a gnome that we can evaluate?? we know a good portion of the world testifies to a Creator of kinds....however, unlike the Creator the evidence or lack thereof for any "gnomes" can easily be classified as weak (if it exists) if at all and can be debunked by examining the description and this is where you fail to see why this is not comparable to evaluating God. God not only has more testimonial evidence than any other topic, it has philosophical strength, meaning it is not an absurd proposition like that of a gnome. When evaluating testimonial evidence there are many things that can be considered besides just the claim, that is why Creationism is a superior claim/fact. 

Gnome-
"most generally refers to very small people, often men, that live in dark places, especially underground, in the depths of forests, or more recently in gardens. Most European ethnic groups have had some kind of gnome legends with local variations. Modern traditions portray gnomes as small, old men wearing pointed hats and living in forests and gardens."

So, based upon that description it is safe to say that we don't observe gnomes and they most likely do not exist as they state that they are, since they are said to live in forests and gardens and have very distinctive hats lol, there is no reason to accept or consider the proposition because it is easily debunked. See where I'm going with this? until you atheists acknowledge that evidence does in fact exist for God in the form of testimonial EVIDENCE (which is at least a portion or half of which is defined as evidence) and that based upon the definition, philosophical value, reason for belief and wide range of evidence Creationism or Theism is not comparable to a gnome and it is just immature, and lacks any real intellectual effort. Again, what qualifies as evidence (not proof) is as follows. Then we examine the evidence on a case by case basis to determine whether it is something to be considered and can be either classified as weak or strong evidence, or even dismissing the evidence. But not so with God, it takes much more effort and intellectual honesty to justifiably reject it.  

EVIDENCE-
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment:
The means by which an allegation may be proven, such as oral testimony, documents, or physical objects.
broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion.[1] This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion.
In law, rules of evidence govern the types of evidence that are admissible in a legal proceeding. Types of legal evidence include testimony, documentary evidence,[2] and physical evidence.


Goldtop
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Sorry, but testimonial evidence is an oral or written assertion offered in a court as a proof of the truth of what is being stated. It includes testimony and hearsay evidence.

Clearly, this is not evidence that can be used to validate the existence of something. Once again, you are failing at understanding the English language.


Goldtop
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the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment:
The means by which an allegation may be proven, such as oral testimony, documents, or physical objects.
broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion.[1] This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion.
In law, rules of evidence govern the types of evidence that are admissible in a legal proceeding. Types of legal evidence include testimony, documentary evidence,[2] and physical evidence.

The definitions referring to law are not used for validating the existence of something. As for the rest of the definition, you have ignored it.
Mopac
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Gnomes are not definied as being reality itself.


This is a really mindless argument. 


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@Goldtop
You don't know what evidence is and apparently can't read, and as long as you lie to yourself and others you will never be in any position to argue anything about God, and you don't and can't...and everyone knows it. See ya.