Nothing is "unbeliveable " anymore is it?

Author: Stephen

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fauxlaw
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@HistoryBuff
Washington, by profession, before politics, was a farmer, turned military, turned politician, and after that, a farmer. A successful farmer.

Muhammad, a self-proclaimed prophet [one who claims to speak for and from God], was a merchant, a seller of product produced by somebody else, such as a farmer.

I'll take the guy who actually produces something any day of the week.
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@bmdrocks21
As in there should be no government sponsored religion, probably. But should the government be run with consideration of the values (Christian values) upon which it was built? Yes.
one of those values was slavery. So no, what the values were at the time of the creation of the country has nothing to do with what our values are now. 

It still supports religion, aka not atheism.
you have the freedom to worship whatever you want. However that worship should stop at the doors of government. 

And it was allowed and practiced for most of the history of the country until things went to crap in the early 1960s.
and women weren't legally people. Things change. 

I'd say we need more religious influence in politics now. And by that, I don't mean quoting the Bible as proof of why we should do things.
That is a horrendous idea. You can believe whatever you want, but the US government needs to represent everyone. That includes christians, muslims, Atheists, everyone. Trying to make the government more christian just makes it a government that does not represent millions of it's own citizens. 

Now, as "secularization" occurs in our governments, now you have "drag queen story hour", some even pushing to allow "gender reassignment" for children, pushing the culture of casual sex which results in higher divorce rates/unwanted pregnancies/objectification of women.
blah, blah, blah, culture war bullshit. i get it. You hate change. 


HistoryBuff
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@fauxlaw
I'll take the guy who actually produces something any day of the week.
that has nothing to do with the topic. My point was that 1 is a revered religious icon, the other was just a politican. They are not directly comparable when it comes to monuments. 

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blah, blah, blah, culture war bullshit. i get it. You hate change. 

Blind change is predictably a bad thing. Ask the billions of species now extinct.
HistoryBuff
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@Greyparrot
Blind change is predictably a bad thing. Ask the billions of species now extinct.
making changes that improve people's lives is not blind change. Also, that is exactly how evolution works. We would not exist as a species with a great deal of change. 
fauxlaw
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They are not directly comparable when it comes to monuments. 
the direct comparison is that Muhammad, like it or not, was also a politician, as I demonstrated by source. And since when is the forum not a free expression of ideas? You want topic dedication, where is your debate experience?
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@fauxlaw
the direct comparison is that Muhammad, like it or not, was also a politician, as I demonstrated by source.
the critical word in your sentence is "also". IE he was a politician. But he was also the primary prophet of an entire religion. Washington is very much not a religious icon. Therefore a direct comparison between them is silly. 

You can make judgement about whether or not Washington is worthy of a statue based on his actions. However, doing the same calculation to Muhammad is pretty much impossible without directly attacking a religion. 

bmdrocks21
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@HistoryBuff
one of those values was slavery. So no, what the values were at the time of the creation of the country has nothing to do with what our values are now. 
Slavery isn’t a value of... anything really.

That is a horrendous idea. You can believe whatever you want, but the US government needs to represent everyone. That includes christians, muslims, Atheists, everyone. Trying to make the government more christian just makes it a government that does not represent millions of it's own citizens.
Why are you so offended by Christian values? We are and have always been a Christian majority country. Cultural homogeneity is a strength and diversity is a weakness, so why are you against having a unified culture?

blah, blah, blah, culture war bullshit. i get it. You hate change. 
If by “change” you mean see my beloved country become a degenerate third world shithole before my very eyes, then yes, I do hate your so called “change”.
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@bmdrocks21
Slavery isn’t a value of... anything really.
believing you have the right and obligation to enslave others is certainly a value. One which america was founded with. 

Why are you so offended by Christian values? We are and have always been a Christian majority country. Cultural homogeneity is a strength and diversity is a weakness, so why are you against having a unified culture?
Because america has never had a unified culture. The idea that you can crush people's cultural identity and subsume them into your own is a sick joke. 

If by “change” you mean see my beloved country become a degenerate third world shithole before my very eyes, then yes, I do hate your so called “change”.
it's weird that you think respecting people and protecting them and their rights are qualities of a "degenerate third world shithole". Perhaps you would be happier in a "whites only" police state where the scary brown people could be properly suppressed?
bmdrocks21
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believing you have the right and obligation to enslave others is certainly a value. One which america was founded with. 

Permitting something isn't the same as treating it as a value. The 3/5 compromise was a limit on slave state power by not counting slaves as a whole population point for determining representation in the US House.

Because america has never had a unified culture. The idea that you can crush people's cultural identity and subsume them into your own is a sick joke. 

Yeah, we did have a unified culture. We had universal appreciation of the Bill of Rights, a common language: English, among other things.

Now, if you want to look at America in a solely post-1960 lens in which everything unraveled, that's fine, I suppose.

But "crushing" cultural identity is hardly what needs to occur. If you come to another country, you leave your old country and culture behind. You become an American. Not a Columbian who just so happens to reside here because they wanted a better job. 

it's weird that you think respecting people and protecting them and their rights are qualities of a "degenerate third world shithole". Perhaps you would be happier in a "whites only" police state where the scary brown people could be properly suppressed?
Respecting gay people's rights to sue bakers repeatedly who won't accommodate their lifestyle?

Respect their right to sexualize children?

Third world shithole via letting in a constant flow of immigration from the third world and granting amnesty to illegals. From the guy who thinks we shouldn't "crush their culture", I bet you have no problem letting backwards ass peoples come here and maintaining their backwards ass culture because that is the "nice" and "tolerant" thing to do. You just love that morally superior feeling at the cost of a country, don't you?

A "whites only" police state wouldn't have brown people by the way. That is just silly. 
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@bmdrocks21
Yeah, we did have a unified culture. We had universal appreciation of the Bill of Rights, a common language: English, among other things.
oh, so all those native Americans spoke English? And the Chinese immigrants, they spoke English too right? And all the Mexicans who became Americans when the Texas joined the US. America was founded on immigration. That means people from all over the world. It has never had a unified culture. 

But "crushing" cultural identity is hardly what needs to occur. If you come to another country, you leave your old country and culture behind. You become an American. Not a Columbian who just so happens to reside here because they wanted a better job. 
That is not how anything works. People don't just forget their heritage when they move. 

Respecting gay people's rights to sue bakers repeatedly who won't accommodate their lifestyle?
yeah, absolutely. Bakers should not have the right to discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation. you don't have to like someone's life or approve of it. But if you discriminate against them, absolutely they should be able to sue you. 

Respect their right to sexualize children?
what does this even mean? 

Third world shithole via letting in a constant flow of immigration from the third world and granting amnesty to illegals. From the guy who thinks we shouldn't "crush their culture", I bet you have no problem letting backwards ass peoples come here and maintaining their backwards ass culture because that is the "nice" and "tolerant" thing to do. You just love that morally superior feeling at the cost of a country, don't you?
you forgot to try to hide the racism.

A "whites only" police state wouldn't have brown people by the way. That is just silly. 
well you need laborers to work and die for you. that is what america was founded on. Ruled by the whites with lots of people of color for labor. 


bmdrocks21
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oh, so all those native Americans spoke English? And the Chinese immigrants, they spoke English too right? And all the Mexicans who became Americans when the Texas joined the US. America was founded on immigration. That means people from all over the world. It has never had a unified culture. 

Back before the 1965 Hart-Celler Act made American citizenship nothing more than a piece of paper, yes we did.

And while the English language wasn't forced on people, we didn't throw welfare money at immigrants who made little money because they didn't learn the language. The de facto official language has always been English.

And Native Americans weren't ever Americans. They have their own tribes and reservations and are separate from America.


That is not how anything works. People don't just forget their heritage when they move. 

That is an issue. I agree, first generation immigrants can never fully assimilate into another culture. But you should design citizenship and public schooling to be based on American values such as the aforementioned Bill of Rights, ensuring they have English proficiency, patriotism, etc.

yeah, absolutely. Bakers should not have the right to discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation. you don't have to like someone's life or approve of it. But if you discriminate against them, absolutely they should be able to sue you. 

You have absolutely no right to someone else's labor. You cannot force Christian bakers to make a gay wedding cake. They were even accommodating to the gay couple. They offered to make a cake without putting two grooms on top, but that just wasn't even for them. They want to force acceptance on other people. So much for it just being about "what consenting adults do behind closed doors", huh?

what does this even mean? 

Forcing small children to have gay and transgender ideals taught to them in schools. That "sexualizing" children.

you forgot to try to hide the racism.

No, I'm just not going to mince words with you. Some cultures are absolutely savage and disgusting and have no place being in America. If you're perfectly fine with people coming into the country who believe in Sharia Law, and you don't want to force assimilation, then it is obvious that you have no care for the future of America. You want un-unified subcultures that hate each other, living in close proximity, and pretend things will work out jusssst fine.

well you need laborers to work and die for you. that is what america was founded on. Ruled by the whites with lots of people of color for labor. 

Slavery was a mistake. It held the US economy back and was a partial cause of our bloodiest war.

And the Irish were treated worse than slaves, so don't give me any of that crap.
HistoryBuff
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@bmdrocks21
And while the English language wasn't forced on people, we didn't throw welfare money at immigrants who made little money because they didn't learn the language. The de facto official language has always been English.
so you acknowledge that there were millions of americans who didn't speak english as their primary language, but still insist that america has always had a unified culture? how are you getting your brain to believe those 2 completely contrary things?

And Native Americans weren't ever Americans. They have their own tribes and reservations and are separate from America.
are you suggesting native Americans are not american citizens?

That is an issue. I agree, first generation immigrants can never fully assimilate into another culture. But you should design citizenship and public schooling to be based on American values such as the aforementioned Bill of Rights, ensuring they have English proficiency, patriotism, etc.
again, you appear to be saying that the US government should make it official policy to destroy the culture of anyone who moves to the US. That is not going to happen. 

You have absolutely no right to someone else's labor. You cannot force Christian bakers to make a gay wedding cake.
You are looking at it backwards. It isn't about whether the gay couple had a right to the cake, it is about whether the cake shop has the right to refuse service based on sexual orientation, which they should not. We wouldn't allow a shop to refuse to serve black people. Similarly, we should not allow a shop to discriminate against gay people. 

They want to force acceptance on other people. So much for it just being about "what consenting adults do behind closed doors", huh?
baking a cake does not mean you accept their lifestyle. It means you made a cake, exactly like you would for any other person on any other day. No one asked them to go to the wedding. That couple asked a store to do exactly what they would do for any other person. They refused based on bigotry. They should be legally liable for that. 

Forcing small children to have gay and transgender ideals taught to them in schools. That "sexualizing" children.
oh i see. So teaching children about reality that you don't like is wrong. gotcha. 

No, I'm just not going to mince words with you. Some cultures are absolutely savage and disgusting and have no place being in America.
again, your racism is super blatant right now. 

Slavery was a mistake. It held the US economy back and was a partial cause of our bloodiest war.

And the Irish were treated worse than slaves, so don't give me any of that crap.
agreed. The US was founded on racial discrimination. That includes black people as well as irish people. But we are trying to grow and change from that past. Change was needed and it still is. Your argument seems to be that it was bad in the past, but we changed. So now we should stop changing. But change doesn't ever stop. You can stand in the way for awhile, but ultimately it is coming.