I am responsible..............

Author: sadolite

Posts

Total: 210
#121
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Crocodile
how does it protect others?  if the material is porous how does it stop the virus from passing through?  masks don't fit tight all the way around the face and air escapes out the sides, top and bottom as well.  Have you seen the guys face who is wearing a surgical type mask while sanding sheet rock?  I'm not seeing any real effectiveness of these masks.  If it can escape out the top, sides, bottom and that doctor contracted it from getting it in his eyes (he was wearing a mask etc, thinks that's the only way he could have gotten it) then how useful are masks really?
#122
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
apparently it reduces the transmission travel length of particles from like around 6 feet to about 2 feet.

#123
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,167
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@Greyparrot
@TheDredPriateRoberts
If masks work require everyone to wear one and reopen everything. Pretty good compromise imo
#124
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
So since we are supposed to be 6 feet apart,  guess masks are very situational.   I'm not a close talker.   It all sounds uncertain enough that they shouldn't be violating rights over it. 
#125
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@ILikePie5
In some areas they threaten businesses with fines if they let people in without masks, seems easy enough to reopen most businesses. 
#126
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,167
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
In some areas they threaten businesses with fines if they let people in without masks, seems easy enough to reopen most businesses. 
If the business owner wants masks, that’s up to them.  I’ll gladly wear it to go to my favorite restaurant. Can’t keep stuff locked down though. 
#127
Crocodile
Crocodile's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 1,156
3
4
10
Crocodile's avatar
Crocodile
3
4
10
Like Pie said, I don't give a shit if they're effective. It helps buisnesses open sooner
Topic's author
#128
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
A mask that doesn't filter Corna virus doesn't filter Corna virus., Scientific fact ask any mask manufacturer. They will never make the claim that it in anyway filters the virus. I don' t give a shit what politicians say.
#129
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
that's what I'm saying, they could have made businesses only cater to those wearing masks and reopened many weeks ago.

help me understand though

first we had to save masks to protect healthcare workers, there was a shortage etc right?

now we wear masks to protect others?

is it just me or is that totally 2 opposite statements?
#130
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@sadolite
I know, I was trying to see if they could reach their conclusion on their own.
#131
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@sadolite
Just to be clear, I am against mandatory masks and am a left-wing variant of what 'libertarian' is. If you don't want to wear your mask and are very sure you don't have the virus, in a secluded area where all others consent to the risk, I kind of say 'well, whatever this is natural selection if you're right or wrong'. Though, if you go home and infect others who didn't consent to that risk, you're then an asshole.

I agree with you that forcing everyone to wear the mask no matter what situation is there outdoors (even if there's only one person far away from them on the other side of a street) is frankly ridiculous. Then again, there are people who spit as they walk along or whatever and hypothetically someone could fall into/onto that later so I understand both sides here, I just personally think walking slower and being careful would avoid the falling scenario.

In all seriousness, if you are trying to tell me that masks don't stop the spread, that's because some people wear it with their nose poking out and also because of insufficient hand-washing etc, meaning their hands are spreading it to places they touch while having left their home, so on and so forth. The masks do very blatantly prevent your spit or phlegm going onto other surfaces, including other people's pores and skin. This is not some refutable, hypothetical thing, it's so utterly blatant that I'm confused how it's a 'theory' and not a solid fact in some people's eyes. 
Topic's author
#132
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@RationalMadman
Masks not designed to filter viruses don't filter viruses. Scientific fact. Best I can figure is that you have be indoctrinated to believe the virus is all contained in the spit and that if you block all the spit you are blocking the virus.  The virus is also airborne. When you breath out and have Corna virus you exhale Corna virus. I believe what mask manufacturers say. They  have to take both legal and personal responsibility for giving bad information. Politicians and so called health experts paid by the govt have no skin in the game and nothing to loose by giving false or erroneous information. Mask manufactures in no way support , confirm or endorse  anything the govt says about wearing masks that don't filter corna virus. I believe them . I will repeat,  When a mask manufactures says their mask will neither protect me from or Filter Corna virus I believe them. You can believe politicians and paid govt officials who have no skin in the game if you want, they will suffer no personal liability if they are wrong. Mask manufactures will.
#133
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@sadolite
They filter the spit. Do you understand?
Topic's author
#134
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@RationalMadman
Ya I understand it stops spit, it doesn't filter the virus.
#135
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@sadolite
When they say a Virus is airborne, they dont truly mean that, they mean that spit particles via the air can spread it. When a virus is declared waterborne, it simply means that it has a much lower capacity to thrive in tiny amounts of spit but has just as much potency when in large bodies of water.
Topic's author
#136
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
-->
@RationalMadman
Like I said earlier, I believe the mask manufactures. The masks that are not designed to filter corna virus don't filter corna virus. Go ahead and call me a science denier all you want.  It wont change the fact that masks not designed to filter corna virus wont filter it. And yes the govt cant point a gun to my head and make me wear a mask. But that doesn't change the fact that I am entitled to due process under the law that I am a threat to public safety  either.
Topic's author
#137
sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,173
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
The history lesson to be learned here which I and about 12 other people in the world since the beginning of time  have learned is this. Never give power to govt that allows them to point guns at peoples heads and force them to do anything without probable cause the due process of law.
#138
Castin
Castin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,239
3
2
7
Castin's avatar
Castin
3
2
7
Nothing we can wear is going to be 100% effective, but the point for me is that if a mask can mitigate the danger at all, it's worth it. It's literally better than nothing.

#139
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Castin
the best mitigation is staying home right?  it's much better than a mask ever could be.  I'm sure people are only making necessary trips because they don't want to put others in danger, yeah right.
#140
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
See this is the problem when the government draws hard lines in the sand regarding risk. It's completely arbitrary where the government draws the line from total freedom to total lockdown. 
#141
Death23
Death23's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 618
3
4
7
Death23's avatar
Death23
3
4
7
-->
@sadolite
There exists credible scientific evidence that masks are effective at reducing the spread of COVID-19. Whether or not the masks filter the virus or are designed to isn't relevant.
#142
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
@Crocodile
seen similar posted up, tbh it makes sense and I haven't been able to find anything to contradict it

"I don’t really know WHY OSHA hasn’t come forward and stopped the nonsense BUT I want to cover 3 things

• N95 masks and masks with exhale ports

• surgical masks

• filter or cloth masks

Okay, so upon further inspection, OSHA says some masks are okay and not okay in certain situations.

If you’re working with fumes and aerosol chemicals and you give your employees the wrong masks and they get sick, you can be sued.

• N95 masks: are designed for CONTAMINATED environments. That means when you exhale through N95 the design is that you are exhaling into contamination. The exhale from N95 masks are vented to breath straight out without filtration. They don’t filter the air on the way out. They don’t need to.

Conclusion: if you’re in Target and the guy with Covid has a N95 mask, his covid breath is unfiltered being exhaled into Target (because it was designed for already contaminated environments, it’s not filtering your air on the way out).

• Surgical Mask: these masks were designed and approved for STERILE environments. The amount of particles and contaminants in the outside and indoor environments where people are CLOGGING these masks very, VERY quickly. The moisture from your breath combined with the clogged mask will render it “useless” IF you come in contact with Covid and your mask traps it, YOU become a walking virus dispenser. Everytime you put your mask on you are breathing the germs from EVERYWHERE you went. They should be changed or thrown out every “20-30 minutes in a non sterile environment.”

• Cloth masks: I can’t even believe I’m having to explain this, but here it goes. Today, three people pointed to their masks as they walked by me entering Lowe’s. They said “ya gotta wear your mask BRO” I said very clearly “those masks don’t work bro, in fact they MAKE you sicker” they “pshh’d” me. By now hopefully you all know CLOTH masks do not filter anything. You mean the American flag one my aunt made? Yes. The one with sunflowers that looks so cute? Yes. The bandanna, the cut up t-shirt, the scarf ALL of them offer NO FILTERING whatsoever. As you exhale, you are ridding your lungs of contaminants and carbon dioxide. Cloth masks trap this carbon dioxide the best. It actually risks your health, rather than protect it. The moisture caught in these masks can become mildew ridden over night. Dry coughing, enhanced allergies, sore throat are all symptoms of a micro-mold in your mask.

-Ultimate Answer:

*N95 blows the virus into the air from a contaminated person.

*The surgical mask is not designed for the outside world and will not filter the virus upon inhaling through it. It’s filtration works on the exhale, (Like a vacuum bag, it only works one way) but likely stops after 20 minutes, rendering it useless outside of a STERILE ENVIRONMENT (correct Becky, they don’t work in a bar, not even a little bit).

*Cloth masks are WORSE than none. It’s equivalent to using a chain link fence to stop mosquitos.

The CDC wants us to keep wearing masks. The masks don’t work. They’re being used to provide false comfort and push forward a specific agenda. For the love of God, research each mask’s designed use and purpose, I bet you will find NONE are used in the way of “viral defense.”"

credit to original creator, who ever that is.



#143
Crocodile
Crocodile's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 1,156
3
4
10
Crocodile's avatar
Crocodile
3
4
10
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
I really don't care if they work.

CDC says if we wear them, we'll reopen.


I'll wear them.
#144
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@Crocodile
I really don't care if they work.

CDC says if we wear them, we'll reopen.


I'll wear them.
that's your choice, let's keep it that way.


#145
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@sadolite
The masks that are not designed to filter corna virus don't filter corna virus. Go ahead and call me a science denier all you want. 
it goes past science denier at this point because you have already acknowledged the science. IE coronavirus is carried is saliva, masks stop saliva. You have acknowledged both of those points. The thing you are denying is the last step of connecting those 2 facts. IE if coronavirus is in your spit and mask stops your spit, then it stops coronavirus spread (or at least significantly hinders it). 

for some reason you acknowledge the critical points, but then deny the obvious conclusion of those points. Is it willfully ignoring reality or can you honestly not connect the dots?

#146
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
a damp cloth won't absorb as much as a dry cloth, your breath is human and whatever kind of mask you wear absorbs some of that humidity....up to a saturation point.
anyway, according to the fda

If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose. Surgical masks may also help reduce exposure of your saliva and respiratory secretions to others.
While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face.

Surgical masks are not intended to be used more than once. (and yet they are used again many, many times)

I've also read (but I'll have to look deeper) that they haven't recovered vial virus from the air in covid positive patient rooms.  Which is extremely interesting.  If not enough is airborne in doors from regular breathing and talking that's pretty significant.  Certainly anyone coughing, sneezing or suspected of being sick definitely needs to take all precautions.





#147
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
a damp cloth won't absorb as much as a dry cloth, your breath is human and whatever kind of mask you wear absorbs some of that humidity....up to a saturation point.
anyway, according to the fda
that seems to be an argument for swapping out your mask after use. It is in no way an argument against wearing a mask. 

I've also read (but I'll have to look deeper) that they haven't recovered vial virus from the air in covid positive patient rooms.  Which is extremely interesting. 
I haven't been arguing that it can remain airborne. The science is still unclear on that. The particles of saliva need to be extremely small for them to remain in the air. It is unclear if they can. But it is quite clear than when people speak, cough, sneeze or even breath heavily they expel saliva from their mouth. This will carry coronavirus if it lands on someone or lands on an object that someone then touches. 

This is why everyone needs to wear a mask. Asymptomatic people can carry and spread the virus. Any time they talk to someone, or even breath they could potential spray some saliva that could infect people. Since we can't possibly test everyone all the time, there is no way to know for certain if you are infected or not. So the best way to get the virus under control is for everyone to wear masks and social distance. The longer people refuse to take these precautions, the longer the pandemic lasts. 
#148
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
that seems to be an argument for swapping out your mask after use. It is in no way an argument against wearing a mask. 
I don't know, how long does it take before the mask becomes ineffective?  swapping it out makes sense for sure, but for how long?  how long are they designed to be worn?
So the best way to get the virus under control is for everyone to wear masks and social distance.
social distance is #1, unless you want to say just stay home.

here's the thing, you'd think there would be better info about asymptomatic people and their ability to spread or not right?  this isn't new science
2009 flu

The minimal data that does exist, Bogoch said, does point to relatively uncommon transmission.
For those few studies, the asymptomatic transmission rate ranged from 0% to 2.2%, while the symptomatic transmission rate ranged from 0.8% to 15.4%.
“From our research we estimate that asymptomatic people transmit about 40% less than symptomatic people,” she said, noting that could be because those people are infectious for a shorter period of time and because they produce fewer infectious respiratory droplets because they’re not coughing or sneezing.

In summary, all the 455 contacts were excluded from SARS-CoV-2 infection and we conclude that the infectivity of some asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers might be weak.

you can get flu year round also, so while it's still possible I don't think the risk and effectiveness of masks is worth a rights violation.


#149
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@TheDredPriateRoberts
I don't know, how long does it take before the mask becomes ineffective?  swapping it out makes sense for sure, but for how long?  how long are they designed to be worn?
I don't know the answer to that. There is certainly room for discussion about what kinds of masks should be worn, how often they should be swapped etc. But problem number 1 is convincing people that wearing a mask isn't some attack on your freedom, it is an attempt to save your (and everyone else's) life. 

social distance is #1, unless you want to say just stay home.
agreed. That is also critically important. I'd say it is more important than the mask, but both are important. 

here's the thing, you'd think there would be better info about asymptomatic people and their ability to spread or not right?  this isn't new science
2009 flu
Different viruses have different characteristics. but comparing it to the flu isn't accurate. The flu and a corona virus are quite different. Things that are true for the flu are not necessarily remotely accurate to corona-virus. 

In summary, all the 455 contacts were excluded from SARS-CoV-2 infection and we conclude that the infectivity of some asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers might be weak.
This is one study carried out months ago apparently in china which I don't trust to report information accurately. There have been lots of reports of them suppressing information about coronavirus. More recent studies (that I have already linked) showed between 20-40% of cases could be asymptomatic transmitters. 

you can get flu year round also,
Covid is like 10-30 times more deadly than the flu. Comparing them is kind of silly. 

so while it's still possible I don't think the risk and effectiveness of masks is worth a rights violation.
You have already acknowledged that masks are effective. IE saliva carries corona, and masks stop saliva. So that part doesn't appear to be in question.

And there is no "rights violation" as far as i can tell. Society already has lots of requirements that we live with every day. You can't walk around naked. You have to wear a seat belt in a car. You have to wear a helmet to ride a bike. You can't drink on the side walk. etc. This is no different. Those rules exist because we, as a society, have decided that they are necessary to protect people. Well now we need masks to protect people. You can whine about it all you want, but there is violation of rights. 
#150
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
I don't know the answer to that. There is certainly room for discussion about what kinds of masks should be worn, how often they should be swapped etc. But problem number 1 is convincing people that wearing a mask isn't some attack on your freedom, it is an attempt to save your (and everyone else's) life. 
helping people make an informed choice is the best way of convincing people, not demanding, shaming, forcing etc
 More recent studies (that I have already linked) showed between 20-40% of cases could be asymptomatic transmitters. 
those where studies, they didn't actually study people or anything, it was assumptions.
Covid is like 10-30 times more deadly than the flu. Comparing them is kind of silly. 
then you clearly missed the point, there's always a risk as I said, there always will be, just like flu, I'm not sure how else to explain it to you.
IE saliva carries corona, and masks stop saliva.
reduces =/= stop
You can't walk around naked.
tell that to nudist and nude beach goers
Newsflash, ladies: it’s legal to go topless in New York State.
Women in six U.S. states are now effectively allowed to be topless in public, according to a new ruling by the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. ... The court's ruling determined the law was based on "negative stereotypes depicting women's breasts, but not men's breasts, as sex objects."Sep 20, 2019

anyway, it is an infringement on rights to be forced to wear a mask, they and you try to justify it, even if it is justified it's still and infringement right?
have decided that they are necessary to protect people.
I want proof not "maybe" "might" and assumptions, just the facts.