RELIGION POLL #2: Did Jesus exist?

Author: MisterChris
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#31
wlowsi9
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@fauxlaw
I don't know where Jesus lives, which is not evidence that he does not [have a domicile, or that he lives]

I detect Jesus Christ by faith, an operable sense in every respect as the other five we depend upon, and similar to the senses other animals have, such as echo location and magnetic field, neither of which appear to be among the set humans demonstrate. It's just that some have no awareness of faith as a sense, much like some lack vision, or smell. Demonstrate that you have the sense of smell. By empiric proof.

Well, if he is still alive and, presumably has been alive since the alleged resurrection, it is rather odd that the "faith sense" that you possess cannot detect the whereabouts of Christ. If your special sense (I don't have it since I am one of those inferior heathen underlings) can detect so much I am sure that it is far better than the sonar of bats and infinitely better than GPS, I'm sure that you could track him down to say, 461 Ocean Boulevard. Have you tried knocking on the door?

It's not such an outlandish guess as you may think. After all, Eric Clapton lived there and everyone called him God, many still do. And we all know how he sacrificed his only son; sure it was off the 14th floor of an apartment building instead of a cruddy cave with a stone in front of it, but you get the drift.

Anyway, I digress. I'm sure that the sixth sense that you euphemistacally call faith is what most of us call "delusion". It's in the dictionary you know:

delusional :
/dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
"characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder."

And let's face it. Believing that Jesus is alive is idiosyncratic and contradicted by reality or rational argument, to say the least.

#32
fauxlaw
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@wlowsi9
And let's face it. Believing that Jesus is alive is idiosyncratic and contradicted by reality or rational argument, to say the least.
Your definition notwithstanding, I can just as easily challenge you to demonstrate that your skepticism has merit, and that you can demonstrate by empiric evidence that Christ does not exist. Go ahead; show me.
#33
Barney
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@MisterChris
While imperfect, the historical record suggests he indeed lived.

Granted, while he became the Christian Messiah, he was not the Jewish Messiah.
#34
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@BrotherDThomas
Having fun with premature efactulation? I've read Josephus, thank you, and have read it in Greek, his natural tongue, as it was for most scholars of the first century.
#35
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@fauxlaw
Does a god exist or not?...Same old argument and you know the score, but will not come clean.....I cannot prove no god, as you cannot prove a god....A sort of rational absurdity....or absurdly rational.

But at least I'm prepared to be honest.
#36
BrotherDThomas
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Fauxlaw,

YOUR WIMPY RUNAWAY QUOTE:  "Having fun with premature efactulation? I've read Josephus, thank you, and have read it in Greek, his natural tongue, as it was for most scholars of the first century."

I don't care if you read about Josephus in Japanese, understood?  You are still RUNNING AWAY, as usual, to ALL parts of my post #30, why do you continue to perform this cowardly act?  Do you think that you get points from Jesus by not accepting ALL of His historicity? 

1.  Is it embarrassing that Jesus, as the God of man, earth, and the universe, was NOT mentioned outside of the Bible until 64 years subsequent to His death on the cross? Therefore, what does that truly tell us about His assumed existence in the first place, even though Josephus just mentions a "Jesus character" in his Antiquities and does not mention Him as God!

2.  Are you also embarrassed about other historians that mention Jesus, AND DO NOT MENTION THAT HE WAS GOD, in their writings that are nothing but hearsay accounts?

3.  Are you embarrassed that those "other gods" had their writings written down as well in competing with Jesus, therefore, who is the correct god to worship in the pagan Bronze, Iron, and Middle Ages?


As a TRUE Christian don't RUN AWAY from the embarrassing historicity of Jesus as God outside of the Bible, and accept that more so than not, He did not exist in this manner whatsoever, period!  Like I said, we want and need Jesus as God to exist, therefore in our minds He does, regardless of there being no substantial evidence in history that He did. 2+2=4.

Now, are you going to RUN AWAY again to the points made above, or defend the faith like Jesus wants you too? (Titus 1:9)  Jesus will watch your next move in His name!!!  (Hebrews 4:13)




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#37
BrotherDThomas
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@Barney


Ragnar,

YOUR QUOTE: "While imperfect, the historical record suggests he indeed lived."

How can the term "imperfect"  and "suggests" even be used in the assumed existence of the God of man, the earth,  and the universe?!!!  You admit that you are on thin ice, and where the Jesus character is mentioned within embarrassing documents after His death, it is of hearsay accountings and up to hundreds of years subsequent to His alleged existence. Reread my Neil Armstrong analogy in my post #30 above.  Furthermore, all of these hearsay accountings does NOT mention that Jesus was in fact Yahweh God incarnate, but just a plain man instead.


YOUR QUOTE: "Granted, while he became the Christian Messiah, he was not the Jewish Messiah."

How does one try and explain away that in the Old Testament the Jews had their specific Hebrew God named Yahweh, a brutal serial killer of His creation, and that later on, the Christians, who were also ONLY Jews, stole Yahweh as their God and named Him Jesus.  Therefore, logic 101 precludes that Jesus is held culpable as well for being a brutal serial killer since He was Yahweh God incarnate. This is barring the fact that Jesus' historicity as God of the universe outside of the Bible is eerily silent, and when it does appear, it starts at 64 years later in Josephus' Antiquities to hundreds of years later subsequent to His alleged death upon the cross.  These very weak and factual propositions is how the God of the earth, man, and universe is represented, and that others are to accept them as a perceived premise to worship Jesus as God Huh?  :(

This is why I state that even though Jesus as God DID NOT exist, and if He did, He would be a brutal serial killer in a catch-22 sense, which is even more embarrassing to his perceived ever loving and forgiving MO,  we still need Him to exist as God nonetheless because as a TRUE Christian like myself, we have too much time involved in the faith to throw it away, therefore we have to masturbate our minds into feeling good that Jesus is God and just don't bring forth His totally embarrassing empty existence outside of the JUDEO-Christian Bible.  

Seriously, if we have to accept a talking serpent in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1), a talking Donkey (Numbers 22:21-29), and a talking burning bush (Exodus 3:4), and  without any insidious anachronistic spin, then it is not that farfetched to accept that Jesus is not God as explicitly shown more so than not, but we say He is nonetheless.  



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#38
Mediumone
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@fauxlaw
Your definition notwithstanding, I can just as easily challenge you to demonstrate that your skepticism has merit, and that you can demonstrate by empiric evidence that Christ does not exist. Go ahead; show me.
It is not "my" definition; it is from the Oxford dictionary and stands as being correct.
Of course I, nor anybody else can disprove the existence of something that has not been proven in the first place. That in no way gives anybody the benefit of the doubt to claim that Christ exists any more than any other absurd claim such as the existence of elephants with wings.

I detect Jesus Christ by faith, an operable sense in every respect as the other five we depend upon
Wrong. Faith is not a sense. 
Faith:
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

The so-called "sense" that you depend upon is commonly called delusion.

If you firmly believe that Christ is alive, you are clearly deluded.
#39
Intelligence_06
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Jesus exists in the bible, the bible exists, thus Jesus exists. Don't call this a fallacy, I bear no need of proving that Jesus physically have existed.

I lean towards the rear when I was asked to present proof of why Jesus physically existed back in the olden days, but what I know is that Jesus exists regardless of what it is. Does Ironman or Batman exist so I can be saved by them? No. However, they are concepts. I suppose anything is real, well maybe not physically.


#40
Intelligence_06
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Does Jesus exist as a person? Maybe, well, yes. I have met someone named Jesus and regardless, you can name anything "Jesus" and call it a win.
#41
fauxlaw
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@Mediumone
There are animals endowed with senses of echo location, earth's magnetic field, other objects magnetic fields, sense of electrical current in other animals, photoreceptors sensitive to patterns to which other animals are blind, cavitation [look it up], sensation of temperature difference under skin or hide to identify blood vessels, infrared vision, sense of ground vibration through feet to triangulate origin of sound, sensation of earth's magnetic field to specifically locate north. All these different animals also share our five senses. And you think we are limited to our five? That's delusional.
#42
RoderickSpode
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@Mediumone
Why would someone be deluded?
#43
Mediumone
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@RoderickSpode
Why would someone be deluded?
For many reasons and, in fact we all suffer delusions from time to time, not necessarily through mental deficiency but, for example, through overwhelming pressure.

I am talking more specifically here about delusion in the context of religious belief. Many people will claim to be religious but very few actually believe there is a God or for that matter, a son of God who was resurrected.

Someone who firmly believes there is a God or any other spiritual being is deluded.

delusional :
/dɪˈluːʒ(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
"characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder."

Believing that there is a God or that Jesus is alive is idiosyncratic and contradicted by reality or rational argument, to say the least.

I'm an atheist and I am not immune from being deluded, especially after a few drinks, sad to say.

But what I am saying is that someone who firmly believes in God is deluded a good deal of the time and many day to day decisions are influenced by his or her delusional state. For example, Steve Jobs was deluded to the extent that a multitude of spiritual remedies would cure his cancer. Experts agree that, had Jobs not shunned conventional medicine, he would have lived a lot longer.

#44
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@Mediumone
I'm a little confused as to why you used an atheist example of delusion.

You mentioned firm belief as a requirement for being delusional as far as belief in God. Is a loose, casual, or more agnostic belief delusional? But maybe less delusional? Or not at all?

What is the issue with "firm belief"? Why would it be, if it's the case, worse than an agnostic take? A person who says "I'm not sure". More specifically, not sure if Jesus exists at this moment being the Son of God.


#45
BrotherDThomas
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FAUXLAW,

Unfortunately for your continued weak reputation upon this forum, myself and the membership have seen you once again runaway from your Christianity in my posts numbers 30 and 36 that were specifically directed to you.  Whats new? Nothing.

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4451-religion-poll-2-did-jesus-exist?page=2&post_number=30

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/4451-religion-poll-2-did-jesus-exist?page=2&post_number=36


Fauxlaw, you could have least "tried" to respond to those damn facts about our faith, but you didn't have the wherewithal to do so. How sad, especially since Jesus said to Defend the Faith, but instead, you ran away from it and are still in hiding.

"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)

As if your embarrassment isn’t bad enough in front of the membership for being known as a runaway from the Christian faith, you also have to contend with Jesus watching you perform this insidious act:  “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”  (Hebrews 4:13)

Do you smell sulfur yet?  You will upon your earthly demise.


NEXT?


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#46
BrotherDThomas
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@Intelligence_06


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Intelligence_06,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE: "Jesus exists in the bible, the bible exists, thus Jesus exists. "

Your comical syllogism therefore proves without a doubt to you, that Harry Potter exists!

Harry Potter exists in the book Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, this said book exists, thus Harry Potter exists!

Thanks for this update into logical thinking, NOT!  :(


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#47
ludofl3x
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@fauxlaw
There are animals endowed with senses of echo location, earth's magnetic field, other objects magnetic fields, sense of electrical current in other animals, photoreceptors sensitive to patterns to which other animals are blind, cavitation [look it up], sensation of temperature difference under skin or hide to identify blood vessels, infrared vision, sense of ground vibration through feet to triangulate origin of sound, sensation of earth's magnetic field to specifically locate north. All these different animals also share our five senses. And you think we are limited to our five? That's delusional.
Most of these, basically all of them except the magnetic field one, are essentially the standard five senses. Echo location is basically hearing.  Infrared vision is simply a form of vision, just a different spectrum. Sense of ground vibration is simply a highly sensitive sense of touch. Ability to see patterns certain animals don't isn't a special sense either, it's just vision. 

This also misses that these are simply responses to measurable stimuli (this is how we know these animals can do things like sense an oncoming predator through ground vibration, or see in the dark). We can test for the stimuli, we can study the anatomy and discern how it works, and in many, MANY cases we can artificially recreate these abilities (because these are again, just the five senses) and leverage them into our technology like sonar. This does not advance any argument that there are more than the five traditional senses. 
#48
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@BrotherDThomas
Yes.

Harry Potter exists as a fictional character. Jesus exists at least as a virtual leader. I have no proof of that Jesus walked on the soul of Earth, but he exists in some way.
#49
fauxlaw
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@ludofl3x
Respectfully, that's a load of crap.
You ignore that these animals have these direct senses naturally, and, no, echo location is not simply hearing. Our hearing is imprecise. We can generally sense gross directional capability. Very gross. In animals with the capability, they sense, without sight, exact location, typically of prey. That's very different from our hearing. I note you do not equate the sense of blood vessels beneath skin and animal hide. To what do you attribute that as a human sense, other than by our tech. Yes, ourt technology allows us to duplicate many of these natural senses other animals have, but it is our artificial sensors, not our natural ones, doing the sensing. We interpret the data and that's the end of it. We do not personally sense the world as other animals have extended natural senses but by our natural five. Plus faith, but one must know how faith operates to understand its sensation. You obviously have never tried. It has rules, and they must be followed. Your histrionics about delusion notwithstanding.
#50
ludofl3x
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@fauxlaw
 We can generally sense gross directional capability. Very gross. In animals with the capability, they sense, without sight, exact location, typically of prey. That's very different from our hearing.
But it is in fact still HEARING. It's just doing so more sensitively and with greater precision than we do. A dog's sense of smell isn't a sixth sense because it's better than ours. It's just smell. 

I note you do not equate the sense of blood vessels beneath skin and animal hide. To what do you attribute that as a human sense, other than by our tech.

Because I'm not really clear on what you're referring to. Can you clarify? The sense of blood vessels beneath skin, do you mean like a predator's natural predilection to grab by the neck?

Yes, ourt technology allows us to duplicate many of these natural senses other animals have, but it is our artificial sensors, not our natural ones, doing the sensing. We interpret the data and that's the end of it. We do not personally sense the world as other animals have extended natural senses but by our natural five.
My point with the technology is we can scientifically prove how echo location works, then duplicate it. There's no analogue to a 'sixth sense' as you seem to infer. There's no data to interpret, no verifiable number you can use for a sixth sense, is there? Animals do not have 'extended' or 'additional' senses as you've laid out, they're simply the same senses with different levels of sensitivity. An eagle doesn't 'sixth sense' a mouse 1000 feet below because his eyes can see one. He simply sees it, and we can't, but that doesn't mean he's got 'extended vision.' It's just VISION. 

Plus faith, but one must know how faith operates to understand its sensation. You obviously have never tried. It has rules, and they must be followed. 
Please lay out the rules and we can experiment in understanding this sensation. If you can do it, I should be able to replicate it, right? Faith isn't a sense. It's just a hope. I've said nothing at all about delusion. 
#51
fauxlaw
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@ludofl3x
Because I'm not really clear on what you're referring to. Can you clarify? The sense of blood vessels beneath skin, do you mean like a predator's natural predilection to grab by the neck?
Ah, so the science escapes you? No, it is not merely instinct that a predator capable of doing so goes for the neck. As it happens, the vampire bat can sense the location of blood vessels anywhere in the body of a victim. It is merely fictitious legend that a bat turned humanoid vampire always goes for the neck of a victim. Look it all up; I readily tire of doing it for you.

My point with the technology ....
Yeah, I already read your point, which still ignores that even with our tech, we do not do the sensing, which is key to making use of senses, those that we have. We merely interpret the data produced by artificial sensors, but I repeat myself. How many more times is that necessary?

Please lay out the rules 
Ah, these rules escape you, too? Too bad. I've laid them out before, in this Forum, and in Debate. Go find them. I'm not, as stated, into continuous repetition. I so tire of lazy research.

A hint: start by reading the Holy Bible, Epistle to the Hebrews. The whole bloody epistle, all chapters. Reading the entire book is revealing. Yeah, the whole bloody thing.. I've done it in three languages, so don't tell me its exhaustive. Then, consult the Book of Mormon, Alma 32 - 35, and Moroni, 10, the entire chapters as noted for both books. That will give you a turn of the spade in the earth you must dig to understand what faith is, and how wrong your allegations are concerning it. Look, I've spent over 60 years in its practice. You think this is an over-night transition? Pathetic.
#52
ludofl3x
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@fauxlaw
 As it happens, the vampire bat can sense the location of blood vessels anywhere in the body of a victim. It is merely fictitious legend that a bat turned humanoid vampire always goes for the neck of a victim. Look it all up; I readily tire of doing it for you.
It wasn't the science that escaped me, it was your charcterization. Turns out bats have infrared sensors in their lips, which function like pain receptor cells in our tongues that do things like sense hot peppers and hot temperatures. So again, just a different version of the same five senses, touch. Nothing supernatural. Listen, there's no reason to be such an asshole, I'm just saying you've done nothing to demonstrate anything beyond the five senses in any animal, humans included. 

Yeah, I already read your point, which still ignores that even with our tech, we do not do the sensing, which is key to making use of senses, those that we have. We merely interpret the data produced by artificial sensors, but I repeat myself. 
Can we make an artifical sensor for this 'sixth' or 'extra' sense, or can we create something that detects faith? If not, why not? When we can do ALL this other stuff to make our hearing better than a bat's, our vision better than an owl's...

You've spent sixty years in the practice and can't convince a SINGLE person about the truth of your claims, or demonstrate their veracity? And you still believe them to be true? Are you sure I'm the one who's pathetic? I don't get why you're being such a dick. 
#53
fauxlaw
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@ludofl3x
I'm such a dick because you keep insisting that using artificial sensors makes our natural sensors more effective. NO!!!. Don't you get it, yet? WE do not do the sensing of our artificial sensors. THEY do. We merely collect the data and interpret it. We have no means of natural enhancement. If we did not have the tech, there is no natural enhancement. That other animals have senses we do not share is obvious, yet, you claim infrared sensing is just touch? Not until a bat's lips make physical contact with a victim's hide is touch involved, yet they sense the blood vessel BEFORE the touch. It's an entirely different sense than touch, which touch will positively confirm, when that happens, but we do not share the pre-touch sensation, regardless. Same with magnetic field and echo location.

You cannot convince me directly of what you see. The best you can do is photograph, or draw what you see, and you present that interpretation of your sight to me. And by that artificial means, am I convinced that you see what I see directly? No. Same with your other personal senses. And yet, you can accuse that after 60 years, I cannot prove my faith? Sorry, bud, but you cannot prove the five senses you have and agree I have, either. 
#54
ludofl3x
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Ok, then maybe I misunderstood you. Do you agree with the following?

We only have five senses. Most forms of complex wildlife have different versions of these same senses, nothing extra, just different versions of the same senses. There is no verifiable 'sixth' sense. 


20 days later

#55
Tradesecret
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@MisterChris
Jesus did and he still does. 

13 days later

#56
Castin
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@MisterChris
All in the title. I've decided that if Jesus existed, he most likely resurrected. 
I've decided that if Jesus existed, he almost certainly did not resurrect. 🙂

But did Jesus exist at all? Is the whole thing myth, or is it history? Share.
To my knowledge, modern scholarly consensus is that Jesus of Nazareth did exist, and the Christ myth theory does not have a foothold ("or even a toehold," as Bart Ehrman puts it) among critical scholars.

Scholars also generally agree on two events in Jesus's life: his baptism by John and his crucifixion by the Romans.

Beyond that, there is quite significant disagreement about pretty much everything else - what he said, what he did, what he believed, his character. Much of the New Testament is considered historically unreliable in regard to that information.

If I could hop in a time machine and go anywhere in the past, my #1 stop would be first century Judea to talk to Jesus (I suppose I would have to kidnap an Aramaic translator first - or maybe just make sure my time machine is a TARDIS).

My #2 stop would be dinosaurs.
#57
SirAnonymous
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@Castin
When you do start time traveling, be sure to come back and tell us what Jesus said to you before you go back to the dinosaurs. Can't risk having our time traveler getting eaten before they tell what what they saw, after all!
Topic's author
#58
MisterChris
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@Castin
If I could hop in a time machine and go anywhere in the past, my #1 stop would be first century Judea to talk to Jesus (I suppose I would have to kidnap an Aramaic translator first - or maybe just make sure my time machine is a TARDIS).

My #2 stop would be dinosaurs.
You should save the library of Alexandria while you're at it!
#59
Castin
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@MisterChris
I will totes make sure to only visit a plain full of, like, sauropods. And I will try super hard not to get stepped on. Or plucked up by a Quetzalcoatlus or something.

I feel like saving the library would require altering the course of several wars but I promise to just show up at some point with like a tranq gun and a photocopier.


Topic's author
#60
MisterChris
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@Castin
Brilliant plan