Why are people tearing down certain statues?

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 122
#61
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
do you see what you are doing? We are talking about statues of black men kneeling at white people's feet. You then switch topics to try and make it about something completely different. It is a common tactic for people on the right. It shows me that you don't actually have a coherent argument, so you need to change topics and distract. 
You’re the one who didn’t read. Lincoln statue was a commemoration of liberation not racism. Teddy Roosevelt didn’t enslave people. He saw both white and blacks as people and believed that racism would eventually go away through generations which it slowly is. You’re the one spreading false narratives not me. You’re the one who mentioned white subservience, not me.
#62
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Nah its hypocrisy.

White man's burden is bad if the right does it and it's good if the left does it.
#63
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
You’re the one who didn’t read. Lincoln statue was a commemoration of liberation not racism.
I'm sure the white person who designed it thinks that. Black people who see it certainly disagree. 

Teddy Roosevelt didn’t enslave people. He saw both white and blacks as people and believed that racism would eventually go away through generations which it slowly is.
Racism is still extremely prevalent. It hasn't gone away. 

You’re the one spreading false narratives not me. You’re the one who mentioned white subservience, not me.
How do you not get this. Statues of white saviors standing over subservient black and native people is a problem. 
#64
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
White man's burden is bad if the right does it and it's good if the left does it.
The problem is that "left" doesn;t really have any meaning. you are probably referring to neo-libs, who are actually right wing in many respects. Just not as right wing as republicans. 
#65
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
I'm sure the white person who designed it thinks that. Black people who see it certainly disagree. 
So intent means nothing? What happened to context?

Racism is still extremely prevalent. It hasn't gone away.
Less racists in 1920 than 1820. Less racists in 2020 than 1920.
#66
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
You're going out of your way to frame this in the most absolute batsh*t insane terms. Yes, most Western believers could accept Jesus as an ancient near-Eastern man with the appropriate appearance. But this makes it a little easier as it makes Him more relatable to a contemporary Western audience, as other audiences around the world have also conceived of Him in terms easier to them.
Jesus could've appeared as a green bloodsucking alien with sixteen tentacles. Had He done so He still would've been God the Son and the Christ. And I suppose at least some Christians would still accept Him if He was like that. But that would've made it harder, would it not? Why wouldn't He appear as a human? Is the whole point to test and confuse them, to the point where as few humans as possible would accept Him? If more people consider Jesus this totally foreign and unrelatable concept, and thereby reject Him and what He aimed to provide for men, and thereby end up in Hell, is that mission accomplished?
Look at the Japanese. To them Christianity is this strange foreign thing. Jesus is absolutely not relatable to them. And most people there are not Christian as a result. Is tens of millions more Japanese people in hell a worthwhile price to pay for them not committing the "racist" crime of making Jesus look Japanese?
#67
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
As the Apostle Paul said, "To the Jew I am a Jew, to the Greek I become a Greek". But trying to make Evangelistic efforts fit local cultural conditions is not allowed because racism so I guess he should've just not done that and instead let the wider Mediterranean world reject Christ as a weird itinerant Hebrew preacher. The Jews eventually rejected Him completely so I suppose the small Jewish Christian community would've gone extinct, upon which the Word would've been snuffed out entirely. But the damnation of the entire human race would've been totally worth it, yup yup.
#68
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
So intent means nothing? What happened to context?
intent matters too. But if you use that intent for bad purposes (or in this case a racist design) then it is still bad. The people who enslaved black people also thought they were doing what was best for them. Their intent was to help them, while they enslaved them. I don't know who designed that particular statue, but the message is pretty clear. The white savior standing over the helpless slave. It is the white savior trope. 

Less racists in 1920 than 1820. Less racists in 2020 than 1920.
I'm not sure that is true. Racism has become less outwardly acceptable. So people hide it better. 
#69
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Swagnarok
That whole rant is completely irrelevant. Jesus was middle eastern. He wasn't white. But white people prefer to think of him as white because of racism. Try and justify it all you want, it doesn't change it. 
#70
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
intent matters too. But if you use that intent for bad purposes (or in this case a racist design) then it is still bad. The people who enslaved black people also thought they were doing what was best for them. Their intent was to help them, while they enslaved them. I don't know who designed that particular statue, but the message is pretty clear. The white savior standing over the helpless slave. It is the white savior trope. 
It wasn’t a slave lmao. It was a freed slave. This what I’m talking about. The intent was to commemorate emancipation. That’s what the broken chains show. It’s your burden to prove that intent was incorrect and that it was racist. It isn’t a white savior. It’s a savior. White people freed the slaves.

I'm not sure that is true. Racism has become less outwardly acceptable. So people hide it better.
Really? A black Democrat  never got elected to the Senate from the South after the end of Reconstruction and before Civil Rights Act. Now a black republican would get elected over a white liberal in southern states.
#71
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
-->
@HistoryBuff
Even if that's true, "racism" is not this magic existential evil, this unforgivable offense like Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Like anything else concerning mere inter-human relations, it comes in degrees and mainly concerns degrees of harm inflicted in fact; imagining Jesus was white because that makes Him a bit more relatable is in no way comparable to, say, murdering a black man because of his skin color. That's so unbelievably petty a thing to gripe about that I don't imagine it's a sin at all in most contexts. So far as racism simply means possessing a racial, ethnic or group bias of some type (as you're clearly suggesting), one could argue that God Himself caused that in the first place via the events of the Tower of Babel and the dispersion/division of humanity into tribes. Did God sin?
I will ask you, what positive good would it do to frame Jesus in a less relatable albeit more historically accurate way? Is placating the sensibilities of some random guy on the internet the highest good if even one person might reject Jesus and the Gospel as too alien for his tastes? Because as I said, that's not a mere hypothetical: in some parts of the world it's already happening and has been happening for a long, long time.
#72
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
It wasn’t a slave lmao. It was a freed slave. This what I’m talking about. The intent was to commemorate emancipation. That’s what the broken chains show. It’s your burden to prove that intent was incorrect and that it was racist. It isn’t a white savior. It’s a savior. White people freed the slaves.
ok, but if the effect of the statue is to piss off the people who are supposed to like it, that makes it a really shitty statue. Showing black people kneeling at the feet of a white man is a shitty design. 

Really? A black Democrat  never got elected to the Senate from the South after the end of Reconstruction and before Civil Rights Act. Now a black republican would get elected over a white liberal in southern states.
ok, so people also have learned to hate other "tribes" as well as other races. Whoo!! progress!! lol
#73
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
To a Chinese person, a Jewish Jesus is no less alien than a European Jesus. The only Jesus that wouldn't be foreign is a Chinese Jesus. He doesn't benefit from the removal of whiteness since European's not the only race he considers foreign. How does he benefit? Or more to the point, who benefits?
#74
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Swagnarok
Even if that's true, "racism" is not this magic existential evil, this unforgivable offense like Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
wait are you arguing that racism is less evil than blasphemy? Strongly disagree. 

one could argue that God Himself caused that in the first place via the events of the Tower of Babel and the dispersion/division of humanity into tribes. Did God sin?
well, since the christian god doesn't exist I don't see how it is relevant. 

I will ask you, what positive good would it do to frame Jesus in a less relatable albeit more historically accurate way?
I am arguing that portraying him that way is racist, which it is. I'm not arguing that I agree that statues of white jesus should be torn down. I have said that several times now. 

Because as I said, that's not a mere hypothetical: in some parts of the world it's already happening and has been happening for a long, long time.
well Christianity is a cult that has lead to the deaths of millions of people. So i'm really not concerned about people turning away from it. 

#75
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
ok, but if the effect of the statue is to piss off the people who are supposed to like it, that makes it a really shitty statue. Showing black people kneeling at the feet of a white man is a shitty design. 
The effect wasn’t to piss of people lmao. No one was pissed off till now when they saw a black person kneeling in front of a white person without knowing who the white man was or what the statue was commemorating. Zero context was taken into consideration. A copy of the statue was in Boston for over a 100 years. The fact is the people taking down this statue are complete morons who take things at face value.

ok, so people also have learned to hate other "tribes" as well as other races. Whoo!! progress!! lol
What? I’m literally showing you how racism is less today than 1876-1964 because an African American would never get elected from the South then but easily would now.
#76
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@HistoryBuff
What is your beef with the Lincoln statue?

It was funded almost entirely by freed slaves and Frederick Douglas gave the keynote speech when it was dedicated.

If the literal victims of slavery approved of it, what makes you so righteous as to be offended for them?
#77
Swagnarok
Swagnarok's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 1,250
3
2
6
Swagnarok's avatar
Swagnarok
3
2
6
wait are you arguing that racism is less evil than blasphemy? Strongly disagree. 

I said it, yes. Because it is true. Because it is absolutely true. The first commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength". The second is "Love your neighbor as yourself". Other verses mentioned circumstances where a Christian might be forced to sever even familial relations, so it's clear the first was intended to hold priority over the second.
Treating people well is certainly important. You can't neglect that. But neither can you elevate people over God. The most fundamental and grievous sin is rebellion against God; such evils as mistreating other humans is but accessory to and resultant from this.
(Also, you're defining "racism" in such broad terms that at least some of what the phrase covers is morally trivial. If it only covers the bad stuff then making Jesus white can't be racist; if making Jesus white is racist then some racism is unimportant.)

well, since the christian god doesn't exist I don't see how it is relevant. 

Seeing as this is an internal affair of the church the opinions of atheists are not relevant here. Nor is any atheist in a position to draw credible moral judgment upon its practices, especially if his judgment is based on contrived secular values not found in Scripture. The church is not measured by the intensity of its devotion to man-made ideas like democracy or communism or anti-racism (as exists as an ideology merely for the sake of opposing racism broadly defined, with opposition to actual ill-effects of racism being a mere corollary issue) and I laugh at anyone who would try. It has its own values and as these are received from God they are sufficient across all time. Man-made ideas obviously can and do improve society along with the material well-being of men but they have little bearing on the matter of salvation, which is the exclusive domain of the church.
#78
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
What's comical is that most of the statues being torn down are made of black stone or other black materials.
#79
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@Greyparrot
Remember when that white statue fell on that black guy’s head?

This white supremacist violence needs to stop!
#80
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
50 years from now it will be socially okay to burn a BLM flag like they burn the confederate flag.
#81
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 15,159
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
iT wAS a sLAve on the statue 
#82
TheDredPriateRoberts
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,383
3
3
6
TheDredPriateRoberts's avatar
TheDredPriateRoberts
3
3
6
-->
@ILikePie5
slippery slope???? naw how could that happen
Plantation is racist now

an estate on which crops such as coffee, sugar, and tobacco are cultivated by resident labor.
an area in which trees have been planted, especially for commercial purposes.

Rhode Island moves to change state's official name due to slavery connotations
#83
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@TheUnderdog
But why are we tearing own statues of Abraham Lincoln and Jesus?  Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves from slavery and Jesus freed us from hell.
Abraham Lincoln didn't free the slaves, and Jesus would have no problem with his statue being torn down since he condemns idolatry.

#84
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@HistoryBuff
I never said it was about history. Dr.Franklin said that. I was pointing out how dumb that is. It isn't about history. It is about the racist undertones of changing the race of jesus to make him white when he was very obviously middle eastern. 
Are there no Caucasians in the Middle East?
#85
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Athias
It's funny how Juneteenth is a holiday but December 6 is not.


Or how about February 10, why is this not a national holiday but Juneteenth is?


It's one thing to SAY "hay, you are free," and quite another to codify it into American law, especially with all the charges of systemic racism going around.
#86
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@ILikePie5
The effect wasn’t to piss of people lmao.
but that is the effect it is having. 


A copy of the statue was in Boston for over a 100 years.
so? Something has existed for awhile so it should continue to exist? Slavers made that argument too. 

What? I’m literally showing you how racism is less today than 1876-1964 because an African American would never get elected from the South then but easily would now.
so you think the fact that people hate "commies" more than they hate black people means they aren't racists? 

#87
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Swagnarok
I said it, yes. Because it is true. Because it is absolutely true.
no it really, really isn't. America is a free country. You can blaspheme all you want. It doesn't hurt anyone. While racism definitely does hurt people. 

But neither can you elevate people over God. 
of course you can. Because america has freedom of religion. If I choose to believe there is no god, then I am perfectly free and justified in doing that. 

(Also, you're defining "racism" in such broad terms that at least some of what the phrase covers is morally trivial. If it only covers the bad stuff then making Jesus white can't be racist; if making Jesus white is racist then some racism is unimportant.)
no. because racism isn't a single event or thought. It is a pattern of thought and behavior. You don't become a racist by carrying out a racist act. The racist act just shows people that you were already racist. Small racist things help to build and support a mindset that white people are superior, or that other ethnicities are scary and shouldn't be trusted. 

Seeing as this is an internal affair of the church the opinions of atheists are not relevant here. Nor is any atheist in a position to draw credible moral judgment upon its practices, especially if his judgment is based on contrived secular values not found in Scripture. 
lol so your argument is, "you don't believe what I believe, so you don't have a right to have an opinion on our racism?" That's a kind of closed minded view. 


#88
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Athias
Are there no Caucasians in the Middle East?
sure, I have never seen any evidence that jesus was one of them though. 

#89
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,969
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
What do you want, a photo? 23 and me DNA scan?

Why is DNA purity so important to you?
#90
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@ILikePie5
I think it is offensive that the word "slave" is in history books. I say we take out the part about slavery.