Why saying "God doesn't exist" is indefensible

Author: Mopac

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#181
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@Goldtop
You can't say "The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist"

You can't even actually deny my God. All you do make little strawmen to tear down.

You can't say, "The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist".

You want to hide your true position because even you are aware that your true position is madness. 


Repent and confess The Truth, oh wicked one, it will be better for you in the end.
#182
Goldtop
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@Mopac
You can't say "The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist"

You can't even actually deny my God

I don't know Ultimate Reality or your God. I actually know more about Leprechauns and Unicorns. They race in the Kentucky Derby, you know.

Is the Kentucky Derby the Ultimate Reality? Wow! I think I get it now.

Repent and confess The Truth, oh wicked one, it will be better for you in the end.
I think you might be channeling Elmer Gantry there.
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#183
Mopac
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The mad fumblers are cursed with strong delusion. 


The one thing that sheds light on to everything they say is that they don't believe in truth. 


Only here to kill, steal, and destroy.


#184
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@Mopac
Only here to kill, steal, and destroy.

That's just paranoid delusion, no one is trying to harm you in any way.
#185
secularmerlin
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@Plisken
The bible is the claim not the evidence. I see no reason to consider it more than a book of fiction until it is demonstrated to me that it is. 
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#186
Mopac
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@secularmerlin

It is impossible to prove anything to a solipsist, so you aren't being genuine.
#187
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@Mopac
If my perceptions reflect reality then we can make certain inferences from those perceptions through the proper application of the scientific method. That the ultimate reality is more than simple physical reality is not among these inferences.

In any case I am a soft solipsist not a hard solipsist. I do not claim that reality does not exist only that it is beyond our epistemological limits to say with certainty that it does.
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#188
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@secularmerlin
Reality as it truly is... that is the ultimate reality. You can be certain this exists because if it weren't so, there wouldn't be a reality as it seems to be.



#189
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@Mopac
Either our perceptions reflect reality and there is no reason to suspect that the ultimate reality is more than simple physical reality or they do not in which case there is no reason to suspect any particular thing is true over any other. Niether of these scenarios necessitates that christianity reflects ultimate reality.
#190
Plisken
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@secularmerlin
I need you to elaborate on what exactly you think has been claimed if you want my input on what may help you understand what has actually been claimed.  I am not aware of what people are purportedly claiming about the bible.  Its a long book.  

I'll just write this down I guess and yiu can take it for what its worth.  This thread is generally dedicated to the idea that saying "God doesn't exist" may be indefensible.  This may not be true technically, since you can write the letters down, make a definition based on unicorns and leprochauns and than prove that you are the original person who made that fake god up....that is defensible, depending upon context and the bear you are defending against.  It's easily dismissable though because for purpose in an intellectual conversation pertaining to the real world, the actual meaning if you will, is not confined to the limits of your perspective unless perhaps your perspective is one with....  
#191
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@Plisken
I mean the  claims made by the bible not about the bible although any claim about the bible would.likewise need to be demonstrated. 
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#192
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Reflecting God is not the point of Christianity, relationship with God is so you have it all wrong.

Christianity is about loving God by loving others with truth and mercy. Charity. Not living for the sake of satisfying ones own lusts, but sacrificing oneself for the sakenof others, in hope that they may come to knowledge of The Truth. 

Because God is the only one that liberates from this world. 

So you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what the bible is for. You have a fundamental misunderstanding about what Christianity is, and you need to be taught fresh. And if you don't believe I am teaching you real Christianity, know that this is what I teach in the churches, with the blessings of doctors of the faith, missionaries, and many others involved in ministry. I teach at several churches. I head ministries of my own. 

And if you don't believe me, the evidence can primarily be found in the letters of Paul, John, Peter, James... the epistles. there is no better collection of writings in the bible that explain the faith so simply and thoroughly.

The epistles. From Romans onward.




#193
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
You have not demonstrated to me that one cannot love others or practice charity, for whatever reason, without accepting truth.

You have not demonstrated to me that there is anything other than this world (assuming this world does exist).

You have not demonstrated to me that the bible is more than a work of fiction or that Jesus and the apostles were historical rather than apocryphal figures.

If you can clear up these issues we can discuss "what the bible is for".
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#194
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
You are a solipsist, so what you are demanding is a miracle.


But this is a topic about God, and as I said...


Reality as it truly is... that is the ultimate reality. You can be certain this exists because if it weren't so, there wouldn't be a reality as it seems to be.

If you don't accept this clear truth, I have nothing more to say to you, because I won't be able to overcome my belief that you are a trouble making mad fumbler.

God is what God is. I cannot help your blindness. Only God can.

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#195
Mopac
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Being a solipsist is easy. Reject everything


It takes as much thought to reject everything on hearing as it does to believe everything on hearing. None.

There is nothing about solipsism that makes the solipsist particularly insightful or intelligent. It is skepticism at an extreme. A 10 year old solipsist is on the same level as a 50 year old one. It is a totally vapid and insipid epistemelogical black hole to fall in.


The haughtiness of it is demonstrated here. Solipsists stop at, "I know I exist", but if they had any real guts they'd know that it is more certain that God exists than even themselves. For experience itself proves that there is some form of reality, and if there is some form of reality there is ultimate reality, or that which is ultimately real. If there was no reality, there could not be existence.

Even satanists, who worship the self as god before God, deceived and wicked as they are, consider solipsism to be an abominable worldview. 


#196
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
You are a solipsist
Correction I am a soft solipsist. I accept that my perceptions reflect reality both as a convenience and because it is the only "reality" that I can detect. In accepting that (even if only as a convenience) I accept certain other propositions that are supported by those perceptions. Australia for example. Providing that reality as we perceive it is real then Australia must also exist because Australia is physically demonstrable. It is in fact demonstrable in exactly the way that anything outside our observable physical universe is not demonstrable.

Can you demonstrate a connection between christianity and ultimate reality in the way that an Australian could demonstrate that Australia exists?

Can you demonstrate that the bible is more than a work of fiction in this way?

God is what God is.
This niether tells us what any hypothetical god(s) are/is nor demonstrates the existence of any such hypothetical god(s).

If you don't accept this clear truth,
When you say clear truth do you mean clear in the way that Australia clearly exists? If so then please demonstrate this clear truth and I will have no choice but to accept it (to the extent that I accept the existence of Australia).

Reality as it truly is... that is the ultimate reality. You can be certain this exists because if it weren't so, there wouldn't be a reality as it seems to be.
This is tautalogically true but you have not demonstrated to me that reality as it truly is is in any way connected with christianity or the bible.
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#197
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@secularmerlin
We've been over this before. Not going to do it again.

Ultimate Reality is not as complicated to accept as existing as you make it out to be.

#198
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@Mopac
I accept that something must exist in order for me to have perceptions. I accept the tautology you have presented. It is your claims about this underlying reality that I reject. Also please understand that rejecting your claims does not mean I consider them impossible I am simply unable to maintain a belief in the absence of evidence.

Even an (how did you put it?) invisible sky daddy is not impossible, there just isn't any sufficient evidence to support the idea. In much the same way there is no sufficient evidence that ultimate reality is connected to christianity or the bible. Can you demonstrate that it is impossible to accept the idea of an underlying reality without also accepting christian doctrine?

Again you are under no obligation to provide evidence but if you cannot or will not do not be surprised when others remain unconvinced of your possition.
#199
Tejretics
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@Mopac
That's quite a bizarre definition of "God." If that were the definition of God held by the majority of people, it'd make no sense to worship it, to personify it in some manner, and to consider it a source of moral authority. Defining "God" as "truth" or "reality" is a clever way to say that God exists, but the atheist's argument isn't to contest that definition of God. 

I'd also note that "ultimate reality" is different than "truth" or "reality." Merriam-Webster itself clarifies this: "the supreme or ultimate reality, such as the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe." 

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#200
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@Tejretics
The definition I am presenting to you is accurate, and what has been understood theologically for thousands of years.

I think it is important to realize that just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean that it objectively does not make sense.

But atheists do deny The Ultimate Reality if they deny God.

So if an atheist believes there is Ultimate Reality, they are not really an atheist, and should abandon that identity. They would be more useful in theological discussions if they did so.

It would also greatly open them up good sensical rational theology that they missed out on by holding onto a superstitious idea of God.
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#201
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@Tejretics

I'd also note that "ultimate reality" is different than "truth" or "reality." Merriam-Webster itself clarifies this: "the supreme or ultimate reality, such as the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe." 

If you look at the instructions on how to use the dictionary, that part after the "such as" is subsumed, not exhaustive.

Certainly The Ultimate Reality is seen as these things and worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe. However, the integral part of the definition is "The Supreme or Ultimate Reality", and this conception of the monotheistic God is universal, even in cultures alien to the Abrahamic faiths.

But something that needs to be understood about Christianity is that it very much looks like the opposite of what it really is sometimes, and it is something that goes to the very founding of it. 

But as even St Augustine once wrote, True Religion has always existed, since the beginning, and in his day it took the form of Christianity. 

The Ultimate Reality is God. That is the foundation of True Religion. Everything else is abiding in that. It's easy to get confused by cultural things and the power plays of politicians and wizards. Christianity teaches that God is King and Savior and we are really all in this together. The Church is Catholic, or Universal. Just because an institution claims to be universal does not make it so. The Church is the body of Christ, of whom all things were created by, exist in, are sustained, by, and have eternal life through.

It's a mystery, but that doesn't mean that it is meaningless, and even mysteries can be understood. But they can't be understood if you don't believe. The very foundation of faith is that God exists. If you don't believe this, you can get nowhere. This is a dead tree, and self condemnation.

If it wasn't so, things wouldn't be the way they are, and God made things the way they are. It's really quite alright.

But Christianity is about being a disciple of God. If God is The Truth, there is clearly a right way and a wrong way to love God. After all, we are loving The Truth, which is incompatible with loving the things of this world. To love God more than the things that satisfy the lusts of the senses and mind is very alien to a hedonistic culture. Christian theology sees this as idolatry. These things bribe usnaway from The Truth. And they clearly do, at least to those with eyes to see.


So Christianity is very very misunderstood because most people are superstitious. Believers and unbelievers. 


But what is it really all about, cutting through it all?

The Ultimate Reality is God. Love God with everything. Show others charity, because you have been wrong and are still wrong. If you hate someone for being wrong, you condemn yourself because you aren't any better. Forgive. 

But if you get nothing else, get that The Ultimate Reality is God, because that is what this topic is about.





#202
Mdh2000
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@Mopac
What traits does this supposed ultimate reality possess? Or do you claim that is it? Or must it somply be 1: The last in a progression of realities, 2: the best or most extreme of realities ... Or well, there are other uses of ultimate. If so then I see no reason to assume the reality we observe isn't the ultimate reality it's the only reality I know of. That would lead to pantheism if I accepted your definition of god wouldn't it?
#203
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@Mopac
Here is what the Merriam-webster unabridged dictionary tells us about the ultimate reality....


Definition of ultimate reality 
: something that is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality ultimate reality in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is God




THE TRUTH

And how do you determine what that truth is? You can twist English so that the word God =truth however that is all you can do. Can you show there is a supreme and final power in all reality? Let us again address your lack of properties expressed in your definition of God. If accept your definition (I don't, I use the Oxford English dictionary, seems a better source for English considering it's in England) then I'm left quite comfortably with the idea that there is an ultimate reality and that this is god. This reality could be a mindless creatorless universe. In short your argument does nothing to show any particular entity is true, it simply argues for truth. Pure semantics with no substance at all.
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#204
Mopac
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@Mdh2000
You are fundamentally off in your thinking because you think I'm twisting language to make God The Truth. That is what the concept refers to. Every atheist argument is contingent on making God something other than what God is. A little "g" god. It is a strawman. A false god. A little statue, a fetish you can smash against the ground.

The point is not to know God entirely, but to recognize what you are relating to. Surely you can see the difference between a life focused on playing videogames, a life focused on getting laid, a life focused on making tons of money. If your life is about better abiding in Truth, certain natural transformative things will happen in your life very naturally.



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#205
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So is there anyone actually crazy enough to debate the reality of truth?

Of course not, and if there was, they would be exposed as the fool they are.

Let it be known that The Truth is God, and there is no argument against God that can stand. 

Atheism towards God is a foolish position. 

#206
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@Mopac
So is there anyone actually crazy enough to debate the reality of truth?
That would be you.

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#207
Mopac
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@Goldtop
Yet your foundational position is that there is no truth, so everything you assert can be dismissed as a lie.

#208
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@Mopac
Yet your foundational position is that there is no truth

That's a childish lie that you tell everyone because you haven't the capacity to form an argument.
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#209
Mopac
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@Goldtop
As you can see based on the OP, when you deny the. existence of God, you are denying that which is ultimately real. If there is no Ultimate Reality, there is no such thing as truth.


Thus, you deny the existence of truth, which is why everything you say can be dismissed as a lie, even you accusing me of being a liar.

You aren't standing on anything.

#210
Goldtop
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@Mopac
You are lying because I never said any of those words. So, not only are you lying, you are deceiving others by putting words in my mouth. Seems being a believer in the Ultimate Reality also makes one very dishonest.