Why saying "God doesn't exist" is indefensible

Author: Mopac

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#151
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
Christianity teaches that everyone is wrong and only God is right.
In that case you acknowledge that you are wrong in which case you cannot make any claim and expect to be believed.

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#152
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Don't believe me, believe God.

That is righteousness in Christianity, not self righteousness.
#153
Goldtop
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Don't believe me, believe God.
God said you were wrong, too. How now brown cow.

#154
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
But christianity teaches us that you are wrong in which case I have no reason to accept your statements about what christianity teaches and even less reason to accept the bible since it wad written by men, ancient bronze age men with no knowledge of modern medicine or cosmology. Do you really fail to see how that undermines Your argument? 

If there is an ultimate truth that doesn't mean we can know anything about it, indeed you have as much as said that we cannot. The ultimate reality could be anything or nothing and it would be functionally identical from our perspective.

Say it with me "we cannot know anything about the ultimate reality and it is therefore impossible to say with certainty that the ultimate reality has anything to do with christianity."
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#155
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Yet, if you love The Truth there is a right way and a wrong way to go about this relationship. 

It is easy to embrace arbitrariness, it is very natural. If you love The Truth, this wouldn't be the right way.
#156
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
So the ultimate truth is completely arbitrary? That doesn't quite gel with your previous claims.
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#157
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@secularmerlin
The Truth is not personal whim. I am not making that claim.
#158
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@Mopac
Personal whim and arbitrary are not interchangeable. Did I misunderstand you?
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#159
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Definition of arbitrary courtesy of Merriam-webster...

"based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something"

The Truth is not arbitrary.

#160
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
Them what did you mean?
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#161
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Embrasing arbitrariness is not the correct way to love The Truth.

If you are relating to The Truth through love of it, there is a right way of doing it. 

#162
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
It hardly matters if there is a right and wrong way of embracing truth. If everyone is wrong then you are wrong and if you are wrong then clearly you do not know the right way to embrace truth whether there is a right way or not. Also if everyone is wrong then how could we ever possibly determine that any god(s) are right? If it even anything but nonsensical to think of the ultimate truth is right or wrong rather than simply being or that it could or would acknowledge our love or lack thereof.

This line of reasoning is self defeating.
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#163
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Then by all means, cop out and embrace arbitrariness. No one is stopping you. In fact, it's pretty popular these days. 





#164
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
What about saying "I don't know" is arbitrary? You are the one who both embraces a philosophy which states that we cannot know ultimate reality while simultaneously believing that you can make claims about that reality.
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#165
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
If you don't believe there is a right way to love the truth, why pretend you are asking me honest questions? 

If you want to be a fool, go ahead and be a fool. As I said, it's popular these days.

Not interested in getting into a tumble with another mad fumbler.
#166
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
I do not know if there is a right or wrong way. That is why I do  it claim that there is a right way or a wrong way. You are the one making this claim. When making a positive claim one shoulders the burden of proof. You have thus far not met this burden. 
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#167
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Yes, because drinking gasoline is just as good for you as drinking water.


If you are going to be so dim witted, you might as well just start smoking crack. After all, there is no right or wrong, yeah?


Think about what you are saying. If you can't figure it out on your own, I'm not going to be able to figure it out for you. 

Next time you buy something, just roll some dice to figure out how much you end up paying them. Then pay them in monopoly money.


Use your head and figure out what this means... LOVE THE TRUTH.... if you can't figure out how there is a right way of doing this and a wrong way, THINK HARDER, because you are wasting my time otherwise.

Get real. Get honest. 

And I know you are capable of this, because you aren't really a dummy. I don't need to explain or prove anything. 






#168
secularmerlin
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@Mopac
Your last post had nothing to do with our conversation. If our perceptions accurately reflect reality then we can make certain inferences from those perceptions. One of those inferences is that gasoline is not good to drink. How does that prove that our perceptions do reflect reality? Also is that an eternal truth? I'm still a little fuzzy on the difference between the truth and any eternal truth. Either way how does that prove there is a right and a wrong way to determine truth?

You are not supporting your claim you are engaging in tautologies again (in this case "drinking poison is unhealthy").

You are right about one thing. You don't need to explain or prove anything, but if you refuse to don't be surprised when I dismiss ypur claims as unproven.

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#169
Mopac
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@secularmerlin
Then join the rest of the mad fumblers if you want, because it is between you and God not you and me.



#170
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@Mopac
You and I are having this conversation. I am not conversing with any god(s) so far as I know. That would make this between you and I not god(s) and I.

#171
disgusted
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@Mopac

I do not need to prove that my beliefs reflect reality in anyway.
You can't, is actually TRUE, because they don't.
That is not Christianity. Christianity teaches that everyone is wrong and only God is right.

My belief is that God isnright, and thisnis obviously true. My God is The Truth.
You are wrong and I've quoted the expert to prove it.
If a truth dies does The Truth die?
There is no difference between the truth and The Truth, I know that you worship capital letters but as we have seen above you are wrong.
Which god would you be believing in if the Canaanites didn't invent him, the Jews didn't adopt him and the Christians didn't adapt him?
#172
Plisken
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@secularmerlin
This thread serve's as an illustration of evil that can result from breaking the 2nd commandment.

God is one, not the Christian god.  Whatever you are thinking when you say "the Christian god", it's not what a follower of Christ is referring to with a capital G.  You need to understand that, God is one, or Mopac's christain views may go right over your head.  I'm not particularly interested in a conversation chain, just writing a quick reference in the case you should determine that it''s convenient for your perception to reflect reality a little more precisely : ) or perhaps something held in higher regard than mere convenience.
#173
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@Plisken

I don't believe in any god(s) therefore for the purposes of this discussion we can use your preferred definition. When I say god(s) it is merely a placeholder for whatever concept is under discussion. 

As for my perceptions reflecting reality I'm not sure how we could design a test to determine that but if they do reflect reality then there is no evidence for or against the idea that some god(s) exist unless you have some evidence to present.
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#174
Mopac
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@Plisken
The Trinity details a relationship, it is not a dividing of God into 3.

We relate to God through God's Word with The Spirit of Truth.

These 3 are one, and the easiest way to see this is to realize what they have in common. Truth.


This topic is of course not about Christianity, but God. Not everyone who believe in The Ultimate Reality identifies as a Christian.





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#175
Mopac
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@Plisken
By the way, secularmerlin is a solipsist, he's in an epistemological black hole. 
#176
Plisken
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@secularmerlin
 I have not given you a definition.  I gave you a truth you may refer to while checking your notions, that may be of use to you in speaking with Mopac, and other Christians.  
Here, maybe this will help as well


13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the
children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
#177
Goldtop
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@Mopac
Not interested in getting into a tumble with another mad fumbler.

Yes, we know you're here to preach and not debate.
#178
Goldtop
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@Plisken
 I gave you a truth
Here's another truth to Moses from a loving God...

"I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them."

And, Moses thus reacts for his loving God...

Now when Moses saw that the people were out of control—for Aaron had let them get out of control to be a derision among their enemies—then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him. He said to them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’ ” So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
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#179
Mopac
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@Goldtop
Yeah, and those 3,000 stiff necked people would have killed everyone else through their uncooperation because they were wandering through the desert and the entire community could not afford to suffer foolishness. 

It might seem strange to someone like you living in rich decadent 21st century luxury to stone someone to death for stealing, or sleeping with someone elses wife, but when you are a people wandering through the desert with hardly any resources, you can't afford these things. Such crime is amplified. 

But you are still making a critical error. The God of Christianity is not the bible. The bible is a witness to The God of Christianity. And truly, The God of The Bible and The God of Christianity are the same God. The One God. The author and perfecter of our the faith.


The God you don't know because you can't tell the difference between creation and the uncreated, and prefer to attack created things rather than The Ultimate Reality.
Because even you know that attacking God is stupid.

Can you say, "The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist"?

Or are you going to cop out again and ask "what is really really real?"

What is really really real is what is really really real. Whatever that is. That is God. The Ultimate Reality.

Can you say, "The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist"?


I bet you can't, because even you know this is stupid. And if you do, you make yourself look stupid(er). You are trapped. You'd be better off turning away from your wickedness and admitting the clear and manifest truth.

That God exists.


Or if you can't, go on and say, "The Ultimate Reality doesn't  exist".







#180
Goldtop
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@Mopac
Yeah, and those 3,000 stiff necked people would have killed everyone else
You're just making that up, there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Lying doesn't help your argument.

It might seem strange to you to stone someone to death for stealing
No, I wouldn't use the word "strange" to describe such behavior, instead, the words 'insane, selfish, arrogant, ignorant' and a host of other words come to mind. But, you're good with stoning others, yes, even if it was your own family?

you can't tell the difference between creation and the uncreated
Then, you can educate us all on that point and tell us exactly what is and what is not created?

Can you say, "The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist"?
Can you say, "Meaningless Words"?

even you know this is stupid.
Your claims? Yes, they are.

You'd be better off turning away from your wickedness
There's your problem, you seem to think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is wicked. That's why we know religion rots the brain and makes good people do bad things. You're a testament to that.