Themeless Mafia 1 - Day Phase 1

Author: Lucky

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oromagi
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@Danielle
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Anybody want to give a summary while I read up?

Ragnar soft claimed mason but no one is confirming him. If you are a mason just respond by saying so ASAP so we can move on.

I am not Mason.  I breadcrumbed my role early on & will reveal on demand from town.  I saw Ragnar's scum must be roleblocker comment and wondered as much.

But that was yesterday.  I wonder what about the utility of soft-claiming mason without confirmation but maybe that's addressed as I catch up
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@oromagi
But that was yesterday.  I wonder what about the utility of soft-claiming mason without confirmation but maybe that's addressed as I catch up
To recap, Ragnar said the mafia has a role blocker meaning he is soft claiming cop or mason. If he were soft claiming cop, I would imagine he'd outright claim and ask the doc (who is still hidden) to be on him tonight so he could investigate. This helps town by keeping him alive today and doing an investigation at night. 

He didn't ask for that though, so we are to assume he is claiming mason. Nobody else said they are the other mason. Airmax and Sui still have to confirm they are not masons. If neither claim mason, Ragnar is scum.

In that case we should look at Lunatic for aforementioned reasons. He actually declared Ragnar would be a "mislynch" in post 644. He seems to not want to lynch Ragnar. So either they're scum buddies, or on the off chance that Ragnar IS in fact town, there is no way Lunatic would have known that let alone have the audacity to declare that unless he is scum.

In a world where Lunatic was the other mason or doctor, he would have confirmed Ragnar to avoid a mislynch (and confirm himself town) or he would have recognized Ragnar was the cop because he is the doc. Lunatic would have suggested Ragnar investigate at night and the doc be on him. I dunno if Lunatic hinted at having a role though (Zaradi did) so I just find Lunatic's behavior very sus throughout this whole thing.

But either way Ragnar is the focus until/unless someone confirms him as a mason. IF there is a doc, they should of course keep quiet but I doubt we have a cop and doctor. In that case, we would be figuring out how to make those roles work for us strategically rather than draw useless "clues" from the few active players. I've already given Ragnar the chance multiple times to claim cop and ask the doc to be on him but he hasn't. 

So he's claiming mason and nobody has confirmed him. That's where we're at. We need to lynch him today if he isn't confirmed by anyone. 
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@Zaradi
I'm gonna throw this out there: if Ragnar's lynched today and I get shot tonight, I think there's strong merit to pressuring coal. Because holy shit I don't think I can say it any different way without hardclaiming.
I just remembered this post. If you're the mason, say so. If you're not then I have no idea why you would say this.
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@sui_generis
Well?
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@Lunatic
 
I am suspecting a ragnar/objectivity scum team.
at the same place as this at this point 

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@Danielle
#664

still catching up 

I read the most recent few posts 

I am not mason 

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@airmax1227
@Zaradi
I don't think Airmax is going to post before 7:10 pm.

If Zaradi doesn't say he is a mason, we should assume statistically that Airmax isn't and vtl Ragnar today. 

Zaradi or Lunatic claiming mason is the only scenario where we shouldn't lynch Ragnar.

If there is a cop/doctor or some other TPR, keep quiet, lay low and just make sure Ragnar gets lynched. 

oromagi
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Ragnar's roleblocker post:
Too much to get caught up on right now. I left at page 16, and we're on page 21.

Mafia is working to keep me at L-1, and I don't foresee that going away by pointing out the flawed logic on why this wagon was formed.

When I left, people were focusing on the question of whether or not Lucky assigned roles at random. It was random, I can say that with absolute certain.

Further, if mafia have a power role, it's blocker.  Of course by saying this, I'll be dead by morning. I suggest voting for someone who has actually made scum slips.
Meaning that ragnar has ruled out column B based on his role which could only be Mason because Mason is the only role that doesn't iterate in Column B

That suggests two possible setups.

Column A & Row 3: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column C & Row 3: Mafia Goon x 2, Town Mason x2, Vanilla Townie x 5

But the major utility of Mason is to form a town core. 

  • If Ragnar was a mason, he would have discussed his decision with his partner and they together must have realized they'd have to come out together or stay in together.
    • Lack of confirmation definitely weakens Ragnar's claim
  • What was the value of claiming any PR yesterday? 
  • Scum might like the idea of claiming mason, since a scum partner can claim confirmation
    • butt then again, where is Ragnar's scum partner?



oromagi
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UNVOTE

VTL Ragnar
Danielle
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@coal
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Ragnar has 2 votes (me, Oro) and we need 5 by 7:10 pm. Hopefully Zaradi posts by then to say whether or not he is a mason. One of you should vote Ragnar so that he's at L2 if Zaradi doesn't confirm him and we need to vtl. 
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@Lunatic
Confirm you are not a mason. 
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@Danielle
Getting the mason to confirm is beyond stupid. To be clear the only two people here rejecting the idea that ragnar is a mason in the first place is still Dani and Coal. Please do not out if you are the mason or if you are not the other mason.
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still reading 

VTL Ragnar 
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@Lunatic
Getting the mason to confirm is beyond stupid.

100% disagree. It confirms Ragnar is town and confirms another person as town so they aren't mislynched. This helps town narrow down the scum pool. 

Literally the only point of the masons is to confirm each other. Otherwise they are utterly useless vanilla townies. Staying quiet at this point doesn't help them and it doesn't help town (especially if Zaradi is the other mason... he practically spelled out having a power role). Who gives a shit if claiming mason puts a target on their back for a NK? They have completely useless roles anyway. They don't do shit during the night. The whole point of their role is to be confirmed town so they aren't lynched during the day. That's it. Unless you're saying they can claim mason later in the game to prove themselves town. That only works if Ragnar is lynched/town confirming there's another mason in the game in the first place. 

If you aren't scum then you're playing dumb. I'm very comfortable lynching you or Ragnar today but my vote will stay on Ragnar. 



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@Objectivity
ffs don't tell me Objectivity got  modkilled for editing 

this is why I told Lucky to edit it in the OP 

this is bullshit 
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Official Vote Count

Ragnar [3]: Danielle (180), oromagi (669), sui_generis (673),
coal [2]: Lunatic (646), Ragnar (649),
Lunatic [2]: Zaradi (204), coal (635),
Danielle [0]:
Objectivity [0]:
oromagi [0]:
Zaradi [0]:
airmax1227 [0]:
sui_generis [0]:

Not Voting [1]: airmax1227,

With 8 in play, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 7:10pm EST Friday, May 22nd.

Danielle
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@Lunatic
I really think scum is among Ragnar, Lunatic, Oro and Airmax. If in fact Ragnar were proven to be mason by someone confirming him, my scum pile would be cut to 2 or 3 people and I wouldn't be aggressively pushing a potential mislynch today. 

Right now you're saying we have two potential people who can be confirmed town but we don't want to confirm them lol how stupid. Especially if the mafia kills Ragnar tonight. Then his role would have been a complete waste and the other mason would be useless too.  I truly don't get this line of thinking at all. 
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@coal
If TUF was Adam's scum partner I would expect that Adam would be being coached on what to post in a way that was not so self-evidently an issue

For the love of all that is sacred on earth in general and within the English language and modern usage in particular, purge that usage from your vocabulary and replace it with "were".  "if x were y" is used for hypotheticals, not "if x was y".   

/endgrammarnazirant.  
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@Danielle
Lol. Your post reads so desperate. coal says the only person he hasn't FOS'd today is Zaradi and I. "Oh they must be scum together! Har har! They're active and can't wait to gloat." It's more likely that you'd just wanna end the game because scum was found so easily. This is such a novice (and bad) attempt at game psychology by the way -- it's not getting under my skin. Just making you read scummy. 
If your first reaction is to swipe what I've said under the rug as a veteran of 11 years playing mafia is to assume I am being "desperate", then I don't believe this is a real reaction. This doesn't sound like something you would say as town. Dismissing what I've said for the reasons I've said would be another thing.

I'd also like to note this assessment is BS since I'm the only one who has been consistently on Ragnar. coal has delayed lynching him, prodded others and voted for others so he isn't tunneling; I am. Ergo you are looking for a BS way to link coal and I and you failed. 
Backing off ragnar after what he had said was the town thing to do, there is no question or debate about it. The two people who were still hard core pushing him after his claim was you and Coal, so naturally that's a scum team forming in my mind. Mason in general may not be a big town power role in normal games, but in this game two people who can confirm themselves is pretty big. If this communication doesn't exist, it will be found out inevitably. We don't need to crack the case of "If ragnar's is lying" today, if he is it would be found out. To continue to pressure Ragnar is so purely scummy, I don't know how to view you in a town light anymore than I can Coal. 

If you're a mason, claim so we can avoid mislynching Ragnar and we can put you in the town pile.
The other mason doesn't need to claim. It's a needless waste of a role. The fact we know a mason exists is already bad enough and means mafia have night kill information for the next two nights to kill off confirmed townies. Ragnars affilition shouldn't even be under investigation at the moment.

Otherwise everything about Ragnar's game play has been retarded and I have no problem lynching you today for trying to turn the tables on me when he reads so scummy. He is blaming me for telling the mafia... exactly what he said himself? None of his whining about that makes sense either. If he is town and I am scum, then as scum I would have figured out exactly what he meant because *HE* said it. So bitching about me regurgitating what he already said is similarly desperate to you trying to turn attention towards people that have been actively participating, scum hunting and not being so blatantly anti-town. 
I also don't think Ragnar's been on his A game this game. I even cited examples of him as town trying harder. Considering that's been the main argument people are using to pin him though, a continued lack of it he has to realize doesn't help his case much? Maybe he is playing differently, but in the capacity of a different group. That said, as I said early, other than him outright admitting he his scum, lynching him is just a bad idea. Since you and coal are saying you would rather lynch me, let me ask you this, if I flip town after you lynch me how does that effect your read on Ragnar since you are proposing me as his scum buddy? If you don't town read him after my death than that would be fvcking convienent lol but I much suspect that to be the case if I get lynched. It doesn't actually appear you care who gets mislynched as long as someone does get mislynched. You and Coal are trying very hard not to be open minded, not just about this situation, but in general.

You're not even trying to draw attention to inactives; you're literally choosing the two most active people and have not been able to respond or discredit a single thing I posted -- instead just saying I might be scum lol. Very convenient. 
Are you fvcking kidding me? I've been drawing attention to inactives the WHOLE GAME. I started pressuring you for the same reason in the beginning. And up until I just barely switched my vote, it was on Sui. I was even pinging him and oro telling them to get their butts in the game. This is ridiculous.

Please explain what you mean when you declare Ragnar a definitive mislynch. How do you KNOW he is town? 

Okay where did I say that he was a definitive mislynch? I am leaning that direction but I didn't actually say that did I? Ragnars claim, combined with things another player have said, make me buy the story regardless. And if he is the roleblocker, or on a team with a roleblocker, that information will come out as more dead bodies flip in the graveyard. If ragnar lied, it will show itself. I do not see how town needs to find out if he's lying today when what he said is a death warrant for later if he is lying. 
Lunatic
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Lol the funniest thing here is that Danielle and Coal aren't even willing to see this as "Oh maybe I am missing something obvious" or "Maybe we just have a meta dis-agreement on what to do about ragnar".

The fact that their heads show "Ragnar is scum, and Lunatic not wanting to lynch him means he is scum too 100%" Shows how open minded these two are being.
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@Lunatic
Okay where did I say that he was a definitive mislynch? 
In post 644 you said I was scum reading you for not helping to "mislynch"Ragnar. How do you know he is a mislynch? The only way you could know that is if you're a mason, doctor or scum.

You have mentioned inactives throughout the game, but at this juncture you're focusing on coal and I. Personally coal is my strongest town read and it's not even close. If he is mafia I'll be shocked. 

I'm leaning town on Zaradi after he said he might be forced to "hard claim" which was a useless comment unless he was alluding to being a mason or doctor (to confirm Ragnar). I have no idea why people with power roles are claiming to have them and then not want to discuss how they can be utilized to help the town.  Right now the town has NO IDEA if these people are fibbing but mafia does. So mafia gets solid info from these dumb little breadcrumbs while the rest of us are left to speculate. If you're going to claim a power role then LET'S AT LEAST USE IT AND MAKE IT USEFUL. At least let us confirm people during the day phase now that so many mistakes have been made (if Ragnar is in fact town). Otherwise Ragnar's role is completely and utterly useless and he'll just be killed during the night anyway. Cool. 


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@coal
fully on board with this 

my only hesitation is knowing that I myself am floundering even when I'm not being lazy, so I'm pretty slow to accuse people of scum based on that sorta thing. but I think this is sound judgment and something off of which I'm willing to VTL 
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@Danielle
100% disagree. It confirms Ragnar is town and confirms another person as town so they aren't mislynched. This helps town narrow down the scum pool. 


Why does ragnar need to be confirmed today? If he is lying the set up will show that in a phase or two.

Literally the only point of the masons is to confirm each other. Otherwise they are utterly useless vanilla townies.
In context of a normal game? Maybe, but not here. This is an open set up, which means basically they are two innocent townies when they decide to out. Getting them to out early in DP1 is just handfeeding them to mafia. Why would you want that if you were town?

Staying quiet at this point doesn't help them and it doesn't help town (especially if Zaradi is the other mason... he practically spelled out having a power role).

SO THEN WHY THE HELL DO YOU STILL SCUMREAD RAGNAR OR EVEN ME FOR THAT MATTER. This is beyond fvcking dumb. The fact that you just omitted this is literal proof of trying to pursue a mislynch. You've shown you are at least aware enough to have picked up the obvious but ARE STILL PUSHING FOR THE OTHER PERSON TO OUT. My mind is blown if anyone actually buys this.

Who gives a shit if claiming mason puts a target on their back for a NK? They have completely useless roles anyway. They don't do shit during the night. The whole point of their role is to be confirmed town so they aren't lynched during the day. That's it. Unless you're saying they can claim mason later in the game to prove themselves town. That only works if Ragnar is lynched/town confirming there's another mason in the game in the first place. 

That's an insane opinion. Having confirmed townies form a town bloc and help in much needed POE late game is huge. This isn't a very big game.

If you aren't scum then you're playing dumb. I'm very comfortable lynching you or Ragnar today but my vote will stay on Ragnar. 
There is no way you are town with this belief.
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@Lunatic
The fact that their heads show "Ragnar is scum, and Lunatic not wanting to lynch him means he is scum too 100%" Shows how open minded these two are being.

I explicitly said I wasn't certain you were scum so the "100%" quip you literally just made up. No need to be dramatic. I said you called Ragnar a mislynch in post 644 which you could only know for certain if you were scum or a mason. I then asked if you were a mason multiple times, so no I am not tunneling you. I am trying to confirm Ragnar because if he is town then he's going to be killed tonight regardless. Why not confirm him for me so we can focus on someone else and not wase time/mislynch today? 

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@sui_generis
Hold up before voting sui, a lot has happened since then. I was convinced by a lot of that too at the time.
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the coal / max interaction on page 18 shores up townread of both 
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@coal
I think it's been three years since I've played with you in a game of Mafia. Maybe four. I was a bit more gung ho back then. Now I'm apparently old enough to be called daddy by a 23 year old. 

welcome to the club 😏
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@Lunatic
In context of a normal game? Maybe, but not here. This is an open set up, which means basically they are two innocent townies when they decide to out. Getting them to out early in DP1 is just handfeeding them to mafia. Why would you want that if you were town?

MAFIA ALREADY KNOWS WHO THEY ARE BECAUSE THEY OUTED THEMSELVES. RAGNAR CLAIMED A POWER ROLE. If he is town he literally narrowed down which role he has (mason or cop) for no reason and only the mafia knows if he's telling the truth. So he gave mafia definitive info and us nothing but speculation, especially with inactive players.

And then Zaradi said "don't make me hard claim" to coal as some type of veiled threat. What an utterly useless and not remotely slick breadcrumb or hint. If he's claiming he has a power role and Ragnar is town, then Ragnar and Zaradi outed themselves as power roles to scum while the rest of us still have no idea if they're telling the truth or not. 

You want to accept Ragnar's soft claim and keep the other mason/role hidden for what exactly? If Ragnar is town he'll be dead during the night. Cool. Then tomorrow we still won't know who the other confirmed townie is. Cool. I don't see the point of this at all and think you need to watch your tone when speaking to me. It's not my fault I don't speak retard. 
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@Danielle
In post 644 you said I was scum reading you for not helping to "mislynch"Ragnar. How do you know he is a mislynch? The only way you could know that is if you're a mason, doctor or scum.
Your and coal's persistence that Ragnar is scum and is still a lynch candidate today shows impatience as scum. I am pretty confident it is a mislynch based on another person basically already confirming him, but even if I mis-interpreted that, which is likely as anything else, the plain and simple fact is that if he is scum, we will find out one way or another and there is no point to lynch him.

You have mentioned inactives throughout the game, but at this juncture you're focusing on coal and I. Personally coal is my strongest town read and it's not even close. If he is mafia I'll be shocked. 
Yeah, now that we have less than five hours left, and the likelihood of you two mislynching me or ragnar is pretty high, I am focusing on you. So you've basically admitted that you lied straight up about me not focusing inactives lol.

I'm leaning town on Zaradi after he said he might be forced to "hard claim" which was a useless comment unless he was alluding to being a mason or doctor (to confirm Ragnar). I have no idea why people with power roles are claiming to have them and then not want to discuss how they can be utilized to help the town. 
Zaradi was smart to be vague. Just 30 minutes ago you weren't under the impression that he had claimed, which mean his strategy had worked to an extent/ I unfortunately by dialogueing with you may have brought more attention to this issue.

Re: and then not want to discuss how they can be utilized to help the town.  
You guys really wanted the cat out of the bag on this one. This is so scummy.

 Right now the town has NO IDEA if these people are fibbing but mafia does.
Why does town need to know RIGHT NOW when it will inevitably reveal itself?
 
So mafia gets solid info from these dumb little breadcrumbs while the rest of us are left to speculate.

Mafia have to guess the same way town do. Town however shouldn't NEED to know right now the same way a mafia might. Blatantly info fishing is something that's been done a lot of DART and DDO, but on Mafiascum this is immediately read as a scum tell. Wish that was the case here.


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why aren't we no-lynching? 

D1 no-lynch, all mislynches and successful NKs = D3 MYLO = D3 no lynch and D4 MYLO with 3t v 2s

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