Themeless Mafia 1 - Day Phase 1

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#301
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@Lunatic
My focus is not really on you because I think other people are applying sufficient pressure, its on airmax and dani.  I still would like for you to give a full list of reads though
#302
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@Lunatic
Almost half the game so far has played out since your last read, any updates besides me?
#303
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@Objectivity
I have been pressuring Dani despite everyone else accepting her explanation for inactivity and letting her kind of fly under the radar, so not really agreeable there.  I town read you like 10 pages back but a lot has played out since then.  You are pressuring me, fine, what are your other reads besides me?
Zaradi's whole case is just bad. Part of me still think he was backed into a corner yesterday and forced himself to contrive that piece of poop case, but it could be authentic. I don't think he has a stolid scum read outside of that though, and I am fairly suspicious of him, but trying to be open minded. I was inquisitive of Dani yesterday too, but I've dropped that because she pointed out she didn't realize there were no character claims. I think your quick switch of reads without much of your own thoughts injected is telling though. I am interested what specifically made you flip flop your reads, or did you just see two large blocks of text that mentioned "Lunatic" often and be like "Oh, looks like the crowds changing their minds, I better too so I don't look too different" Lol.
#304
Objectivity
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@Lunatic
Zaradi's whole case is just bad. Part of me still think he was backed into a corner yesterday and forced himself to contrive that piece of poop case, but it could be authentic. I don't think he has a stolid scum read outside of that though, and I am fairly suspicious of him, but trying to be open minded. I was inquisitive of Dani yesterday too, but I've dropped that because she pointed out she didn't realize there were no character claims. I think your quick switch of reads without much of your own thoughts injected is telling though. I am interested what specifically made you flip flop your reads, or did you just see two large blocks of text that mentioned "Lunatic" often and be like "Oh, looks like the crowds changing their minds, I better too so I don't look too different" Lol.

I've said like 3 times that I haven't had time to give a full explanation yet bc I was busy last night and am a bit busy today until the afternoon.  Also I've said that I have an alternate theory concerning YY and Zaradi being scum buddies which is another example of me not being agreeable since no one has mentioned that.  What do you think of that theory?
#305
Lunatic
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@Objectivity
I've said like 3 times that I haven't had time to give a full explanation yet bc I was busy last night and am a bit busy today until the afternoon.  Also I've said that I have an alternate theory concerning YY and Zaradi being scum buddies which is another example of me not being agreeable since no one has mentioned that.  What do you think of that theory?
I don't buy it. I still mostly townread YYW also based on him not doubling down about not reading the OP. Also I didn't get the vibe that they are overtly agreeing with each other this game. Maybe on the Lunatic read but prior to that YYW seemed skeptical of Zaradi. In fact, he was defending his town read on me against zaradi just a few pages earlier, and questioning zaradi about his reads. 

That said I don't find "buddying" a real scum tell anyway. It's such a known thing that I think mafia specifically stay away from that behavior and I think it's more likely that YYW is townsided doing it.
#306
Lunatic
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@coal
You scum read TUF based on 289,  but only "slight scum" read on Danielle, and yet Danielle is in your top 3 candidates for lynching but not TUF?

Explain.  Why are you not willing to VTL TUF?  Why are you more sure TUF is scum than Danielle, but TUF is not in your top 3 while Danielle is?  

Why isn't Ragnar or TUF your No. 1 lynch candidate?

Why aren't you VTLing? 

This is a very good point. lol and I don't buy objectivity's answer to this.
#307
Lunatic
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@Objectivity
TUF is not in my top 3 candidates for lynching because I agree with you and Dani that he is worth keeping around at least for DP1.  If we were lynching based solely on scum reads he would be my #1 and Dani would be bumped down to #4.

  Airmax is my no. 1 lynch candidate because of his inactivity.

I think this line of reasoning is so flawed. If dani is all the way at number four and me at 1, and you realize there is only two mafia, your basically okay with lynching 2 innocents over someone you claim to strongly believe is scum...

Makes 0 sense from a town perspective.
#308
Lunatic
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@Barney
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@airmax1227
Thoughts on objectivity wanting to lynch his number 4 scum read over his number 1 scum read based on his interpretation of the crowd thinking his number 1 scum read could be "useful dp1"?
#309
Objectivity
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@Lunatic
I'm okay with lynching people who may not be scum but have down anti town things on DP1.  I have nothing else to say until later except that I've repeated over and over that I don't have time to type out multiple paragraphs now but will have better and more complete reasoning later on.  You're not pressuring me to do anything I wasn't already going to do in a few hours lol
#310
Barney
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@Objectivity
I know they have a friendly relationship prior to this game which might explain why they seem to be agreeing with and amplifying each other so much, but could also be a scum tell on both of their parts.
I assume if they're hanging out in the scum chat, they would get a bit more of their energy off. I'd expect them to be a little more reserved regarding each other. So if I coded this into a list of restraints, I would tentatively rule them out as a scum pair.
#311
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@Lunatic
This post regards my thoughts on your post in 305.  

Objectivity is an inexperienced forum mafia player so if he is making mistakes relative to the meaning or significance of buddying, or even identifying whether that is happening in the first place, I am less concerned.  What concerns me about him is that he has not posted a list of reads that enables me to see where his head is at on what I see as the issues in the game.  So I am having to speculate about what he's thinking and why.  I don't like that because it's unreliable. 

I agree with what you said in response to him.  I was skeptical of Zaradi and I defended my prior town read of you up until fairly recently.  Objectivity missed that, or he didn't read fully.  If he missed it, then he was skimming, which means he is more likely to have an informed perspective because he already knows the difference between town and scum.  On the other hand, Objectivity was re-reading the posts as a series where he may not have appreciated the time differences in the evolution of my thinking; and because the volume of my posts in the thread most recently expresses agreement with Zaradi, and where he read the DP out of order, that could also explain the error from the perspective of an inexperienced townie.  

Independently of your comments on 305, I am increasingly concerned about the reads I am seeing and the reasons for them I am not seeing from objectivity.  However, he is not my main focus at the moment.  

What I would like to see from you is a complete list of reads, with reasons for them, and in particular a statement of who you prefer to lynch today (assuming it is not objectivity).  Assuming it is objectivity, then I need to better understand why your case against him is any stronger than Zaradi's case against you.  

I also would like to see more reasons why you disagree with the four people Danielle identified.  Specifically, if your preferred lynch today is Objectivity, why him and not the four Danielle identified? 
#312
Lunatic
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I don't get why people insist on insisting they will "type more later" when they have more availability over and over again. Just wait to post until you can type lol. 
#313
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@Lunatic
Zaradi is posting on a phone and I would rather him and others be active as opposed him or anyone else potentially on a phone lurk.  While I agree that I would prefer full analysis in the first instance, the mere fact of having activity is better than no activity at all. 
#314
Barney
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@Danielle
However I do find your post #272 to be a bit weird. "Regarding Airmax and Danielle: I am going to keep my fingers crossed that they're the scum team, and waited as a tactic to get us do their work for them. I know, highly unlikely. . . I assume Airmax doesn't suck at being scum, so I find his OMGUS joke to be a town sign."  You immediately unvoted Airmax and acknowledged his schedule, but then said you're keeping fingers crossed that he is scum. Then you said his post was a town sign and you doubt he'd play that way as mafia. If you think he's playing to a town meta then why would you be crossing fingers that he and I are scum...? Sounds like you are just looking at two people to focus on for the same easy reason which has already been addressed
I can do multiple things at once: 1. I cross my fingers for the very unlikely but most entertaining possibility to eventually reveal itself. 2. Admit that it is incredibly unlikely. 3. Activity place someone into my town pile.

Please point out the contradiction? 

Plus I hate to insult myself, but I'm way more careful than this when scum. Save for when I argue with people about math or bad quotations, I have end goals layering what I say; making them sound manufactured. Of course that I admit to this, means you may want to get the wine out.
#315
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@Barney
I really am getting tired of waiting for your list of reads and the reasons for them.  Everyone else, even and including probably the most clueless players here, have done so.  I know you aren't clueless and have thoughts so vocalize the with all deliberate speed.  
#316
Danielle
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Objectivity was criticized be a few people (me, Zaradi) for being very middle of the road and not taking an objective stance. Now he is asserting an objective list of 4 suspects but the reasoning is meh. I agree there are some flaws in his logic, but it almost feels town because of that since (if Objectivity is Adam) I don't think he would make such obvious discrepancies and also because it's natural for town to have some level of cognitive dissonance on DP1 given how little we have to go on. It's weird that Objectivity says "my explanation is bad" regarding my defense of that statement (paraphrasing) since I know he agrees with me that we have little to go on DP1 to start, and my presence has nothing to do with that. That's why he started the game by vtl Airmax for a  jovial reason (being a narc) and not a substantial or legitimate one. It was just random. 

@TUF, the reason some people say they will type more later and not just wait is because inactivity is read as a scum tell. Objectivity called me out for being online and not posting the night the game started (I debated making a post saying I would read the following day, and in hindsight, I guess I should have). I would probs think the same about my sus inactivity if I were Objectivity which is a slight town point for him. 

@Ragnar, I guess there is no contradiction in what you said per se, but it DID feel a bit manufactured - almost like you were looking for reasons to commit to pressuring Airmax and I. Inactivity is an easy way for scum to direct town's attention toward someone and mislynch for a legitimate reason. But I'm active now and if it's true I was 1 vote away from a lynch then I'm willing to move on for now. Did you post a list of reads yet or confirm who you'd be willing to lynch today? 

My strongest TR is coal and Zaradi, I dunno why (TUF, why are you focusing on him? Do you scum read him or are you just defending yourself against his accusations?). I don't wanna lynch Sui or Objectivity today, but Sui definitely needs to post and take a stand on who to lynch. I don't wanna lynch TUF today. Oro and Airmax please speak up and I'll bbl or later tonight. 
#317
Barney
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@Lunatic
I don't get why people insist on insisting they will "type more later" when they have more availability over and over again. Just wait to post until you can type lol. 
This game requires we have patience for peoples lives. Saying they'll post later, is making a commitment, even if it gets annoying to repeatedly read about when trying to catch up. The alternative is for them to seem pressured, and disappear and hope the situation resolves itself. So IMO it's making the best of a non-ideal situation.


#318
Lunatic
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@coal
What I would like to see from you is a complete list of reads, with reasons for them, and in particular a statement of who you prefer to lynch today (assuming it is not objectivity).  Assuming it is objectivity, then I need to better understand why your case against him is any stronger than Zaradi's case against you.  
I have posted reads, and can update them with slightly more detail, but not a ton. I am still wishy washy on a few of them. For example you interpreted my read on Zaradi wrong in your post 279. You bolded the part where I mention I thought his motivations for the lines of questioning earlier could be town affiliated, and included the part directly after where I outwardly wondered if they were contrived, but for some reason only focused on the bolded part where you thought I was town reading him lol. As it stands not a lot has changed on my read list, and I still don't have a definitive read for sui ragnar or oro. The statements made by them have mostly felt bland and meaningless, or don't seem scummy or town sided in particular to me, with a slight wave of town sided in favor of oro because his playstyle seems to match his playstyle in games I've seen him town (RE: South Park mafia). I am keeping open minded about most of my reads, and I latch on to things as I see them, as I did yesterday with Zaradi and Danielle. Now my focus is on Objectivity, his sudden switch of reads I think feels influenced by what he feels is less conspicuous or what the crowd would want. I feel like he is just trying to blend in, and was from the start. He town read me when a few others town read me, and scum read me when a couple others scum read me, really just seeming to go with the flow. Maybe it will help when he further elaborates his thoughts but that's my line of investigation as of right now. 

I also would like to see more reasons why you disagree with the four people Danielle identified.  
I never said I dis-agreed with the four people danielle identified. That's a mis-conception you picked up. My only point was to ask Danielle what her reasons for choosing those people were and to determine if her reasons were genuine, and what she expected out of the pressure. She had since responded that she wanted claims, but admitted to later realizing this was a themeless game.

Specifically, if your preferred lynch today is Objectivity, why him and not the four Danielle identified? 
I don't yet have a preferred lynch today yet, the game is only 2/4 days in. Objectivity's answers may satisfy me later who knows. I am in no rush. Even if it ends up coming to a no lynch, but we get a lot of dialogue going into Day 2, I will be fine with that. 
#319
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@Barney
We are now 316 posts into DP1 and you have yet to make more than one semi-substantive post in response to anything anyone has written.  You need to be more active or I am going to be very open to VTLing you because at this point it is looking to me like you are lurking while others go after each other benefitting from that disorder and chaos.  You aren't the only one, as Airmax is also doing the same thing; but it's now looking like either of you are the prime candidates at the moment. 
#320
Lunatic
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@Danielle
My strongest TR is coal and Zaradi, I dunno why (TUF, why are you focusing on him? Do you scum read him or are you just defending yourself against his accusations?).
Defending myself. His entire case seems built on a mis-conception between the interaction you and I had yesterday when I asked what your intentions of pressuring those four people. He and YYW both seem to take it as me being defensive of the four people or scared of pressure. Also neither of them seemed to see the part where you admitted you were trying to establish claims from the group before realizing this was a themeless game.
#321
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@airmax1227
Your inactivity is conspicuous and your analysis so far has been weak and inconsistent with your town meta.  Like I said with Ragnar, we are 320 posts into the DP and you have yet to make more than one semi-substantive post in response to anything that anyone has written.  You need to be more active or I will be at least as willing to lynch you as I am Ragnar, but at least he has posted something.  

I want your full list of reads immediately and an indication of why you think them; as well as the person who you think we should be lynching today and why.  If you disagree with Objectivity, I want an explanation as to why.  
#322
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TUF is looking more town now but he is overall neither town nor scum; null read.   My prior analysis still stands but I need to reflect more on TUF before committing to lynching.  This is of course subject to change but I am now disinclined to make TUF today's lynch candidate.  
#323
Danielle
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I agree with coal's message to Ragnar. @Ragnar you are responding to questions but not updating reads. Why not? What are they? This can be read as stalling which reads scummier than Airmax's inactivity. 

@TUF - Zaradi's suspicion of you based on that interaction with me gives him a little town cred IMO. You really are a good mafia role player and I think the explanation of his suspicion of you made sense. It doesn't mean you don't have a good reason for what you said, but I could see why he was intrigued by it. Unless you can justify tunneling TUF this dp based on something you caught, who else would you vote for? 

Ragnar, Airmax, Oro, Objectivity, Sui, TUF, Zaradi, coal is the order I'd prefer to pressure (lynch) right now. 

(Sorry, can't predict what my activity will be like before 8pm just cuz I dunno when to expect video calls from work.)  


#324
Lunatic
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I've kind of already went over these, but because people keep insinuating I have none, here they are. Most are tentative, and I don't have the same belief system that all determinations on a player must be solid at all times that some of you seem to have.

airmax1227- I don't expect much from him besides a hopeful 3-4 posts per day phase. His participation in this game was mostly due to pressure from Lucky and Myself, and his schedule doesn't allow him to play much. That said I will be more careful considering him this game than I was in the Office mafia, where I was constantly over-estimating his abilities and scum read him the whole game when he was in fact town. I think most of Max's deception comes into play in games he's more focused on, specifically live mafia. I am going to treat him more like an open book this go around.

Danielle- She hasn't done or said anything that has rubbed me wrong yet, and I am ultimately getting a "team player" vibe from her. She is most likely at this junction town, and I would prefer her in the town bloc.

coal- Still a town read from earlier, much for the same reasons. I was a bit flop floppy on him before, but I think I am settled into more of a town read at this point based on him displaying open mindedness and a genuine interest in scum hunting.

sui_generis- Undecided

Ragnar- Undecided

oromagi- Slight town, again never seen him as mafia and his play is reminding me of his play in South Park mafia so far where he was town.

Objectivity- Slightly suspicious as of right now. His play seems to be whatever answer pleases the crowd. His motivations make no sense. I think Coal caught him off guard with the question about his focus on Danielle despite her being the 4th on his list. Equally his answer made no sense. I don't buy any of the logic in the scum team between zaradi and coal. I just don't get where his brain is at in the slightest and until he elaborates further I am inclined to throw him in the scum pile.

Zaradi- Still don't think Zaradi is a town read. I am more null/light scum on him. I am getting the vibes he is trying to overcompensate into a tunnel vision read on me, as a defense mechanism for calling him out yesterday about contriving his reads. He has fed into his own confirmation bias and in building his case showed a lack of reading comprehension and interest at looking at virtually anyone else other than big ol' mean TUF who dared challenge him and wasn't victim to his intimidation tactics. I think this gives off more scum vibes than town vibes, and I don't get the feeling he genuinely is being open minded about who is town or scum. 






#325
Danielle
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Regarding Sui, I feel like he could have jumped on my inactivity if he were scum (knowing I said I was having a hard time getting online) but didn't which is why he is where he is on my list. However he does need to post definitive reads ASAP like I said. 
#326
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@Danielle
Unless you can justify tunneling TUF this dp based on something you caught, who else would you vote for? 
I am confused by this, can you re-phrase the question?
#327
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@Lunatic
Actually, I want to revise my list. If Airmax had to be pressured by the mod to play, then I doubt the mod would make him mafia (I don't recall if Lucky said the roles were randomly assigned or not, but I don't believe it anyways). If he thought might have to replace Airmax, I doubt he would have made him scum. Just something to think about since I do engage in some mod psych where appropriate.

@TUF - What I meant to Zaradi was that his focus on you seems like a waste of time since multiple people have already said they don't wanna lynch you today. Unless he wants to tunnel (make a strong case against you to get you lynched, specifically) he needs to post reads about other people. So far I only recall him making reads about you. 
#328
Objectivity
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Complete list of reads with explanation:

 Lunatic- Scum read

  He has not really done much to generate discussion so far outside of trying to bus me in the last page after he has faced intense pressure.  If anything, all he has done is criticize others methods to generate discussion (coal trying to get people to role claim, zaradi, etc.).   He objects to the method of VTLing someone to pressure them in to producing content, except when he did it to Dani 30-40 minutes in to the game starting on the first page.  After Dani suggests pressuring him or Ragnar, he doesn't seem to like the idea of pressuring people with a VTL without a thorough explanation, which once again, he did not provide when he pressured Dani.  The vast majority of his efforts so far seem less aimed at producing content than frustrating the efforts of the primary people who have been trying to produce content (coal/zaradi).  I don't really remember TUF's play style though I have played live with him a few times, but he seems to generate a lot of infighting.  Not really pro town.

  Ragnar- Slight scum read

    Mostly flied under the radar yesterday with no meaningful contribution.  Seemed to post just enough to be active but not enough to say anything that would generate suspicion or contribute substantially to the game.

 Danielle- Neutral for now

  Think I've explained this enough above.  Her initial actions were anti town (inactivity and proposing a DP1 no lynch) but there is an innocent explanation for both that I accept for the time being.

  Sui- Town.    He hasn't really offered any strong takes yet but seems interested in collecting information that will be useful later on as well as trying to read meaning in to other people's post to figure out if they are scum or not.  He's posted his reads twice but hasn't offered any sort of explanation for them as far as I can see, or if he has its only been a few words.  More detailed reads would be nice

 coal- Town.    He is probably the person I've played mafia with the most in here and his actions seem consistent with his town meta.  I think he is equally active when he is town and scum, but rather than driving the narrative when he is scum, he tries to derail it if it would lead somewhere useful.  Haven't really seen him do that yet.  I don't like that he said he was considering not checking his role PM but I know he's done it in other games where he is town so I suppose it gets a pass.  

 Zaradi- Town.  The other aggressive/active person so far.  I agree with TUF that his initial reasoning for scum reading him was sketchy, but I think what TUF has done to defend himself since has been more revealing than anything else, and it seems like based on Zaradi's other behavior, this was likely his intent anyways (to get TUF talking more to get a better read on him), so I don't think he is trying to pressure TUF for sketchy reasons.  He pressured TUF and what has been revealed is fairly illuminating so far

Airmax- Neutral.  Not really scum reading or town reading him due to inactivity but I'd still gladly lynch him unless we have a strong scum read by tomorrow night or friday morning, just because inactivity is anti town


  oromagi- Town.   Based on his interactions so far I'd say town, but he kind of flew under the radar a lot of yesterday.  Random voting/VTLing based on activity early on drew some suspicion towards him but it seemed like an earnest mistake.  Hopefully he gives a list of reads with explanations soon.  
  
  
  In my defense:

 1) I have never played forum mafia so what YY has said about certain mistakes being made due to inexperience is correct

 2) I have repeated multiple times why up until now I did not give complete reads with an explanation (was busy last night and this morning)

 3) I haven't given very bold accusations yet  (outside of the Dani push after people had already accepted her explanation) but neither has oromagi or sui but TUF is not scum reading them yet.  Seems like a defensive move but I am not going to go so far as to say that his accusation is total deflection, because there were valid reasons to pressure me up to this point since I was inactive last night.
 
 
#329
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@Danielle
@TUF, the reason some people say they will type more later and not just wait is because inactivity is read as a scum tell. Objectivity called me out for being online and not posting the night the game started (I debated making a post saying I would read the following day, and in hindsight, I guess I should have). I would probs think the same about my sus inactivity if I were Objectivity which is a slight town point for him. 

  this tbh
#330
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@Danielle
@TUF - What I meant to Zaradi was that his focus on you seems like a waste of time since multiple people have already said they don't wanna lynch you today. Unless he wants to tunnel (make a strong case against you to get you lynched, specifically) he needs to post reads about other people. So far I only recall him making reads about you. 
Yeah I agree entirely