Water Baptism: What's the big deal?

Author: RoderickSpode 4 years ago

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Total: 71

#31

Athias

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Athias

04.13.2020 06:57PM

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@EtrnlVw

I always thought it was two individual processes, one.... Baptism being an outward confession or commitment with there being an outward ritual or sign and two....the baptism of the Spirit which is an internal process or undergoing with an internal commitment or sign. Kind of like a marriage per say where there is an outward ceremony or binding and then of course there is the binding of the two with inward commitments involving their love but I could be wrong of course. I was Baptized with water as a young kid so maybe I'm just partial to it. But my intentions were pretty much the above.

The testimonial would count as part of the ritualistic aspect of Baptism, but that is more a matter of custom and reaffirmation of a spiritual community--which I'm not arguing has fault. Baptism would meet the latter part of your description.

(I too was baptized as a child by being submerged into water. Unfortunately, I didn't understand the Luciferian symbolism in this ritual back then.)

Okay I see what you're saying and I don't necessarily disagree yet, but are you saying that John never literally Baptized Jesus in water?

No. I'm saying that the association of water to Baptism is being used to manipulate Christian rituals with Luciferian undertones. Jesus was baptized in a body of water (though he was never mentioned to have submerged in it) because the ancient Hebrews had a practice of entering bodies of water to "spiritually wash" themselves. Bodies of water had a spiritual significance but it was never necessary to be Baptized, exemplified by John himself. John had accepted God completely, which is the reason Jesus rebuffed John's supplication to be baptized.

#32

EtrnlVw

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EtrnlVw

04.13.2020 07:11PM

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@Athias

(I too was baptized as a child by being submerged into water. Unfortunately, I didn't understand the Luciferian symbolism in this ritual back then.)

I could do it on my own, but since you've educated yourself could you supply a link for that Luciferian ritual? you got my interest...

BTW, the practice of Catholic Priests baptizing babies makes my stomach ill, some of the things these guys do is pretty sick...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxE--jAIiQ8

Watch this idiot slap this baby...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B63kNwqRSRk

#33

Athias

Debates: 20

Posts: 3,192

Athias

04.13.2020 08:00PM

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@EtrnlVw

I could do it on my own, but since you've educated yourself could you supply a link for that Luciferian ritual?

You're not going to find much information on links. Most of the information I'm submitting is from books written by or involved people heavily involved in Luciferianism, Masonry, depositions on Magisterial Privilege, associations with the Roman Catholic Church, Kemetic, Semetic, Greek, Norse, and Roman history, religion, and mythology, etc. I'll compile a reading list for you when I go through my books.

BTW, the practice of Catholic Priests baptizing babies makes my stomach ill, some of the things these guys do is pretty sick...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGHerqhSC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxE--jAIiQ8

Watch this idiot slap this baby...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B63kNwqRSRk

That's not the worst they do to small children. Look up "Magisterial Privilege" where there were depositions made in a court case in 2013 in Brussels which delineated that every new pope must abuse, drink the blood of, and sacrifice infants and small children. That's the reason Pope Ratzinger a.k.a. Pope Benedict XVI was forced to retire in the same month of the investigations.

#34

Melcharaz

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Posts: 780

Melcharaz

04.13.2020 09:30PM

John 3:3-7 comes before john 3:16. Also colossians 2:8-13

#35

EtrnlVw

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Posts: 2,869

EtrnlVw

04.13.2020 10:57PM

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@Athias

You're not going to find much information on links. Most of the information I'm submitting is from books written by or involved people heavily involved in Luciferianism, Masonry, depositions on Magisterial Privilege, associations with the Roman Catholic Church, Kemetic, Semetic, Greek, Norse, and Roman history, religion, and mythology, etc. I'll compile a reading list for you when I go through my books.

Okay got it, thanks for the offer.

That's not the worst they do to small children. Look up "Magisterial Privilege" where there were depositions made in a court case in 2013 in Brussels which delineated that every new pope must abuse, drink the blood of, and sacrifice infants and small children. That's the reason Pope Ratzinger a.k.a. Pope Benedict XVI was forced to retire in the same month of the investigations.

Wow, although shocking it shouldn't surprise me really, those people's demeanor is outright demonic and disturbing. Amazing how powerful they got, could you imagine sending your children and supporting them with money thinking your raising your kids in a Godly way only to be putting them in the company of wolves and demons? scary stuff. Not to mention all the child molestation that goes on, I mean this shyt needs to be stopped.

#36

Stephen

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Stephen

04.14.2020 10:29AM

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@RoderickSpode

So was John the Baptist baptised or not?
Like I said, the Bible doesn't reveal that info.

yes it does.

I think the problem is you're trying to turn this into a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

No I am not. Stop looking for a get out. if you don't know then simply say so. stop looking for excuses and trying to blame me for your own biblical ignorance. You have stated to me that John the Baptist was "confused and didn't recognise Jesus at first. I have shown you to be wrong and that John recognised him immediately.>>>>> John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world"<<<<<<.

And it was the Egg that came before the chicken anyone knows that.

Water Baptism may not have been required of him. Are you of the opinion that if a man stranded on a deserted island becomes a believer, he cannot ultimately be saved because there's no one else on the island to Baptize him?

No. Please stop the convolution and misrepresenting what I have clearly asked. It was a simply question that I have eventually answered for you. Jesus makes it clear that John was baptised . Matthew 21:25

John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”;

yet appeared confused telling Jesus that he - Jesus- should be baptising him - John, Why?

And so far you haven't explained what is was that caused John to even believe that Jesus should be baptizing him in the first place?Matthew 3:13
Sorry to try and answer your question with another question, but do you see any connection here?

No. So just answer the question and stop digressing , please.

Imagine a priest in a Catholic church confessional booth,[.......................]

This has nothing at all to do with WHY John the Baptist believed that it was Jesus who should be baptising him. Just say you don't know and stop trying to make things up on the hoof. They are piss poor scenarios that go absolutely nowhere.

Not John "the greatest man" born of woman and ""more than a prophet" .
Being the greatest man didn't mean he was perfect. Moses was the most humblest man. He still had his problems.

So you keep saying, but if you are going to keep falling back on that old chestnut of an excuse every time your stumped to answer pretty straightforward question, then you alone throw the whole of the scriptures into disrepute. Including its authors and everything they are believed to have wrote.

So that is a non answer then. You don't know why John refused Jesus a baptism and you are struggling to explain why John believed that it was supposed to be the other way around and that Jesus should baptise him.

John did not refuse to Baptize Jesus. And if I'm struggling, it's just trying to explain it in a way you'll understand.

Now you are refuting what the bible itself states. Lets have another look shall we; In Matthew 3:14 and depending on which bible one chooses, states that John either tried to ; deter , prevent, hinder, prevent ,or forbid Jesus to be baptised.

"But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me"?

No, that would be John the baptist himself who turned out to be the skeptic when locked up in Herod's cell, wasn't it.?

"When John, who was in prison, he'd heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”.Matthew 11:1-3

Really!?

Yes. [.......] Are you still having a problem with the notion of John although being the greatest, was still not perfect?

If anyone is having problems it is you. And your full blown denials of the bleedin` obvious. Putting the biblical fact aside that JESUS HIMSELF had said "John was the greatest of all born of woman". John seen the descending dove. John kicked with excitement in the womb. He had recognized Jesus as the messiah immediately, and John was told directly by god that this - Jesus- was the one to come, saying, "this is my son and I love him and I am well pleased” Matthew 3:17

Well we don't know that, but if that was the case, why then would he even think that Jesus should baptise him a second time?

If John thought he needed to be baptized a second time (like if he somehow knew in the womb he was Baptized in the Holy Spirit), don't you think he would have had a fellow believer Baptize him (to make it ceremonially official)?

Then why even wait all those years for Jesus to come onto the scene to ask Jesus. And again, what ever caused him to believe it should have been the other way around in the first place.

It's apparent that what John meant was, if anyone should be doing the baptizing between you and I, I should be the one baptized by you.

Well it was "apparent" to John was it. Or have you forgotten already that John either tried to ; deter , prevent, hinder, prevent ,or forbid Jesus to be baptised.

"But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me"?Matthew 3:14

And is there a single piece of biblical evidence to support that? and you appear to have skirted your own explanation where you state:
"It is a symbol of being washed, cleansed, and made pure". So this hardly explains my question of why the Only Son of god would need to be cleansed, washed and made pure, does it.

Yes, I do think there's evidence to support that. Jesus' life was all about obedience to the Father.

Phillippians 2:8
And being found in the fashion of a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death—even the death of the cross.

Sorry but that pointless and irrelevant verse goes nowhere in answering why the son of god would need to be "washed, cleansed, and made pure".

I don't think I made any reference to John's mentioning of water during Baptism.

Maybe not John, but the scripture certainly does,.doesn't it. But you want to insist that it has nothing to do with washing away sins , yet i have shown you biblical evidence to the contrary. Washing does involve water.

Six times you mention baptism /abidance. Yet the gospels NEVER MENTION OBEDIENCE along with baptism , they tell us something entirely different. I did read your op, but have you read the scriptures?

And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)

“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea
and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)

“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)

You see? it has EVERYTHING to do with forgiveness of sins and washing away sins. Not a single mention of "obedience".

You gave 3 verses that are direct commands to be Baptized, and you don't think obedience plays a part here? Wow! Was this apparent command actually optional?

Never mind being flippant. Those verses tell us all what baptism is all about and there is no mention of ` come be obedient and have your sins washed away in the water".

You just make up crap and don't expect to be challenged on what you preach. You don't like it when someone has the audacity to challenge you or your scripture. this is a religion discussion forum not a preachers pulpit.

Topic's author

#37

RoderickSpode

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RoderickSpode

04.14.2020 05:07PM

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@Stephen

Never mind being flippant. Those verses tell us all what baptism is all about and there is no mention of ` come be obedient and have your sins washed away in the water".

You just make up crap and don't expect to be challenged on what you preach. You don't like it when someone has the audacity to challenge you or your scripture. this is a religion discussion forum not a preachers pulpit.

Not at all. Makes no difference to me.

You just wasted time re-posting this. The reason I didn't respond the first time is because I think you twisted everything I said. I'm not going to be a sounding board for your personal anger.

Our iconversation has become a complete mess. If you want to continue the conversation, I'll leave it to you to do the clean-up. A good way to start

would be looking back on every post you made where you said "you said", and ask yourself "did he really say that?" And if you're not sure, a proper way to address it would be to ask for clarification.

Whether or not you do this is up to you. It's not a plea. I don't really care either way.

#38

Stephen

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Stephen

04.16.2020 07:52AM

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@RoderickSpode

Our iconversation has become a complete mess.

All caused by your own non answers and complete inability to accept that you have been totally wrong on many points and your inability to accept the facts as presented in the scriptures themselves. I have shown you what a complete farce if not fabrication that the baptism of Jesus story actually is.

John was told by god himself who Jesus was, yet had seriously doubted if or not he had baptised the right person and after himself recognized Jesus as the messiah.

You have failed to simply answer why John the Baptist even thought that it should be Jesus baptising him?

where you said "you said",

"You said" the bible doesn't say if or not John himself was baptize. I showed you that Jesus himself says he was.>>>>> "John's baptism--where did it come from"? Matthew 21:25.

Or have you conveniently forgotten this.

So was John the Baptist baptised or not?

Like I said, the Bible doesn't reveal that info.

And I replied

yes it does.

"You said" Johns confusion as to who should be baptising who came about because he was "overwhelmed" . But again I have shown you that John recognized Jesus straightaway as being the messiah and simply was not confused at all:

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

And there is more on your alleged "confusion" of John.

John not only recognized Jesus straightaway, he also seen the "dove from heaven" confiming Jesus to be "the one" , he heard the voice of god himself confirming that this was his son. he jumped in the womb with excitement when Mary approached Elizabeth who was carrying him. And this is not to mention that John was from that same place that Jesus himself had stayed many times and made his base; Bethany by the Jordan where John did his ministry including baptism.

But then once locked up,he had serious doubts and sent some of own disciples to ask Jesus was he the one to come or should we look for another.. And this all makes sense to you does it.

I am certainly not concerned if you do or do not answer a single question. I am happy in the knowledge that I know you simply can't and that I can highlight these biblical anomalies.

PS. "You said" many things that I have queried if not debunked on this thread.

#39

Tradesecret

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Tradesecret

04.16.2020 11:19AM

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@RoderickSpode

I assume you are talking about the symbol of baptism and not the baptism itself. After all, water baptism only represents real baptism.

Topic's author

#40

RoderickSpode

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RoderickSpode

04.16.2020 12:45PM

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@Tradesecret

That's correct. That is, I'm not talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

#41

Tyran_Orex

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Tyran_Orex

04.17.2020 01:10PM

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@Tradesecret

I assume you are talking about the symbol of baptism and not the baptism itself. After all, water baptism only represents real baptism.

Isn't any form of baptism symbolic anyway?

#42

EtrnlVw

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EtrnlVw

04.17.2020 02:15PM

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@Tyran_Orex

Isn't any form of baptism symbolic anyway?

A normal question without prefacing, blanket statements, assertions and insults? (Holy sht) wait...this is Willy right?

#43

Tyran_Orex

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Posts: 12

Tyran_Orex

04.18.2020 12:29AM

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@EtrnlVw

A normal question without prefacing, blanket statements, assertions and insults? (Holy sht) wait..

I would not have thought that misspelt excrement could be baptised.

27 days later

#44

DeusVult

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Posts: 107

DeusVult

05.15.2020 05:20AM

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@RoderickSpode

Baptism is more than symbolic. It is entry (birth) into the body Christ which is necessary for salvation.

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. - 1 Peter 1:23

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. - 1 Coritnthins 12:13

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17

having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. - Colossians 2:12

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. - Romans 6:3-4

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. - Galatians 3:27

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, - Titus 3:5

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. - Mark 16:16

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. - Acts 16:31-33

Peter himself noted that baptism was more than symbolic, it actually forgave sin:

Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38

This washing with water was prefigured by the great flood with Noah

who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. - 1 Peter 3:20

The Apostles and early Church clearly saw baptism as more than symbolic, it was essential to salvation.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, - Matthew 28:19

#45

PGA2.0

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PGA2.0

05.15.2020 08:20PM

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@RoderickSpode

Water baptism is an identification with Christ the Lord. Submersion is the washing away of the old life and coming out of the water signifies rebirth and spiritual resurrection from the dead to new life.

Topic's author

#46

RoderickSpode

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RoderickSpode

05.15.2020 09:43PM

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@DeusVult

It's kind of tough to figure out where we actually disagree. I agree it's necessary for salvation, but the water itself does not act as a cleansing agent (like soap and water). Some can be saved if they were never baptized depending on circumstances (no availability of water, someone repenting right before passing, a child being younger than the age of accountability, someone mentally handicapped, someone from a remote tribe who's never heard the Gospel but accepts the revelation of Christ through nature, etc.).

#47

DeusVult

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DeusVult

05.15.2020 09:53PM

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@RoderickSpode

Well it is a spiritual cleansing agent!

Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38

The very act of baptism forgives sin.

There was considerable historical debate as to whether children under the age of reason or the mentally handicapped required baptism as they would be free of personal sin, but still stained with original sin. This is where the theological concept of Limbo came from.

#48

Stephen

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Stephen

05.17.2020 12:21PM

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@DeusVult

[A] The very act of baptism forgives sin.

Not according to the forum religious and bible expert , it isn't.

Stephen wrote: "Some say it also washes away our sins.

ETHANG5 wrote: Our genius thinks baptism is for remission of sins"

And when the forum expert ethang5 was confronted with BIBLICAL evidence that he was clearly wrong, he , for reasons known only to him, simple disappeared. But not before suggesting the bible was wrong.

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)

“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)

“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)

Those verses clearly show you to be correct at [A] above.

Topic's author

#49

RoderickSpode

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RoderickSpode

05.17.2020 05:09PM

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@DeusVult

Well it is a spiritual cleansing agent!

Then it wouldn't really matter who was baptized right?

In other words, if the water became a cleansing agent during baptismal ceremonies, anyone would be spiritually cleansed if baptized even if they weren't a believer.

The waters in the pool of Bethesda (and possibly the pool of Siloam) would heal anyone who stepped into the pool after an angel stirred the water. At least the text doesn't indicate prior mandatory repentance.

The very act of baptism forgives sin.

What if someone repents, and then dies on the way to baptism?

There was considerable historical debate as to whether children under the age of reason or the mentally handicapped required baptism as they would be free of personal sin, but still stained with original sin. This is where the theological concept of Limbo came from.

Is there any reference to Limbo in scripture?

#50

DeusVult

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DeusVult

05.18.2020 07:25PM

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@RoderickSpode

In other words, if the water became a cleansing agent during baptismal ceremonies, anyone would be spiritually cleansed if baptized even if they weren't a believer.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If it is an adult who refuses baptism yet are baptized, they have not been baptized. If it is an infant, on whom the parents act on behalf of the child, then yes.

What if someone repents, and then dies on the way to baptism?

Baptism of desire. The Church has long taught it.

Is there any reference to Limbo in scripture?

It would be viewed as Abraham's Bosom.

“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. - Luke 16:22

A place of 'natural' happiness.

Topic's author

#51

RoderickSpode

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RoderickSpode

05.18.2020 09:50PM

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@DeusVult

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If it is an adult who refuses baptism yet are baptized, they have not been baptized. If it is an infant, on whom the parents act on behalf of the child, then yes.

I'm not sure what you mean by refuses baptism, yet are baptized. Do you mean against their will? What about someone wanting to be baptized (maybe for the sake of family, denominational tradition), but is agnostic?

Baptism of desire. The Church has long taught it.

That part doesn't differ much from my view. When someone is found by Christ, becomes a child of God, they will want to be baptized. It would be a contradiction to be thankful for salvation, yet refuse the command to be baptized.

I don't see any scriptural need to suggest that at the right moment, under right conditions of thought and attitude, in the right spot (vicinity of body of water where baptism is taking place), the water itself becomes a divine detergent. Not that it's impossible, as I think it's clear that the pool at Bethesda had a divine miraculous quality.

It would be viewed as Abraham's Bosom.

“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. - Luke 16:22

A place of 'natural' happiness.

Do they view Abraham's Bosom as a temporary abode before God determines where one will spend eternity?

#52

DeusVult

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DeusVult

05.18.2020 10:48PM

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@RoderickSpode

I'm not sure what you mean by refuses baptism, yet are baptized. Do you mean against their will? What about someone wanting to be baptized (maybe for the sake of family, denominational tradition), but is agnostic?

Let's say that my friend who isn't Christian is in a horrible car accident and is unconscious and bleeding out. Should a Christian baptize them to save them? It wouldn't be effective if they didn't previously express a desire - hence why you shouldn't.

That part doesn't differ much from my view. When someone is found by Christ, becomes a child of God, they will want to be baptized. It would be a contradiction to be thankful for salvation, yet refuse the command to be baptized.

There are Christians who only have altar calls. Some will never get baptized because they don't feel there is a need to do so.

I think we might differ on infant baptisms. The child is not yet able to express such a desire, yet the parents baptize the child making him/her a member of the body of Christ and removing the stain of original sin from them.

Do they view Abraham's Bosom as a temporary abode before God determines where one will spend eternity?

This is where it becomes a theological debate. Are there some who stay there forever? Are there some that go to heaven? If they all go to heaven, does that mean the greatest thing in the world to do is to abort a child because it means a one way trip to heaven? Can some be rescued from there? These things are above my pay grade.

#53

Stephen

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Stephen

05.19.2020 03:47PM

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@DeusVult

Are there some that go to heaven?

Where is heaven.? What is heaven and what does anyone who manages to get there do once they are there?

#54

DeusVult

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DeusVult

05.19.2020 04:57PM

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@Stephen

Where is heaven.?

There, not here.

What is heaven and what does anyone who manages to get there do once they are there?

Heaven is being in the presence of God. Eye has not seen and ear has not heard.

#55

Stephen

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Stephen

05.20.2020 06:29AM

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@DeusVult

Where is heaven.?
There, not here.

And where is "there" that is "not here" , located?

What is heaven and what does anyone who manages to get there do once they are there?
Heaven is being in the presence of God. Eye has not seen and ear has not heard.

Ok, that is what it is. But I also asked - what does one do when one gets to "there" that is "not here" ?

Why are you finding this question so difficult?

#56

DeusVult

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DeusVult

05.20.2020 03:39PM

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@Stephen

And where is "there" that is "not here" , located?

Beyond creation (here), in the presence of God "there".

Ok, that is what it is. But I also asked - what does one do when one gets to "there" that is "not here" ?

Why are you finding this question so difficult?

It is because you are not actually interested. You ask disingenuous questions. I gave you the exact words of the Bible:

THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,

AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,

ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.

How can one express an existence that will be unlike any that can be experienced here. The theology of it is best expressed by St. Augustine:

Our heart is restless until it rests in you.

In heaven you will have the beatific vision - which is seeing God's face and you will spend eternity loving, worshiping and contemplating God. It is a state of perfect happiness because this is the reason for which you were created.

#57

Stephen

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Stephen

05.20.2020 04:03PM

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@DeusVult

And where is "there" that is "not here" , located?
Beyond creation (here), in the presence of God "there".

So you don't know. It would be nice if you Christians would just for once, admit that you simply do not know , when you do not know.

Ok, that is what it is. But I also asked - what does one do when one gets to "there" that is "not here" ?

Why are you finding this question so difficult?
It is because you are not actually interested. You ask disingenuous questions. I gave you the exact words of the Bible:

So, you also do not know what it is people do when and if they manage to get to this heavenly place. You just spout crap that you have had drummed into you since childhood. Isn't it about time you " put away your childish things"?

How can one express an existence that will be unlike any that can be experienced here.

So you don't know. After 2,000 years you don't know the answer to either of those questions above.

In heaven you will have the beatific vision - which is seeing God's face and you will spend eternity loving, worshiping and contemplating God.

I have to admit that doesn't sound to exciting. But how do you know this?

It is a state of perfect happiness because this is the reason for which you were created.

I haven't asked you about the "state" of those that manage to get to this heavenly place that you know absolutely nothing about or where it is even located. I asked what do one do to occupy one's self "for all eternity"

#58

DeusVult

Debates: 0

Posts: 107

DeusVult

05.20.2020 05:24PM

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@Stephen

So you don't know. It would be nice if you Christians would just for once, admit that you simply do not know , when you do not know.

HAHAHAHAHA... you are so two faced. You demand answers and when I provide all the knowledge that can be known about something you say that I refuse to acknowledge the limits of what can be known.

So you don't know. After 2,000 years you don't know the answer to either of those questions above.

Once again we were told that eye has not seen and ear has not heard - you claim that we make stuff up, but when we tell you all that we've been told you get upset? Sooooooo now you want answers to questions that cannot be answered. Make up your mind.

I have to admit that doesn't sound to exciting. But how do you know this?

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads... the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, - Revelation 4:4&10

Once again, the extent of what we've been told.

#59

Stephen

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,624

Stephen

05.21.2020 05:52AM

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@DeusVult

So you don't know. It would be nice if you Christians would just for once, admit that you simply do not know , when you do not know.
You demand answers and when I provide all the knowledge that can be known about something

You really area confused person aren't you. Telling me what you know and "providing all the knowledge" that you believe know is not answering questions. It is simply you giving me responses and replies but not answers that go nowhere in answering with sound, logical and certainly not a factual evidence. You simply present what it is you believe you know as fact.

you say that I refuse to acknowledge the limits of what can be known.

Where have I said that. You simply cannot tell me where "heaven is" or what a person does when he/she gets there. So you just make shite up. You have had thousands of years to come up with logical and provable evidence to support what it is you believe and claim " you know"; and you still cannot answer what should be for you by now, simple basic questions.

but when we tell you all that we've been told you get upset?

Quite the opposite. I find your non replies hilarious at times. Told by who???

I have to admit that doesn't sound to exciting. But how do you know this?
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads... the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, - Revelation 4:4&10

So is all you are saying is that the bible told you - and you simply believe what the bible says? That is a yes or no question.

Once again, the extent of what we've been told.

By the bible?

#60

zedvictor4

Debates: 22

Posts: 12,085

zedvictor4

05.21.2020 06:07AM

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@DeusVult

So story tellers tell you things.

Around the throne etc.

Stuff of classic fantasy tales and yet accepted as true.

So a story teller told us of a place called Middle Earth. Are we therefore expected to accept Middle Earth as fact also.