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@HistoryBuff
So you think that entire industries that have been completely wiped out will simply spring out of nothing over night?
AOC Demands Illegal Invaders get their "fair share"
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@HistoryBuff
lol now i am 100% you have little understanding of how trade works. There is no chance america could successfully become completely self sufficient. It would obliterate the standard of living of 95% of the population and cause mass riots.
Then you have no understanding of human ingenuity. For fuck's sake we can grow avocados in hydroponic farms. What the fuck do we need other countries for? Fossil fuels? Nope. Rare minerals? Nope. Rare foods? Nope. We can even grow our own illegal drugs.
Sure people might riot for a few months as they did recently over the toilet paper...if you want to call that a "riot", but supply will be there in a matter of months, not decades. This isn't some backward banana republic that refuses to allow new industry. We are rated in the top 10 for economic freedom for new business owners. The riots you are thinking of won't ever happen here when most people know there is a buck to be made supplying a demand. So what if China cuts us off from medicine. We got this in a matter of months, just like anything else we used to get from China.
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@Greyparrot
you missed my point. I didn't say america couldn't do those things, I said it would destroy the standard of living of most of the population. Avacados grown in a hydroponic farm cost several times as much. If america had to try to rebuild those industries from scratch, it would cost a fortune. The vast majority of the population would see their standard of living shattered over night. That is the sort of thing that starts a revolution.Then you have no understanding of human ingenuity. For fuck's sake we can grow avocados in hydroponic farms. What the fuck do we need other countries for? Fossil fuels? Nope. Rare minerals? Nope. Rare foods? Nope. We can even grow our own illegal drugs.
So what if China cuts us off from medicine. We got this in a matter of months, just like anything else we used to get from China.
this is just sad. Do you have any idea how long it takes to set up of manufacturing and testing process to create all these things. It took decades to ship it all to china. It would take years, maybe decades to try to put it back. And during those years most of the population would struggling to survive as the rich continue to consume all the resources (as they always do).
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@HistoryBuff
this is just sad. Do you have any idea how long it takes to set up of manufacturing and testing process to create all these things.
Watch this video clip
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@HistoryBuff
Immigrants are paying for houses, rent etc. They are not squatters.
This is the red herring, to get us talking about how much the invader pays rather than how he should not be there in the first place. What he pays is immaterial.
They are not squatters.
They ARE squatters. They have illegally entered our house and are trying to stay against our will.
They are also paying taxes when they are completely unable to receive any services for those taxes they are paying.
You can't be this stupid. How can a squatter tell you he he deserves services because he paid some of your light bill? Did we ask them for assistance? He broke in, pretended to be owner of the house, and paid the light bill. That doesn't entitle him to any service.
But the right loves to whine about how much money immigrants cost america, then want to quickly change the subject when you point out how much money america makes in taxes off of them when they can't draw on any of the services they are paying taxes for.
Because the idea that illegal squatters deserve service simply because they played is ludicrous. You want to talk about what they pay because you subscribe to the ridiculous notion that paying taxes somehow erases their illegal squatter status.
Your argument appears to be to target the poor people trying to earn a living.
Please stop the dishonesty. I am targeting people who have broken the law. Being poor does not excuse you. Thousands of poor people never become criminals.
But they aren't the problem.
They definitely are one of the problems.
The problem is the thousands of american companies that love to hire them and exploit them.
They get fake ID's and false documents to do so. Are they responsible for their own behavior? But still, this is a separate problem. The companies cannot exploit them until they have entered illegally.
If you actually cared about stopping illegal immigrants, you would be advocating for the imprisonment of the people hiring them and exploiting them.
Dumb. If there were no illegal aliens, there would be no one to hire and exploit.
...trump would be on that list.
So would many of your liberal idols who would have been fooled by the fake ID's and hampered by liberal policies that make it illegal to demand verification of citizenship.
this assumes that the immigration system is in any way tied to market forces, which it isn't. It is controlled by a partisan political system.
You must mean democrats. But everything is tied to the market system.
So this is absolutely not what would happen.
You must not have taken economics in college. That is exactly what would happen.
..the price of american food products would go up
First, American food products are already generally higher than foreign products because of higher wages and higher quality. Second, food prices are always going up anyway.
Making foreign food products much more cost effective. No one would buy american food products....
That is a logical leap. Fewer people would buy American food products, not no one. And the market would adjust by reducing prices.
and large segments of the american agriculture industry would collapse, as well as lots of other industries.
Bolderdash. The American food industry is huge with many different companies. The market would simply produce less to cut cost and increase demand, or newer, smaller companies will innovate, but demand will be met by American business.
...neither republican politicians nor the democratic establishment actually give a shit about immigrants or working class people in general.
True, but republicans don't want them here draining the resources of our country and bastardizing our culture, while democrats don't mind killing the country to use illegal immigrants for a political leg up.
Are you ok with all of america's industries being shipped overseas?
Isn't this glorious? HB is advocating Trumps argument! Both you and Trump don't want American industries shipped overseas, AND think illegal immigrants are the way to prevent that. You and Trump agree. Imagine that!
America's industries moved overseas because they were hogtied by the business hostile policies of liberals.
We do not need illegal immigrants to be great. That is just a lie democrats tell. Our businesses would not collapse if illegals were kept out. The market, as always, would adjust and adapt. The government, if it had sensible policies like Trump practices, would protect local industries from dumping by 3rd world countries, and America would be fine.
But bottom line, the point that liberals want to avoid at any cost, is that illegal immigrants should not be in country, and their being here does not entitle them to any government service except free transportation back to their home country.
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@HistoryBuff
So you are fine with large sectors of the american economy collapsing?
Welcome to 1865
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@ILikePie5
Democrats, defending slave labor for generations.
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@Greyparrot
Democrats, defending slave labor for generations.
lol because bringing immigrants into a nation where virtually everyone is descended from immigrants means that I support slavery. I understand right wing people love to use straw man arguments, but this is just sad.
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@HistoryBuff
Yah, cause the Native Americans put the pilgrims to work immediately on their corporate agriculture. Stop being a fuckstick apologist for slave wage corporations.
You claim to like Bernie Sanders but go completely deaf when Bernie says open borders is a corporate Koch Brothers policy, cause crony capitalist establishment Democrats AND crony establishment RINO Republicans have programmed you to ignore that.
I really used to like Bernie almost as much as Trump for fighting the establishment before he clearly sold out to the establishment.
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@Greyparrot
it sounds like some kind of syndrome, this warped sense or need to take care of destitute people like they were pets, my guess it makes them feel needed, useful, important etc. otherwise wouldn't they demand their governments do better for their own citizens? It's a very small percentage of people who actually make it to the U.S. What about those still in the shithole countries they came from? No crumbs for them?
do they really want what's fair for illegals? Doesn't really seem like it based on the priorities they spew on the news. That is they don't care enough to fight to fix the root of the problem. The corrupt governments and cartels. Why do they keep turning their backs on all those women and children left behind to be killed and abused by these corrupt governments and cartels? Their priorities seem a bit.....off?
illegals: They'll make great pets
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@Greyparrot
Yah, cause the Native Americans put the pilgrims to work immediately on their corporate agriculture. Stop being a fuckstick apologist for slave wage corporations.
i don't recall ever doing that. Why do you consistently straw man everything?
You claim to like Bernie Sanders but go completely deaf when Bernie says open borders is a corporate Koch Brothers policy, cause crony capitalist establishment Democrats AND crony establishment RINO Republicans have programmed you to ignore that
Yet more straw mans. I have never advocated for "open borders". Although at this point that means literally nothing and is used in any scenario for anyone who doesn't want every single immigrant imprisoned or killed.
I really used to like Bernie almost as much as Trump for fighting the establishment before he clearly sold out to the establishment.
in what way has he sold out to the establishment? The establishment like things the way they are now. You condemn them, demonize them, but profit off them. That is what the republican party does. That is what trump does.
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@HistoryBuff
doesn't want every single immigrant imprisoned
You misspelled illegal immigrant.
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@Greyparrot
You misspelled illegal immigrant.
and in a system that provides no way for most people to do it legally, that distinction becomes rather pointless. If the right actually cared about the problem they would want comprehensive reform to allow alot more immigrants in legally. then the manpower needs could be met and there wouldn't be a need to criminalize people. But that isn't what most people on the right want. Their arguments are just race baiting nonsense.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Most poor Americans are sick of the BS.
They are the ones that suffer, not the elites in fenced-in houses with alarm systems and an active police presence and job security.
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@Greyparrot
the cries for reforms so more can be legal blah blah blah which still does NOTHING for the ones still languishing in their shithole countries, the irony is lost on them. Regardless we are not the world's welfare, merit based immigration, period. That is what's fair to the legal citizens, especially to the poor and homeless citizens. The left likes to forget about them, but I don't.
Fair would be no homeless citizens, veterans etc. Well I could go on and on about what is "fair" which is why I laugh every time someone tries to use it, yup just another four letter f word.
Regardless we are not the world's welfare, merit based immigration, period. That is what's fair to the legal citizens, especially to the poor and homeless citizens. The left likes to forget about them, but I don't.
I don't recall anyone on the left advocating for anything other than merit based immigration. People on the right just like to whine about open borders and then don't listen.
Fair would be no homeless citizens, veterans etc.
you realize that these are policies the left supports right? They want to help every american citizen. Give them schooling, housing, a job etc. It is the right that wants to prevent the government from actually doing anything positive for the working class and the poor.
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@HistoryBuff
you realize that these are policies the left supports right?
Then why are they fucking it up so bad in California, Michigan and New York? Objectively the worst places to be as a homeless person.
None of those states claim ANY responsibility for the shitty policies that have grown the homeless population despite decades of unobstructed absolute rule in those states. If you are homeless in any of those states, you can be assured you won't get a starter job, psychiatric intervention, or a decent place away from drugs, crime and feces to live. Your wealth as a homeless person in a Democratic State is dependant on State welfare which is capped at whatever level the State sees fit. No rung on the ladder for you. No upward mobility. No opportunity. Generational poverty is your future in those states.
Talk is cheap.
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@Greyparrot
Then why are they fucking it up so bad in California, Michigan and New York? Objectively the worst places to be as a homeless person
because these places are primarily run by corporatists. They aren't even on the left. They believe in right wing economic policies that make the rich richer and the poor poorer. They pretend they are on the left by pushing for left wing social policies (gay marriage, etc). But without the left wing economic policy to back it up, it is useless.
Your wealth as a homeless person in a Democratic State is dependant on State welfare which is capped at whatever level the State sees fit. No rung on the ladder for you. No upward mobility. No opportunity. Generational poverty is your future in those states.
i agree. That is why we need actually left wing policy, not just lip service while screwing over the poor. Basically, both republicans and establishment democrats actively screw over the poor because they are bought and paid for corporatists.
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@HistoryBuff
virtually everyone is descended from immigrants means that I support slavery.
Difference here is that we have the means to prevent illegal immigration and restrict it. Native Americans couldn’t because the Europeans had far superior technology and resources. It’s a false equivalency.
Basically, both republicans and establishment democrats actively screw over the poor because they are bought and paid for corporatists.
Then why tf would you want to legalize illegals and accept more immigrants, when our focus should be who the homeless and veterans? Joe Biden is your typical “left” wing politician, yet you’d still vote for him because Trump is bad.
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@ILikePie5
Difference here is that we have the means to prevent illegal immigration and restrict it. Native Americans couldn’t because the Europeans had far superior technology and resources. It’s a false equivalency.
lol so the difference between your ancestors and the current illegal immigrants is your ancestors murdered the people who already lived here and stole the land. The current illegal immigrants just want a chance to live here with the current inhabitants. I guess it is a false equivalency, your ancestors are much worse.
Then why tf would you want to legalize illegals and accept more immigrants, when our focus should be who the homeless and veterans?
those 2 things have nothing to do with each other. Immigrants increase the tax base, increasing tax revenue and making it easier to take care of homeless and the veterans.
I have no idea why people on the right argue we can't spend money doing something good because there is some other good thing we could do. The answer is really simple, put taxes at a reasonable level and then do both.
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@HistoryBuff
lol so the difference between your ancestors and the current illegal immigrants is your ancestors murdered the people who already lived here and stole the land. The current illegal immigrants just want a chance to live here with the current inhabitants.
Who needs to pillage land nowadays? Free food, free housing, free education, free phone, free police services, free emergency healthcare. That's where the real pillaging is at.
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@HistoryBuff
Immigrants increase the tax base,
Lol, tax the poor! Like any party has ever done that. They wouldn't be illegally pillaging our social safety net if it cost them more to do it.
Coyotes take in far more money than the IRS ever will from the wetbacks. Over 10,000 dollars a trip per person. Maybe if the politicians used the IRS to tax the poor as they do in Nordic nations, we wouldn't have an illegal problem.
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@Greyparrot
what? They can't access most of the services that make up the social safety net. They pay taxes into services they can't use.Lol, tax the poor! Like any party has ever done that. They wouldn't be illegally pillaging our social safety net if it cost them more to do it.
Coyotes take in far more money than the IRS ever will from the wetbacks. Over 10,000 dollars a trip per person. Maybe if the politicians used the IRS to tax the poor as they do in Nordic nations, we wouldn't have an illegal problem.
lol, if there was a functioning immigration system then they could simply do it legally without any need for a coyote. Then they would be paying taxes like any other citizen. Everyone wins (except criminals and corporations that feed on illegal immigrants)
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@HistoryBuff
They pay taxes into services they can't use.
Free food, free housing, free education, free phone, free police services, free emergency healthcare.
1)Free Food: DTA in my state(a sanctuary state) does not ask for a social security number for food assistance. You don't even have to prove the kids in your household are yours for extra food. There are also many state-run and state-funded food/boarding programs like Citizens Inn.
So GTFO with this "can't access dat" shit
2) Free housing: See above.
GTFO with this "can't access dat" shit
3) Free education: All illegals get free education.
GTFO with this "can't access dat" shit
4) Free police services: Not only do they protect illegals from crime, but they actively make sure ICE can't get to them either.
GTFO with this "can't access dat" shit
5) Free emergency healthcare: the only way a hospital emergency room can turn away an illegal invader is if they close their doors to everyone, including American taxpayers.
GTFO with this "can't access dat" shit
Who needs to pillage land when you can ignore borders and laws and pillage all that stuff?
¡Que la invasión comience la revolución!
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@Greyparrot
so there are limited services they can access, what is your point? It seems like the logical solution to what you are complaining about is to make them citizens so they can pay the same taxes as everyone else. Problem solved.
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@Greyparrot
so there are limited services they can access, what is your point? It seems like the logical solution to what you are complaining about is to make them citizens so they can pay the same taxes as everyone else. Problem solved.
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@HistoryBuff
The point is that we made many of these safety nets at a time when a tiny percentage of the population much less than 10% needed that safety net, so we can afford it.
That's certainly not the case anymore considering the deficits in EVERY sanctuary city. The country isn't designed to have a "safety net" for over 25% of the population.
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@Greyparrot
The point is that we made many of these safety nets at a time when a tiny percentage of the population much less than 10% needed that safety net, so we can afford it.That's certainly not the case anymore considering the deficits in EVERY sanctuary city. The country isn't designed to have a "safety net" for over 25% of the population.
You are absolutely right. The current economic system in America is unsustainable. Right wing economics have devastated the middle class and forced more and more americans into relying on handouts to be able to stay alive. That is why massive reforms are desperately needed. That is why Sanders is the best candidate to be president.
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@HistoryBuff
and more americans into relying on handouts to be able to stay alive.
You misspelled illegal immigrant yet again.
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@Greyparrot
You misspelled illegal immigrant yet again.
You think that there aren't millions of americans who need government assistance to live in modern america? The problem is current economic system, not immigration.
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