I would like to have a Christian on this website present me proof that Lucifer became Satan...

Author: RationalMadman

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I would like to have a Christian on this website present me proof that Lucifer became Satan rather than Lucifer becoming Jesus.
Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies
A footstool for Your feet”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

That alone makes Jesus different from any other angelic being. Attributed to Him all creating things. Where is that description ever said of Satan, Lucifer, the devil? So you have the Creator and the created distinction too. 

What is more, I believe Isaiah 14:10 contains typology on judgment but the judgment is on the king of Babylon. The metaphoric language is a picture of someone who was considered an exemplar until he tried to place himself above God, as would be the case with Satan too. 

Isaiah 14:4
4 that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,...

8 “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’
9 “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come;
It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth;
It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 “They will all respond and say to you,
‘Even you have been made weak as we,
You have become like us.
11 ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps
Have been brought down to Sheol;
Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you
And worms are your covering.’
12 “How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 “But you said in your heart,
‘I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14 ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world like a wilderness
And overthrew its cities,
Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?’
18 “All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
Each in his own tomb.
19 “But you have been cast out of your tomb
Like a rejected branch,
Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword,
Who go down to the stones of the pit
Like a trampled corpse.
20 “You will not be united with them in burial,
Because you have ruined your country,
You have slain your people.
May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
21 “Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter
Because of the iniquity of their fathers.
They must not arise and take possession of the earth
And fill the face of the world with cities.”
22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and survivors, offspring and posterity,” declares the Lord. 23 “I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog and swamps of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of hosts.

These verses speak of judgment and could very well be likened to how Satan also lost favour in God's eyes with his pride. They also have specific references to Babylon and its judgment. The king of Babylon lost favour with God when he exalted himself above God in his lofty ambition, as could be said of Satan too. Thus, the primary audience is the king of Babylon. The secondary audience could be in reference to Satan.

"How you have fallen from heaven," suggests that the king lost favour with God just as various angelic beings and Satan lost favour with God in their rebellion. 

Jesus also uses this verse of Satan to show he fell too. 

Luke 10:18 (NASB)
18 And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Jesus saw Satans fall from heaven also. 

And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

"Throwing down" speaks of judgment. 

Revelation 20:2 (NASB)
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Revelation 20:10 
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

We are never told Lucifer is the devil or Satan whereas we are told that the dragon is the devil and Satan. The devil and Satan are equated. We are also told a lot about Satan in the NT, how he (as a serpent) deceived Adam and Eve and with that typology, Jesus is presented as being tempted by Satan for forty days and nights yet does not give into Satan as they did. We are told how Satan was a liar from the beginning, how he deceives the nations, etc. None of these derogatory descriptions are ever said about Jesus Christ but the exact opposite. He never fell from God's grace when He became a human being except when He agreed to suffer the judgment of humanity on behalf of those who would believe in what His sacrifice accomplished on the cross. He is described as a Lamb without blemish throughout His earthly ministry. Thus, the contrast between Jesus and Satan is diametrically opposite. And Satan is described as masquerading as an angel of light. Jesus is the light. 

No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

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The King of Tyre is also another example of where an earthly king as the primary address also personifies and references Satan. (Ezekiel 28)

11 Again the word of the Lord came to me saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God,
“You had the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The ruby, the topaz and the diamond;
The beryl, the onyx and the jasper;
The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald;
And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets,
Was in you.
On the day that you were created
They were prepared.
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

Again, the verses speak of judgment for the king of Tyre and allures to Satan. Again, in the King of Tyre we find imagery, typology, and descriptions of Satan just like in Moses we find a description and typology of Jesus Christ (Deuteronomy 18) throughout the OT in perhaps over a thousand different examples. Satan is the personification of evil. Where we find evil and evil people in the OT we find imagery of Satan and what he is like. 

Definition of cherub
1 cherubim plural an order of angels


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@silwow
Whether or not God's corrupt, you couldn't do anything about it. Whether you chose to put your trust in Him or not, you'd still be at His mercy once you died. He could still do to you however He wished. But at the very least you'd have better chances of a good outcome if you stayed on His good side, right?
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@Swagnarok
Whether or not God's corrupt, you couldn't do anything about it. Whether you chose to put your trust in Him or not, you'd still be at His mercy once you died. He could still do to you however He wished. But at the very least you'd have better chances of a good outcome if you stayed on His good side, right?
The biblical God is not corrupt. You have a choice. Either you trust in Him and the means He has given or you will be judged on your own merit. He has given you His word of truth. There is a problem. You are not righteous. You have sinned. A good and just God will not overlook wrong. God has a solution. Jesus (the Son became human and lived as a human being) lived a righteous life before God on behalf of those who would believe. Thus, He became our substitute in that He volunteered to live righteously before God to meet God's perfect standard of righteousness. But that in itself would not solve our problem completely, for those who sin must meet the problem for sin - death (or separation from God's good and beautiful presence and close relationship with Him). Thus, Jesus pays the penalty for those who would believe by dying the death they deserve. Thus not only is God's righteousness met, but so is His justice. For those who believe we are clothed in Jesus righteousness and the penalty for our sin is taken care of by His grace!

John 3:16-21 (NASB)
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.


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I did not say God was corrupt. I was responding to a person who asked me to suppose for a minute that God might be corrupt. In that event, he asserted, would following this God make things worse for you?
My answer was no because this God would still hold all the power anyway and could torment anybody He wanted, whether they were His followers or not. Since people generally like being flattered and worshiped, it seems most evident that a corrupt God would be less likely to torment those who did so and more likely to punish stubborn holdouts who refused.
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@Swagnarok
I did not say God was corrupt. I was responding to a person who asked me to suppose for a minute that God might be corrupt. In that event, he asserted, would following this God make things worse for you?
My answer was no because this God would still hold all the power anyway and could torment anybody He wanted, whether they were His followers or not. Since people generally like being flattered and worshiped, it seems most evident that a corrupt God would be less likely to torment those who did so and more likely to punish stubborn holdouts who refused.
And I was responding specifically about the biblical God in answering the corruption issue. 
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I would like a Christian on this website to prove that their particular god actually exists.

Prove the basis of the hypothesis, and then start quibbling over the ludicrous mythological embellishments.

17 days later

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@RationalMadman
I would like to have a Christian on this website present me proof that Lucifer became Satan rather than Lucifer becoming Jesus.

Thanks in advance.
Not sure how many Christians would suggest that Lucifer became Jesus. In fact that would make the person a non-Christian. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. He is the eternal Son of God. He was never anything but the eternal Son of God. 

Satan or the devil or the serpent or the beast or whatever he is called - adversary, etc is a fallen Angel. Created by God and who chose to reject God. He was never an arch angel. He tempted humanity - he tried to belittle Job - He tried to outsmart God - He tried to tempt Jesus. Jesus talks of seeing him and his demons - fall from heaven. 

He filled the heart of Judas with greed.  He has a placed reserved for him in Hell along with his demons.  

I know there are passages in Ezekiel which talk about Cyrus as the morning star - and proud - but I think this is talking about the nation not the devil. 

Lucifer means light. Yet I am not sure whether this refers to Satan. I suppose it could.  

Hence - Jesus is God and divine. Satan or the devil is only a created being. One is the creator - and one is not. 
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@Tradesecret
I would like to have a Christian on this website present me proof that Lucifer became Satan rather than Lucifer becoming Jesus.

Thanks in advance.
Not sure how many Christians would suggest that Lucifer became Jesus. In fact that would make the person a non-Christian. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. He is the eternal Son of God. He was never anything but the eternal Son of God. 
The idea of associating the two is absurd and hundreds of passages tell otherwise. 

Satan or the devil or the serpent or the beast or whatever he is called - adversary, etc is a fallen Angel. Created by God and who chose to reject God. He was never an arch angel. He tempted humanity - he tried to belittle Job - He tried to outsmart God - He tried to tempt Jesus. Jesus talks of seeing him and his demons - fall from heaven.
Yes, Hebrews, as one of many references, makes it clear that Jesus is not an angel, although the title of "The Angel of the Lord" is used of Him in the OT. The attributes of the two are opposite also. 

Hebrews 1:6-14 (NASB)
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says,
“Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
But of the Son He says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
10 And,
You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the works of Your hands;
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they all will become old like a garment,
12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;
Like a garment they will also be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies
A footstool for Your feet”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

The righteous angels never sought worship. They understood that only God deserves that. God requires worship of Himself only and we see Jesus getting the same worship given of the Father in the gospels. 

He filled the heart of Judas with greed.  He has a placed reserved for him in Hell along with his demons.  

I know there are passages in Ezekiel which talk about Cyrus as the morning star - and proud - but I think this is talking about the nation not the devil. 
Outright it is. You can argue that the typology is used of the devil also. There are parallels. 

Lucifer means light. Yet I am not sure whether this refers to Satan. I suppose it could. 
And yet there is not light in Satan, he just masquerades as light. Satan fell from the light of God. Again, the parallels are there.

Hence - Jesus is God and divine. Satan or the devil is only a created being. One is the creator - and one is not. 
Too true!
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@Tradesecret
These people who offer the suggestion of Jesus being Satan show their lack of biblical understanding, IMO. They refuse to argue their case effectively.