The problem with the "risen" Jesus.

Author: Stephen

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Goldtop
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@Mopac
My beliefs are wrong and so are yours. To admit this is to admit sin. 

I have no beliefs in fairies and pixies, nor do I sin. You're very confused.

The Ultimate Reality is what is true, and that is what God is. That is something that goes beyond anyone's belief on the matter.
That is your personal, irrational, illogical and completely childish belief. Please grow up and be an adult.
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@Goldtop
There is nothing confused about admitting you are wrong. There is nothing irrational or illogical about admitting that The Truth is more correct than what you think about The Truth. It is childish to deny reality.
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@Mopac
It is childish to deny reality.

Exactly, and yet here you are doing just that. Why not take your own advice?
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@Goldtop
That's what you say, but you don't really know that.

If a truth dies, does The Truth die? Of course not. That is the real mystery of the risen Jesus.

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@Mopac
That's what you say, but you don't really know that.

We may have something in common then, everything you say are things you don't really know.


If a truth dies, does The Truth die? Of course not.

Talking in silly riddles, like a small child?

That is the real mystery of the risen Jesus.
You're just all over the map, no jib.
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@Goldtop
I don't think it is so hard to admit that The Truth exists.
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@Mopac
I don't think it is so hard to admit that The Truth exists.
So, I should just lie to myself about your so-called Truth?

I'm not like you. I don't like lying to myself.
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@Goldtop
Not my truth. The Truth. No lying to yourself necessary.


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@Mopac
The Truth

Empty words.
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@Goldtop
Because you don't believe in truth?
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@Mopac
I don't see any truth, I see reality, join it sometime.
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@Goldtop
How do I join reality?
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@Mopac
How do I join reality?

By dumping your delusions.
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@Goldtop
And if I'm delusional, how do I know what my delusions are?
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@Mopac
Do you see God standing in front of you?
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@Goldtop
Do you see reality standing in front of you?
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@Mopac
Do you see reality standing in front of you?

Of course. And, there is no God standing in front of me.
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@Goldtop
Yet, reality as it truly is happens to be what I call God.

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@Mopac
Yet, reality as it truly is happens to be what I call God.
That makes absolutely no sense at all.

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@Goldtop
It doesn't make sense to you.
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@Mopac
It doesn't make sense to you.

Or, anyone else. Didn't you notice?
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@Goldtop
So now you are speaking for everyone else? Actually, I've met plenty of people who have no problem making sense of it.

So no, it doesn't make sense to you. Maybe you don't want it to make sense.

ethang5
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@Mopac
It makes sense to me.
Stephen
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@ethang5
No we don't. Mopac isright. Jesus was saying, "do not detain me". 
                                                                     
No. at post 7 what Mopac saidwas >>
 
> @Mopac
Theword that gets translated in John 20:17 to "touch" is in the originalgreek "ἅπτομαι" which is closer to a clinging to rather than a simplepoking.......
So in other words, it is a problemthat arises because of translation
Nope there is no mention of “detaining” stop falsifyingthese facts.
 So touch is to lay hands or at least fingers on someone.  To cling to someone is also to touch someone. 

And to "detain" someone, one has to touch them.

The point of BIBLICAL fact here is, that one persons gets favour over another. One person is ALLOWED to "touch" "cling" or even to "detain"  but another person is refused.  

AND YOU OR Mopac cannot explain this biblical biasness  away .
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@Mopac

It is definitely a translation issue. First point.
May well be, but you  translating the word -  touch - as "to cling" makes no difference, does it. To cling to someone is still to touch them. Do you not realise how hopelessly pathetic your responses have been?

I will say one single thing in your favour Mopec. You have at least admitted that there is a problem with these scriptures by introducing the fact that there big awkward problem of translation and or  mistranslation. It allows people like you to make words fit where they do not even belong.  It  has encouraged me to start another thread on how unreliable these gospels really are. Something I have suggested all along.
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@Stephen
I found this interesting, if only because it's an interpretation I'd never heard before: https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter20/17

You should really read the whole thing because I can't do all the details justice, but here is a sample:

Almost every commentator seriously misunderstands this verse because they assume that “going up to the Father” refers to Jesus’ ascension into heaven. This problem is made worse by the fact that most English versions of the Bible translate the common Greek word anabainō, which means “to go up” or “to come up,” as “ascended.” This makes it seem like the verse is referring to Jesus’ ascension into heaven, which it does not.

If Jesus told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended into heaven, then why did he allow or invite others to touch him before he ascended? The same morning he told Mary not to touch him, he allowed the other women to touch him and hold on to his feet (Matt. 28:9). Then later that same day Jesus appeared to his disciples when they were behind locked doors and told them, “Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me, and see” (Luke 24:39). ... Then, eight days later, he told Thomas to touch him (John 20:26, 27).

... If Jesus says the reason not to touch him is that he had not gone to the Father, then once he had “gone up” to the Father, people could touch him. Of course that is exactly what happened. Once Jesus had “gone up” to his Father, which, as we will see, he did when he went “up” to the Temple and then presented himself to the Father there, he allowed people to touch him.
The assertion here is that Jesus meant he was going up to the temple to take care of some Old Testament fulfillment stuff:

The Messiah was the fulfillment of the types and symbols in the Old Testament. For example, he was the true Passover Lamb; the true acceptable sacrifice; the true Sabbath rest for God’s people; and the true High Priest. He was also the true “firstfruits” to God, that is, the first of God’s true harvest (God’s true harvest is the harvest of people who get up from the dead to everlasting life, and Jesus was the first one to be raised from the dead to everlasting life). After his resurrection, Jesus was both the High Priest (Ps. 110:4; Zech. 6:13; Heb. 5:5; 8:1) and the firstfruits (1 Cor. 15:20, 23), and he had to go to the Temple and show himself in both those roles.

... After the sun came up, Jesus Christ, as the acceptable firstfruits, went up from the tomb area to the Temple on Mt. Moriah and showed himself publicly to God and was acceptable in God’s sight to represent the rest of the harvest—all the believers who will be raised from the dead. The High Priest showing the firstfruits in the Temple was something all the Apostles and disciples understood from their Jewish upbringing, and knew was supposed to happen that very day. So if they believed Mary’s testimony that Jesus had been raised from the dead, they would also understand he had to go up to the Temple and show himself to God there. Therefore, when Mary appeared to them and told them Jesus was alive, she bolstered her statement by telling them that he had to “go up to the Father,” that is, appear in the Temple...

As both the High Priest and the Offering, Jesus had to remain Leviticaly clean until after he offered himself, and he would not be Leviticaly clean if Mary touched him (Lev. 22:1-8). Mary was unclean by virtue of the fact that she had been in the tomb that morning and seen that the body of Jesus was gone. However, after Jesus had fulfilled his role as High Priest and firstfruits offering by showing himself in the Temple, he could let people touch him—and he did.
It further suggests that if Jesus had really been referring to his ascension to heaven, Mary would have expressed confusion because none of Christ's followers ever understood the ascension. The commentator argues that they all believed the kingdom of God would be on Earth and never really got that Jesus would be leaving Earth, which is why they were so crushed and hopeless.

I didn't follow all the details, but I can't help finding the whole thing rather dubious, interesting or not. Even if I'd read "go up to my Father" instead of "ascend", I still wouldn't have gotten "go up to the temple" out of that. Not that I'm any scholar on the subject. It's just you'd think it would've been spelled out more clearly if Jesus was doing such an important ritual at the temple.
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@Castin
Interesting piece Castin. 


I can't help finding the whole thing rather dubious, interesting or not. Even if I'd read "go up to my Father" instead of "ascend", I still wouldn't have gotten "go up to the temple" out of that. Not that I'm any scholar on the subject. It's just you'd think it would've been spelled out more clearly if Jesus was doing such an important ritual at the temple. 

I agree.     Of course it is at least dubious and very questionable. I also find it  strange and puzzling that this interpretation of the matter of "ascended"  hasn't been pointed out by the faithful hear at all, has it?

I believe mopacs interpretation of  "to cling" which he may well have desperately scrambled here to find 
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/20-17.htm doesn't answer the question at all does it. But what he seems to have left out was the part where it continues in Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers>>

Her [Mary's] act supposed a condition which had not yet been accomplished. He had not returned to earth to abide permanently with His disciples in the presence of the Paraclete (comp. John 14:18), for He had not yet ascended to the Father. 
So. It seems that the phrase "go up to my father" does, depending on the writer, mean leaving the earth, because, as can be read from Ellicott's biblical christian interpretation above, to return somewhere, one has to have left it in the first place.

Now I don't doubt that we will have different interpretations from the devout here  of what the 'biblical' interpretations are for "earth" returned" " not" and perhaps even the word "had" and what they may all actually mean ' biblically'. 
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@Stephen
I assume you realise that Luke and John were written by different people. And to different audiences. 

Hence they had different purposes. Yet they are in agreement. 


you seem to have difficulty with John's rendition of the events surrounding Mary and then Thomas. Firstly Jesus says don't touch - actually he says "don't hold onto me" for "I have not returned to my father" . and then in v 27 he says to Thomas "put your finger here". I think you are suggesting that Jesus is inconsistent about whether he can be touched or not and that he is being inconsistent and John in fact is contradicting himself. 

note however, Jesus never said to Mary don't touch - he says don't hold onto me. This was not a simple touching - it was a full on significant hug of some description. In the second place - despite Jesus' suggestion to Thomas, there is no evidence that Thomas ever actually touched Jesus. Jesus' words were more of a rhetorical sense once Thomas had actually seen him in the flesh. Remember that Jews did not have the same idea about ghosts that we do today. 

Hence, the bible only says that Mary was told not to hold onto him and that Jesus suggested to Thomas that he touch him. So there is no data that goes the extra step and says that Jesus did not let Mary touch him but did let Thomas touch him. I am not even sure that the essence of the story goes that far. In fact Mary did touch him. But we don't know about Thomas. 

But why did Jesus say what he did to Mary? What was that about? I think it is fairly easy to explain. She was clinging to him in the hope that he would not simply disappear before his eyes.  the words do not describe a simple touch but a clinging a holding a not wanting to let him go sense. He tells her to stop- in other words there will be other opportunities for her to see him before he goes to his father. perhaps she was clinging to him in a sense that her clinging might prevent him from going. she was being obstinate in her grief. she had lost him once - it was not going to happen again if she could help it. Jesus simply tells her to get serious. she cannot stop what is happening. 

so when Jesus sees Thomas later it does not contradict his words at all to Mary, but makes perfect sense. no issues with the resurrection - simply revealing normal human flaws for all to see. 


ethang5
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@Stephen
Nope there is no mention of “detaining” stop falsifyingthese facts.
There is. Jesus says, "do not cling to me, I have something to do." You stupidly demand that the bible be literal in everything. Why else would Jesus mention what He has yet to do, and connect it with her clinging to Him?

I am still finding it difficult to believe you are really this stupid.

So touch is to lay hands or at least fingers on someone.  To cling to someone is also to touch someone. 

And to "detain" someone, one has to touch them.
Yes captain obvious. She was touching Him.

The point of BIBLICAL fact here is, that one persons gets favour over another.
Please stop being stupid. Jesus was under no obligation to treat everyone the same. He resurrected some, not all. He dined at the home of some, not all. He saved some, not all. How is this favor? Both Mary and the disciples touch Him. Where is the favor?

One person is ALLOWED to "touch" "cling" or even to "detain"  but another person is refused.  
Because genius, Jesus said He had something to do. Could you really be so stupid as to demand that circumstances at different times in Jesus' life should have no effect on what He allowed? Could you really be that dense?

AND YOU OR Mopac cannot explain this biblical biasness  away .
We can't "explain" stupidity away it's true. But fortunately for us, your stupidity needs no explanation. Even Steven Wonder would see it.
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@Tradesecret
Yours was one of the best posts I've ever seen. Had I seen yours first, I would not have posted mine. Kudos.