Why was the NT Zacharias "struck dumb"?

Author: Stephen

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@Stephen
Rightly understanding the author's meaning is called exegesis. 
 
YOU: "Really, and who are you and what authority do you have to claim that you perfectly understand the “authors meaning”. You appear to simply going on faith and taking these gospels as written and on face value. I don’t. And I have every right to question them."

I am no one important. The authority I have rests on the biblical God and His existence. I have an authority that claims to be the ultimate authority. Why is your authority ultimate? Which relative, subjective, limited authority would you posit as ultimate? Do you have what is necessary for such an ultimate authority, given your worldview? If not, then what makes your word, your authority, any BETTER than any other? Because you say so? In the big picture why does what you say matter? It only matters if it is true. So, prove that what you say is true.  

You miss the point. If you are not getting the authors INTENDED meaning, then have you understood what the Author has said?

What I am saying is that the interpretation I give is reasonable and logical to the text I am interpreting. I can show that. Can you? 
 


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@Stephen
what you consider anomalies and enigmatic verses have REASONABLE explanations.
 
YOU: "Not to me and you have provided none either. To claim a supernatural omnipotent being is not “reasonable”it is at least silly and worst outrageous."

Do you see what you did with that statement? You made truth dependent on what you believe. Why does what you believe determine truth?
Then, on top of that, you claim a supernatural being is unreasonable. Is blind, indifferent, impersonal, illogical, amoral, chance happenstance more reasonable? When you strip away everything to core presuppositions/foundational beliefs, what you are left with is everything originating from one of two ultimate origins - creation or chance.

Reason comes from reasoning being, not unthinking matter, yet a worldview devoid of a Creator would have to believe that chance happenstance is responsible for all that exists. It does not make sense, nor is it capable of making sense.  

 
I address yourquestions and your thread because I care about truth,
 
It is a crying shame these gospel writers didn’t care as much as you do.

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@Stephen
 
I address your questions and your thread because I care about truth,
 
YOU: "It is a crying shame these gospel writers didn’t care as much as you do."

Let's examine that statement. Are you game?

What they say is often TESTABLE, since it concerns history. Jesus' words, as they record them, focuses on many prophetic utterances, such as in the Olivet Discourse. The discourse centers around the destruction of the city and temple. That happened historically. It is reasonable to believe. Show me otherwise or show me the evidence that these gospels were written AFTER the fact.

Was Jerusalem destroyed in AD 70? 

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@Stephen

 
Still waiting for an answer to post #13.
YOU: "There isn’t a question at thirteen. That is why there is no answer!"

You made a claim and I challenged it. Thus, you need to respond instead of putting up many other smokescreens to deflect from that argument.  
You do what JW's do. You change the subject by issuing forth other Scripture that has nothing to do with the original subject matter. That diverges from the topic.
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@PGA2.0
Told to you by a shaman Good luck with that..
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@PGA2.0
You are taking this all far too personal.

You can't ultimately make senseof anything unless you first presuppose such a Being. 
And youwill never explain away these enigmatic, confusing, vague and anomalous verseswithout bringing such a being into play. This being is your answer toeverything. It is not mine.
 
 
Your beliefs are your own privatebusiness. I CAN'T change those beliefs. They are ingrained in your nature.
They are.I have said I believe many, if not all the characters in the NT existed. I havesaid I believe Jesus was or at least thought himself to be, rightful king ofthe Jews. 
 
 
It is when you state things that areuntrue on a public forum that I object.
That youbelieve are untrue, is what you mean.  This is simply your opinion. 
 
I do not care that you hold thosebeliefs/claims.
I thinkyou do, you just don't want me to give my opinion on the New Testament. Youtoo, like those gospellers seem to want to hush up and hide the fact that thereis something else clearly going on under the surface of the scriptures.Something I believe is more sinister. I also believe if it was up to you Iwouldn't be posting here. Yet I have abused no one or broken any rules. This isthe problem with religious fanatics; they don't like anyone having a differentpoint of view to themselves. 
 
 
You are free to believe/claimwhatever you like.
Yes Iknow I am, and as much as you object, you are entitled to those objections.. Ihaven't ridiculed or mocked your religion and I haven't abused or mockedanyone. It is simply the case that I read these scriptures with an open mindand from a somewhat historical angle. You just take them as "gospeltruth" truth via faith,   I do not.
 
It is your loss if you haven'tinvestigated your worldview enough to know what holds it together and howrational and logical it is or is not.
I don'tbelieve I have "lost" anything. 
 
I care about truth and I see youmisrepresenting it.
No, youonly believe I am misrepresenting these scriptures.  You see me asupsetting standard beliefs, just for questioning the scriptures. You areobviously upset about my questioning simply because you know they are difficultto explain away and controversial without a supernatural being to relyon.  They shouldn't be to you. Try simply answering my questions withoutrelying on a supernatural omnipotent being.
 
You are free to claim whateveryou want. When you have nothing but assertions and private belief to back upyour claims I choose to expose those beliefs on the grounds of lack ofreasonable evidence.
 
I haven’t even started to give myevidence. I have been far too busy debunking your responses and explanations forwhich you have no comeback. That alone speaks volumes to me or anyone readinghere.
 
Your beliefs do not affect me inwhat I believe.
I didn’t expect them to affect you or anyone else.  And ithas never been my aim to convince anyone of anything. I have made that veryclear and plain on more than one occasion now. What I have wrote are MY questionsand my theories and my opinions. How many times do I have to make that clear toyou?
 
What matters is not your claimbut whether it is true or not. Anyone can claim anything. 
 
 They can, and I stick to my claim: One only has to scratch the surface of these vague andanomalous, sometimes enigmatic half told stories and one finds a much fullerand sometimes intriguing story altogether that leaves myself and many others  questioningthe validity of the "god " inspired gospels.
 
 
 
I don't care that you can claimsomething. I care when your ideas bring others into a false view of reality.
 
Well this is clearly you, acting as father or mother wanting to nanny everyone in the world who thinks different. Do you believe that those who post here are children without a mind of their own, their own opinions and views or ideas? Again you’re speaking of yourpersonal opinion and belief. You are entitled to YOUR VERSION of the truth. Ijust happen to believe that there is a much bigger story under the surface ofthe scriptures.

You are taking this far too personal. Try approaching my questions with your own mind. Just for once.
 

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@Stephen
PGA2.0: “Because they trusted Him to death and many had wanted Jesus dead. They risked their lives as His followers. Here,in these passages, He conveys an important message to them about resurrection and trusting in Him”.

 
YOU: "Apart from the well-known fact that many wanting Jesus dead, the rest of you[r]
laboured
response
is something you have simply invented."


I did not invent it. I took other accounts of NT Scripture that state as much, such as:


Matthew 24:9
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
 
Matthew 26:35
But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same.

See Mark 8:35; Mark 14:31; Matthew 16:25; Luke 9:14; Luke 17:33; John 6:35; John 6:68; JOHN11:25 (same passage); John 13:37; John 15:13; John 15:20, as other instances that reaffirm my viewpoint.

YOU: (1)  The gospel writer here goes nowhere near to explaining this enigmatic statement. What you have
wrote
to explain away this ENIGMATIC and puzzling verse is your OWN OPINION and nothing more.

Scripture is its own interpreter. God answers the questions of Scripture with other Scripture. His word bears witness to itself.  



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@PGA2.0
You made a claim and I challenged it. Thus, you need to respond instead of putting up many other smokescreens to deflect from that argument.  
You do what JW's do. You change the subject by issuing forth other Scripture that has nothing to do with the original subject matter. That diverges from the topic
 concerning post 13. I have nothing to respond to. You gave an explanation, which I do not agree with. I have said I don't agree. I believe your answer to why Zacharias  is nonsense. 

I am not avoiding or evading a single thing. I simply do not believe OR accept your answer. Zacharias wasn't warned about doubting in that verse as you claim. that is simply a lie, isn't it.  He was just issued a punishment for asking a simple question that any mortal being would have asked.

 Sarah and Abraham were not punished for "doubting" were they?  "Doubting Thomas" wasn't punished for doubting  the lord had risen, either was he?
And John the Baptist wasn't punished for doubting that Jesus was "the one to come". And after all his crying and wailing in the wilderness and identifying this "lamb of god" and the descending dove confirming Jesus as the  saviour of mankind, either was he. Do you not see how silly your claim looks in the light of these other scripture observation? 
 Tell me this. Why would a god fritter away a "miracle" on "turning water into wine", when he could have cured all leprosy instead of just a few lepers? 
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@PGA2.0
PGA2.0. Please use the quoting icon. your posts are getting more confusing and take far too much time to reply. 
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@PGA2.0
I am pointing out the INCONSISTENCY of your worldview. If God did not exist you would be a by-product of blind, indifferent, impersonal chance happenstance where ultimately nothing really matters, yet you treat existence as if it does.

God doesn't exist and yet I still do, I am still me and you are still desperately hoping that you won't die as the shaman told you.

You LOOK for MEANING (and find it).

Meaning is what I make of it, anyone who bases their meaning in an invisible friend created for them by a primitive shaman is seriously deluded.

Why is that? Why do you borrow from my Christian worldview that says things do ultimately matter?

Your worldview is predicated on the fear of death that your shaman has almost convinced you doesn't exist. I borrow nothing from that nonsense.

If this life is all there is and you are a biological bag of atoms that react to your environment one way, and me another, why SHOULD you care, why should anyone?

Life exists and death, the cessation of life, also exists. You are too afraid to confront that reality and your shaman's fantasies allow you to avoid that reality.

THERE IS NO REASON. REASON comes from mindful personal being. How can that happen in a mindless, indifferent universe? How do you get to "you" in such a mindless universe? You just presuppose it can and it makes no sense. 

Pretending that you don't die is an idea dreampt up by ignorant primitive shaman's who wanted to control the absurdly gullible tribe members like you.

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@Stephen
YOU: (2) What you state concerning the amount of "trust" Thomas had is ridiculous considering Thomas Didymus was later to “doubt” Jesus had “risen.”

[John 21:24-28 was quoted by Stephen]

***
Not following your points. They are a little disjointed.

John 21:24-28 is a different situation, different circumstances, yet Thomas believed once He saw Jesus alive again after death. His doubt was returned to trust by Jesus.

Anyone can take a separate verse and isolate it to make a point that has nothing to do with the first point they were making or the greater scope of the original context.

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@PGA2.0
Scripture is its own interpreter. God answers the questions of Scripture with other Scripture. His word bears witness to itself. 
Yes, so you keep saying and those verses do not explain at all why these "trusting" disciples wanted to "DIE".

And you forgot that one of the "trusting" disciples who YOU say "trusted Jesus with their lives" was none other that the not so trusting "doubting Thomas".   he wasn't punished for "doubting" was he?  I notice you glided over that little problem. 

 Please learn to use the quoting icon. it is getting rather tedious and time consuming having to separate what you are saying from other text. 
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@Stephen
It doesn't always work? I'm not sure why Any help?
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@Stephen
I've tried using the quote function before. It does not seem to work all the time, plus I can't bring in the rest of the context. Maybe you have some suggestions on how to make it work?

I can only post small segments at a time, thus the numerous posts. I'm not sure if it is a flaw of the system or if there is something I'm not understanding. Straighten me out if you found something that works. I find that sometimes words are all scrunched together when quoting, too. 
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@PGA2.0
John 21:24-28 is a different situation, different circumstances, yet Thomas believed once He saw Jesus alive again after death. His doubt was returned to trust by Jesus. 
So at least here you are not disputing that they both doubted without punishment yet Zacharias was punished for what the "angel" said was "doubting".

And it doesn't matter if Thomas decided to believe AFTER the fact, the point I am making and as you well know is that Thomas wasn't punished either. this is a somewhat lopsided view for anyone scrutinising the scriptures.

Why had the doubting of these two -  John the Baptist - who was filled with the holy spirit"  no less and "great in the eyes of "god " no less and the suicidal  "doubting Thomas" received any kind of warning and or punishment for doubting and neither had Abraham & sarah. Your excuses/reasons are absolutely nonsense.

There was simply no need to punish Zacharias in the light of these other biblical revelations of people "doubting". The whole story concerning the Baptist  is false. IN MY OPINION
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@disgusted
ME: "I am pointing out the INCONSISTENCY of your worldview. If God did not exist you would be a by-product of blind, indifferent, impersonal chance happenstance where ultimately nothing really matters, yet you treat existence as if it does."

YOU: "God doesn't exist and yet I still do, I am still me and you are still desperately hoping that you won't die as the shaman told you."

Is that an absolute statement, because you stated it in an indicative mood? You are declaring what is factual. Prove God does not exist instead of just stating it.
Again, make SENSE of why a blind, indifferent, unintentional, impersonal, chance universe would produce sentient, logical, intentional. purposeful, mindful, personal beings. You can't make sense of why it would because THERE IS NO SENSE BEHIND IT.

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@disgusted
ME: "You LOOK for MEANING (and find it)."

YOU: "Meaning is what I make of it, anyone who bases their meaning in an invisible friend created for them by a primitive shaman is seriously deluded."

You are manufacturing your own truth/meaning (postmodernism). If you believe it then it becomes true to you. Why is that? If you believe you can fly and jump off the Empire State building does that make your belief/CLAIM true? You are not flying, you are dropping like a lead balloon. If you come to a red light and believe that "red" means go, does that make your belief true? Do you have the correct meaning? Such beliefs result in a quick death. They are contrary to what is real.

Why would you continually find meaning in a meaningless universe? Why is there meaning in an ultimately meaningless universe? THERE IS NO REASON FOR IT from such a universe, yet you continue to find it. What does that tell you? It tells me you starting from the wrong foundational presupposition that can't make sense of anything.

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@disgusted
ME: "Why is that? Why do you borrow from my Christian worldview that says things do ultimately matter?"

YOU: "Your worldview is predicated on the fear of death that your shaman has almost convinced you doesn't exist. I borrow nothing from that nonsense."

When you strip your worldview down to its basic foundation (its starting point), you can't but borrow from my worldview to make sense of anything.

The origin of your worldview is mindless, impersonal, irrational matter, yet here you are. The core/foundation that your whole house of cards rests upon is blind, indifferent purposeless chance happenstance, because without a mind as the origin of everything there is no INTENTION, nothing to hold anything together or sustain the uniformity of nature (natural laws) because everything is a by-product of chance. Why would CHANCE keep things uniform? What ABILITY does CHANCE have? When you roll the dice and six repeatedly is thrown then you know the dice are fixed, there is intention/purpose behind the role. 

Your core/foundation has no meaning behind it, it is just invented by you, which means why is what you believe any BETTER than what I believe? There is no reason other than you forcing your ideas on those weaker than you because you have no ultimate best. BEST is a QUALITATIVE value that goodness and evil are compared to. Without a BEST what makes your views any BETTER than mine? NOTHING. It just makes what you believe preferable by you if you can enforce your preference.

What does the fear of death have to do with you making meaning true?
I asked you specific questions, and you eluded them because your worldview can't make sense of itself. It does not have what is necessary.

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@disgusted
ME: "If this life is all there is and you are a biological bag of atoms that react to your environment one way, and me another, why SHOULD you care, why should anyone?"

YOU: "Life exists and death, the cessation of life, also exists. You are too afraid to confront that reality and your shaman's fantasies allow you to avoid that reality."

My belief gives hope for a future. It is based on a necessary authority. You are not that authority. Yours does not. It is not based on an ultimate authority. My belief is REASONABLE AND LOGICAL. Yours is not. You and your beliefs originate from what? From biological matter without reason or mind. You have no reasonable answer UNLESS you borrow from my Christian worldview.
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@disgusted
ME: "THERE IS NO REASON. REASON comes from mindful personal being. How can that happen in a mindless, indifferent universe? How do you get to "you" in such a mindless universe? You just presuppose it can and it makes no sense."

YOU: "Pretending that you don't die is an idea dreamt up by ignorant primitive shaman's who wanted to control the absurdly gullible tribe members like you."

You continually fail to answer my questions.

Your last statement is your ASSERTION. Now prove it. Prove that God does not exist. Prove that what I believe is untrue. Show that what your worldview is based on is more reasonable. You can't. It makes no sense (nonsense).

Peter

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@Stephen
John 21:24-28 is a different situation, different circumstances, yet Thomas believed once He saw Jesus alive again after death. His doubt was returned to trust by Jesus. 
 YOU: So at least here you are not disputing that they both doubted without punishment yet Zacharias was punished for what the "angel" said was "doubting"."

Jesus was gracious to Thomas like He is graceful  to all those who come to faith in Him. The punishment Zacharias received was a CONFIRMATION that what the angel told him was true. He doubted the words given the angel were from God thus calling into question that God is true to what He says. 
 
YOU: And it doesn't matter if Thomas decided to believe AFTER the fact, the point I am making and as you well know is that Thomas wasn't punished either. this is a somewhat lopsided view for anyone scrutinising the scriptures.

Then you don't understand grace - God's UNMERITED favor, and you don't understand God's sovereignty. God permits situations that greater good will arise from them. 

YOU: Why had the doubting of these two -  John the Baptist - who was filled with the holy spirit"  no less and "great in the eyes of "god " no less and the suicidal  "doubting Thomas" received any kind of warning and or punishment for doubting and neither had Abraham &
sarah. Your excuses/reasons are absolutely nonsense.

He was filled with the Spirit for a purpose, to announce the coming of the Lord. Later he doubted and Jesus said that John was the least in the kingdom because of that doubt, yet by God's grace John was still saved.

YOU: "There was simply no need to punish Zacharias in the light of these other biblical revelations of people "doubting". The whole story concerning the Baptist is false. IN MY OPINION

His not being able to speak was a sign that God had spoken to him. It confirmed the truth of what was spoken by the angel.

What makes the story of John the Baptist false?


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@PGA2.0
Your gods are the creation of shaman, you refuse to prove that your gods exist why should I bother to prove something that doesn't exist doesn't exist.
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@PGA2.0
Your christian worldview was created for you by shamen thousands of years ago. My worldview is created by me, I have greater authority and knowledge than your primitive shamen.
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@PGA2.0
Jesus was gracious toThomas like He is graceful  to all those who come to faith in Him.
But Thomas didn’t have faith until Thomas laid down his challenge for the risen Christ, did he. He More or less said ‘ I will believe ONLY when I see it’. Stop trying to weasel your way around this fact!
 
The punishment Zacharias received was a CONFIRMATION that what the angel told him was true.
This is quite silly,tell me, wouldn’t just the appearance of an “angel” be enough to have convinced Zacharias that everything he said was true. You are also ignoring that both this old barren couple had served god faithfully all their lives and were sinless.
 
 
 He doubted the words given the angel were from God thus calling into question that God is true to what He says
 
 
So why would the priest who had served god faithfully all his days doubt an “angel” of god? You Know this simply doesn’t make any sense are are scraping the barrel my friend.
 
He was filled with theSpirit for a purpose, to announce the coming of the Lord. Later he doubted and Jesus said that John was the least in the kingdom because of that doubt, yet by God's grace John was still saved.
 
 More nonsense.
Jesus calling someone names isn’t really a punishment on the lines of being struck dumb, now is it?In fact there is nowhere in the scripture that says Jesus called John “the least in the kingdom” because of his doubt. And you know there isn’t.
 
John the Baptist IDENTIFIED this man Jesus. AND John states that all his understanding and beliefs of this were confirmed by a descending dove from heaven. How could this man, filled with the Holy Spirit and who was “great in the eyes of god” even believe he could have made a mistake? Identifying and baptising this man Jesus  was Johns sole purpose for existing!

  PLEASE LEARN TO USE YOUR QUOTING ICON. IT IS VERY IRRITATING AND MAKES IT MUCH HARDER TO RESPOND
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@disgusted
DISGUSTED: "Your gods are the creation of shaman, you refuse to prove that your gods exist why should I bother to prove something that doesn't exist doesn't exist."

Please do not state things you have little support for. If you want to assert such tripe, please back up your assertions with credible information.

Disgusted: "Your Christian worldview was created for you by shamen thousands of years ago. My worldview is created by me, I have greater authority and knowledge than your primitive shamen."
Again, unsupported tripe. Anyone can make a claim but the proof is a different matter. Your worldview sounds very flimsy, especially with your relative, subjective, limited authority.

Peter
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@Stephen
STEPHEN:   PLEASE LEARN TO USE YOUR QUOTING ICON. IT IS VERY IRRITATING AND MAKES IT MUCH HARDER TO RESPOND


I have already asked you to explain to me how this works. I have tried using " and wrapping it around a text. It does not work. I can't use Bold, Italic, or Underline, nor any of the other functions on the toolbar. 

Suggestions, please!


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@Stephen
But Thomas didn’t have faith until Thomas laid down his challenge for the risen Christ, did he. He More or less said ‘ I will believe ONLY when I see it’. Stop trying to weasel your way around this fact!

He didn't deny Him, he just questioned his peers as to Jesus' rising from the dead. He wanted to see the evidence himself to believe it. Show me somewhere where he denies having faith in Jesus. He did not have faith that Jesus rose from the dead. There is a difference/distinction.

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I tried to wrap quotes around that statement of yours. See, nothing happened. Explain to me what you do, Stephen.
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  PLEASE LEARN TO USE YOUR QUOTING ICON.
Test
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@PGA2.0
How do you allegedly know of the existence of your gods. Did your gods tell you or did a human tell you?