Captain America: Civil War Mafia - DP1

Author: Speedrace

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ILikePie5
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@oromagi
Didn't you just argue that no worthwhile COP would CC in DP1? 

That was Supa. I argued that a 1 for 1 would be in towns favor, especially considering there could be other power roles out there 

But you are also using the lack of CC as town cred?   What if the real Role Cop is worthwhile?
<br>
Well they should come out and CC me immediately. I’m assuming town has more power roles considering everyone has a role. Watcher or tracker are just as likely.
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@oromagi
3/11 that showed up we’re voting me. 2 were probably going join my wagon bringing it up to 5/11 people there. Two shy of lynch votes. And Speed practically confirmed me lol
Barney
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Okay, caught up!
  • I really dislike Bullish in #61. Too eager to kill GP; as DiDi expanded upon in #181. Bullish again seems eager to kill in #225, this time SirAnon (unlikely to succeed ... something about them feels fishy. Bonus thought, SirAnon might be town but someone unexpected, giving him insider knowledge that there was not a clear theme split for the teams). #724 has analysis of him acting suspicious again. The bastard move in #775 is quite annoying.
  • I dislike Singularity pushing the GP lynch, exemplified well in #203.
  • Oro in #325 VTLing to pressure me, but not tagging me in said pressuring... Probably just a lazy mistake, which I'm over thinking.
  • I've read over the early stuff multiple times, and still have no clue why Singularity and Supa outed themselves.
  • #213 we can't have >2 mislynches.
  • With #348 apparently GP is Yakuza, but oro's list... God damnit, the bold text in this post was all that kept me reading after certain earlier stuff that page; but I guess I have to continue if this game is to make any sense. Immediate thought: if Lunatic is lying, it gets revealed in the graveyard if GP is successfully killed, so Lunatic is town.On the other hand, with #385, they could have been hamming it up knowing the day would not actually end. ... What is with #348 GP not disagreeing with the role he was claimed to have? Eh, whatever...
  • Not liking Pie saying he "full claimed" when he only hinted. The role stuff doesn't sound like Speed, but eventually Speed came forward...

Modifying this dash from Oro, switching the alias links to the post in which they claimed (I find that way more useful).

TOWN                   ROLE                  ALIAS
SupaDudz             LOVER (1of2)     Steve Rogers (not Captain America)
Singularity             LOVER (2of2)     Bucky Barnes
Greyparrot            SUICIDAL (NP3Helmut Zemo
Lunatic                  LYNCHER           T'Challa (and real role)
---
drafterman             .                          .
warren42               .                           .
oromagi                 .                           .
WaterPhoenix        .                          .
Discipulus_Didicit  Uncommon         .
Ragnar                  .                           Team Cap 
---
ILikePie5               ROLE COP         James Rupert Rhodes (role CC)
SirAnonymous       .                          .
Bullish                    .                          (Falcon, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, or Ant-Man)
---
SCUM                   ROLE                  ALIAS


Key Speculations:
  1. No theme split (official)
  2. No quick hammers (official)
  3. No other wincons (official)
  4. Pie has a poor role justification (official)
  5. No vig (well reasoned)
  6. Possible bastard game
  7. GP is probably town
  8. Scum tried to VTL GP (vote count)

oromagi
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@ILikePie5

Didn't you just argue that no worthwhile COP would CC in DP1? 

That was Supa. I argued that a 1 for 1 would be in towns favor, especially considering there could be other power roles out there 
Confirmed, that was Supa talking.  Sorry to mischaracterize.


And Speed practically confirmed me lol
We have both seen Scum generate Mod traffic and falsely claim confirmation

Speed said:
"This is NOT indicative of role or affiliation."

Are you contradicting Speed?


Barney
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@Lunatic
Why VTL Warren?
ILikePie5
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  • Not liking Pie saying he "full claimed" when he only hinted. The role stuff doesn't sound like Speed, but eventually Speed came forward...

It was an honest mistake. My role literally only fits with one character: Lt. Col. Rhodes. And Supa practically confirmed the justification I had was lazy on his part meaning I was telling the truth.
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@Greyparrot
@Discipulus_Didicit
@SirAnonymous
@Singularity
Why are you VTLing Bullish?
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@drafterman
@Vader
@warren42
@oromagi
Why are you VTLing pie?
Bullish
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Counterwagon against Sir.

See this post: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3593/post_links/152988 In the old old days of mafia, it classic scum tell to TP hunt. 

My second point is the thing I've been talking about this whole game. His defense of grey in #63 "No, antagonist doesn't have to be scum" does not make sense, unless he has inside info (info later confirmed by Speed). By all reason, one should come to the conclusion that Zemo is scum. Sir indirectly admits this in #53 and then #260; by his own admission, good vs bad was an "obvious" thematic split, and cap vs iron man was a "highly likely" thematic split; both splits results in Zemo being scum. Sir should at this point at the very least NOT defend Grey based on thematic split, yet continues to do so. Note that his reasoning is explicitly because he didn't believe Zemo was necessarily scummy. I reiterate that thematically, there was no reason to believe Grey's char claim was anything but extremely scummy.

There are 2 options why Sir would have inside info:

1. Sir is town and as a bad guy role, like the heil hydra guy or Ross.
2. Sir is mafia and is a hero char, and his scum mates chars imply there is no thematic split.

I don't believe it's 1, or he would have said something about it by now. So it is likely 2. Ask yourself. If there is a thematic split to the game, and your character is one of the hero characters, do you honestly think it's reasonable for Zemo to be on your side?

Third point, Sir double talks, a meta he displayed in Office, but not Survivor. Double talking is saying something along the lines of  "I scum read player X but I'm probably wrong." Double talking is a tactic used by experienced and noob scum alike to avoid suspicion and make it look like they're scum hunting without actually committing to anything. Here are some examples of Sir double talking:

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3593/post_links/153093 being for and against a Grey lynch at the same time

Examples of contradictions and inconsistencies:

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3593/post_links/153269 SA says sheeping bad, but says nothing about the sheeping here because it's on his buddy DD: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3593/post_links/153545

#53 and #260 good vs evil "obvious," cap vs iron man "highly likely," contradicts #230 "Or I could just think that no one possibility was more likely than another, so there was no thematic basis to use to reach conclusions about Grey's character (which is what I thought)."

He also exhibits the CLASSIC SCUM TELL of OMGUS (against me in #266) and buddying his townreader (DD in post #311). That's also part of his scum meta from Office.

Sir's meta as mafia in Office:

Contradicts himself
Accuses people of being anti-town for scumhunting
purse-clutching conservative play
buddies people who town read him
double talk

Here's an example of Sir's blatant contradiction in Office:

The implication being it's bad for mafia to know your claim.
Then immediately contradicts that implication by claiming vanilla with only 2 votes on him:

And then there's this post" https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3593/post_links/153500 it just reeks fake. That's the gut read. If sir made no other posts except that one, I'd be gut reading him scum.

I wanna lynch Sir.

VTL Sir

Singularity
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@Barney
My gut tells me pie is town. I have bullish in the null pile and a pretty large town pool
Bullish
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If you're sheeping DD's scum read on me, all his stated reasons are wrong. The gut read is the only one I'd buy but everything else is wrong.
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@drafterman
SA was on your 3 man elimination list. Vote him. I urge you to reread Pie and find that he is not scum. Single and Supa will likely get on board. We can get this going.
ILikePie5
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@oromagi
Are you contradicting Speed?

He knows he fucked up lol. To both be “neutral” and not bastard at the same time he has to include that. But I think it was Supa who mentioned that his role was perfectly justified, and mine being the only role not correct should say something. By no means I’m “confirmed” town. I’m just saying that it should be thought upon along with the fact that I’m the only investigative town role so far, without a CC. It would be unprecedented to lynch a claimed cop DP1
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oromagi
Greyparrot             SUICIDAL       Helmut Zemo
TOWN
WaterPhoenix
drafterman
Discipulus_Didicit
SirAnonymous
warren42
Bullish                    (Falcon, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, or Ant-Man)
SupaDudz             LOVER (1of2)    Steve Rogers
Singularity             LOVER (2of2)    Bucky Barnes
ILikePie5                ROLE COP       James Rupert Rhodes
Ragnar                   (Falcon, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, or Ant-Man)

SCUM
Lunatic                  LYNCHER       T'Challa

A Mostly Inaccurate Vote Count

Vote Count

ILikePie5 - drafterman, warren42, SupaDudz, oromagi, Lunatic
Bullish - Discipulus_Didicit, Singularity, GreyParrot, SirAnonymous
WaterPhoenix WaterPhoenix
VTNL Ragnar

Not Voting: ILikePie5, Bullish



Greyparrot
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@ILikePie5
@Speedrace
This is NOT indicative of role or affiliation.

Ty for town confirming another player mod....

Bullish
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@ILikePie5
Would you say this

As a town Role Cop, possibly being the only power role
Then immediately say this

I’m assuming town has more power roles considering everyone has a role

ILikePie5
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@Greyparrot
Ty for town confirming another player mod....

I’m not necessarily “confirmed” I’m just more likely to be town, which I’ve been trying to say for the past 2 pages.
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@ILikePie5
Nah, anyone with a brain knows that's a straight-up mod soft confirmation.
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@ILikePie5
Checking your wagon for scum one min...
warren42
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@Bullish
Because he's scum and therefore his thoughts are scattered. He's concerned with his image more than any sort of logic or reasoning.
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@Bullish
Would you say this

As a town Role Cop, possibly being the only power role
Then immediately say this

I’m assuming town has more power roles considering everyone has a role

As of now I’m the only power role...it possible I could be the only one. Or it’s possibly the are more. I don’t know lol. I believe in either not just the first or the last, if that makes sense
Vader
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@Speedrace
Are you fucking kidding me
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@warren42
Because he's scum and therefore his thoughts are scattered. He's concerned with his image more than any sort of logic or reasoning.
My thoughts are more likely to be scattered as town than as scum.

Vader
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Wtf bro. Granting justification claims is idiotic
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Pie is fucking confirmed, are you actually kidding me, this is soft confirming someone for sure since he claimed no link. Pie is town confirmed

Unvote VTL Bullish
ILikePie5
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@Vader
Wtf bro. Granting justification claims is idiotic

Get off my wagon, I’m literally more likely to be town
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@Vader
Ignore what I said above
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@Bullish
My second point is the thing I've been talking about this whole game. His defense of grey in #63 "No, antagonist doesn't have to be scum" does not make sense, unless he has inside info (info later confirmed by Speed). By all reason, one should come to the conclusion that Zemo is scum. Sir indirectly admits this in #53 and then #260; by his own admission, good vs bad was an "obvious" thematic split, and cap vs iron man was a "highly likely" thematic split; both splits results in Zemo being scum. Sir should at this point at the very least NOT defend Grey based on thematic split, yet continues to do so. Note that his reasoning is explicitly because he didn't believe Zemo was necessarily scummy. I reiterate that thematically, there was no reason to believe Grey's char claim was anything but extremely scummy.

There are 2 options why Sir would have inside info:

1. Sir is town and as a bad guy role, like the heil hydra guy or Ross.
2. Sir is mafia and is a hero char, and his scum mates chars imply there is no thematic split.

I don't believe it's 1, or he would have said something about it by now. So it is likely 2. Ask yourself. If there is a thematic split to the game, and your character is one of the hero characters, do you honestly think it's reasonable for Zemo to be on your side?
I've debunked this so many times. This is so ridiculous. There were several different possibilities that were obvious and fairly likely.
Third point, Sir double talks, a meta he displayed in Office, but not Survivor. Double talking is saying something along the lines of  "I scum read player X but I'm probably wrong."
That may have something to do with the fact that I am usually wrong. Here's an interesting statistic for you: I have a 0% success rate at scum hunting. I have only lynched scum twice. One time, the mafia conceded. The other time, the mafia failed to vote, leaving me no choice but to lynch them. I have never caught scum of my own volition. Long story short, you shouldn't be surprised that I expect to be wrong.
Discipulus_Didicit
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@SirAnonymous
Warren brought up the point of what justification Pie could have for Rhodey being a role cop. What do y'all think of this?

Weren't people complaining earlier in the DP about how GP and others had pretty weak justifications? Speaking for myself my justification is a bit of a stretch too, pretty sure speed designed the game by making a bunch of roles then trying to find characters to match the roles rather than the other way around (which is the correct way to do it really).
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@ILikePie5
Dude. Every single person has a role. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.