A couple weeks ago, Iran shot down a plane and killed like 57 Canadians. So should Trudeau have taken military action?
Should Justin Trudeau seek revenge on Iran?
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@DynamicSquid
He should wait for America to fight their war, just like every other country does.
-_-
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@bmdrocks21
He should wait for America to fight their war, just like every other country does.
maybe america should stop assuming it has the right or the authority to go to war with everyone.
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@HistoryBuff
maybe america should stop assuming it has the right or the authority to go to war with everyone.
Probably. Although I don't really care about the "right" or "authority". I care that it is a waste of resources and soldier lives.
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@DynamicSquid
Uhhh no? Taking military action is in neither country's best interests. The downing of the plane was a tragic accident and should be settled with reparations towards the families of the deceased.
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@bmdrocks21
Probably. Although I don't really care about the "right" or "authority". I care that it is a waste of resources and soldier lives.
Right and authority are important when you want allies and co-operation. If america want other countries to assist it in advancing it's goals, they have to feel like america is their their ally. When america acts like a giant asshole and tries to dictate policy to other countries, that only undermines foreign policy objectives.
And without allies and co-operation, things get alot more expensive.
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@HistoryBuff
I mean, that sounds fine and all, but it really boils down to this: either you need to do something or you don’t. If it is absolutely necessary, you have to do something regardless and you can try to get as much help as possible. If you don’t need to do something, you shouldn’t. It is the responsibility of our government to keep our citizens safe and honor treaties. Anything outside of that shouldn’t be engaged in at all, I would say
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@bmdrocks21
He should wait for America to fight their war, just like every other country does.
this is exactly what the soy boy will do, that and pay a ton of money to get the bodies back and reimburse them for their missiles, but seriously what country has ever been intimidated or afraid of Canada? No one take this "guy" seriously or is intimidated by "him"
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
It's obvious that Iran doesn't care about what Canada would do, or they would have continued to deny any responsibility in launching the missile once they realized the USA was not going to do anything.
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@Greyparrot
I think Iran should restitute the families of those who lost their lives a mutually agreed rate.
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@Greyparrot
Have the Iranians said how they would ensure this wouldn't happen in the future, you know things that civilized nations would do. They will have no problems in sacrificing some scapegoats for this "accident"
Anything, any gesture would appease the soy boy, he is a spineless coward imo, either that or the news has failed to adequately cover his harsh criticism and condemnation on this "accident"
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@bmdrocks21
I mean, that sounds fine and all, but it really boils down to this: either you need to do something or you don’t. If it is absolutely necessary, you have to do something regardless and you can try to get as much help as possible. If you don’t need to do something, you shouldn’t.
America doesn't "need" to do anything in most of the world. By that metric, america should just stop doing anything. I think the far better way of looking at it is to look at the world as a community that you need to get along with. When america just gives it's allies the middle finger and does what it wants, it's "allies" realize they aren't really allies. Then america finds itself increasingly ignored and ostracized as decisions are made by others.
For example, right now most of america's allies are just sort of planning around the US. There is no point talking to the US about things because trump will just throw a fit or break his word at the drop of a hat anyway. Germany has largely become the leader of the free world in america's absence.
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@HistoryBuff
Germany has largely become the leader of the free world in america's absence.
That's scary considering how much fossil fuel Germany buys from Russia.
EU buys 20% of Iranian oil which is then used to pay for missiles to shoot Canadians.
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@Greyparrot
EU buys 20% of Iranian oil which is then used to pay for missiles to shoot Canadians.
If trump hadn't torched the Iran deal and then murdered their 2nd most powerful political leader, then no missiles would have been fired. Don't pretend like america didn't have a big part to play in this tragedy.
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@HistoryBuff
You are right. Those missiles would have gone to Hezbollah and Hamas. Those bastions of world peace.
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@Greyparrot
You are right. Those missiles would have gone to Hezbollah and Hamas. Those bastions of world peace.
As opposed to america which arms different terrorists and mass murderers? American weapons are killing civilians all over the world. Why do you feel that Iran is evil for taking plays right out of the american playbook?
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@HistoryBuff
Germany had the right idea. If you want world peace, surrender to Russia.
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@Greyparrot
Germany had the right idea. If you want world peace, surrender to Russia.
Buying things from a country is surrendering to them? So america has surrendered to half the world?
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@HistoryBuff
Under Hillary, we did when we gave Uranium to the Russians. No shame in surrender for the sake of world peace.
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@Greyparrot
Under Hillary, we did when we gave Uranium to the Russians. No shame in surrender for the sake of world peace.
trade is not surrender, it is trade. Everyone trades with other countries. It is how the modern economy works. To think that trading with a country is "surrendering" is extremely isolationist.
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@HistoryBuff
Exactly! Tribute as a means to world peace is not shameful.
Hamas has a gofundme page up if you want to contribute to world peace.
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@Greyparrot
Exactly! Tribute as a means to world peace is not shameful.
Trade is not tribute. it is trade. You give something to them, they give something to you. That is the cornerstone of civilization.
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@HistoryBuff
Like I said, the cornerstone of civilization, Hezbollah, is accepting tribute on its gofundme page.
See you there soon for the sake of world peace.
You don't need 2 billion in unmarked bills on pallets, any amount will help.
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@HistoryBuff
By that metric, america should just stop doing anything.
We should stop a lot of what we are doing, yes.
When america just gives it's allies the middle finger and does what it wants, it's "allies" realize they aren't really allies.
Generally, outside of trade, the relationship is rather parasitic. Most NATO countries can't even contribute the minimum % of GDP to their own defense. They expect us to bail them out. Most countries aren't very good allies to us, either. Terrorism like ISIS is a much bigger threat to Europe than the US, but what did they do to stop them? Very little.
I think the far better way of looking at it is to look at the world as a community that you need to get along with
To a limited extent. I don't want a bunch of impoverished developing nations telling Americans how to live. There are times for cooperation, though, like stopping genocides. The UN, not the US, should get involved in that.
For example, right now most of america's allies are just sort of planning around the US. There is no point talking to the US about things because trump will just throw a fit or break his word at the drop of a hat anyway. Germany has largely become the leader of the free world in america's absence.
How do you figure that Germany is somehow the leader of the free world? They are slowing down economically and are dealing with a gigantic refugee crisis. Not doing too great.
And what is getting planned around us?
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@bmdrocks21
Generally, outside of trade, the relationship is rather parasitic. Most NATO countries can't even contribute the minimum % of GDP to their own defense.
because it is unnecessary. Cuts to military spending started to be made because there was no real threat that required that level of spending. As an alliance, NATO's military spending massively dwarfs anyone they could theoretically fight. Don't blame other countries because the US is addicted to massive, runaway military spending.
They expect us to bail them out. Most countries aren't very good allies to us, either.
How? What are those other countries doing that undermines america?
Terrorism like ISIS is a much bigger threat to Europe than the US, but what did they do to stop them? Very little.
The US created ISIS. The power vacuum that was created by the american actions in the middle east created the problem. Then republicans whine that other countries wont spend billions of dollars to help clean up the US's mess.
How do you figure that Germany is somehow the leader of the free world? They are slowing down economically and are dealing with a gigantic refugee crisis. Not doing too great.
In order to be a leader, people have to be willing to follow you. America has decided that it doesn't give a crap what anyone thinks. It will invade anyone, murder anyone, sanction anyone they want at any time no matter what anyone (even their allies) have to say about it. At least under Obama or even bush, the US government pretended like they cared what their allies think. Trump has dropped the game entirely and is just trying to dictate orders. The only "allies" he listens to are the Saudi's and the russians.
because it is unnecessary. Cuts to military spending started to be made because there was no real threat that required that level of spending. As an alliance, NATO's military spending massively dwarfs anyone they could theoretically fight. Don't blame other countries because the US is addicted to massive, runaway military spending.
What is the point of an alliance when there is no enemy if you say Russia is as toothless and no real threat as you claim it is.
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@HistoryBuff
because it is unnecessary. Cuts to military spending started to be made because there was no real threat that required that level of spending. As an alliance, NATO's military spending massively dwarfs anyone they could theoretically fight. Don't blame other countries because the US is addicted to massive, runaway military spending.
Yes, the US spends too much on the military. We spend 3.5% of our GDP on it. However, the NATO requirement is a meager 2%. 19 of 29 countries aren't meeting it, Germany included. How is that for the "leader of the free world"? Completely unable to defend said free world.
How? What are those other countries doing that undermines america?
It is the lack of contribution and the expectation that we will do most/all of the work when they have some sort of threat to deal with. That is why they are being poor allies. If they don't want to spend the amount, then they can leave NATO. If you think NATO is obsolete, which I would probably agree with, then maybe we should all leave and spend whatever we want. However, if they choose to remain in it and reap the benefits, they must contribute what they are required to.
The US created ISIS. The power vacuum that was created by the american actions in the middle east created the problem. Then republicans whine that other countries wont spend billions of dollars to help clean up the US's mess.
Woah there, bucko. The Democrats, Obama and Hillary Clinton, created ISIS. We were left cleaning up YOUR mess, which we did so rather efficiently. But, yeah, Middle Eastern terrorism is much more harmful to them than us, so you'd think they would try to help with it every once in a while. I think we should leave and let them deal with it.
In order to be a leader, people have to be willing to follow you. America has decided that it doesn't give a crap what anyone thinks. It will invade anyone, murder anyone, sanction anyone they want at any time no matter what anyone (even their allies) have to say about it. At least under Obama or even bush, the US government pretended like they cared what their allies think. Trump has dropped the game entirely and is just trying to dictate orders. The only "allies" he listens to are the Saudi's and the russians.
Dude, Trump has been harder on Russia than Obama ever was, so cut that crap immediately. I don't like his Saudi Arabia dealings, though. And although I'm not entirely pleased about how Trump treats allies, I would prefer his American nationalism to Obama bending us over during his "apology tour".
I would prefer his American nationalism to Obama bending us over during his "apology tour".
"Now let's set the record straight. There is no argument over the choice between peace and war, but there is only one guaranteed way you can have peace--and you can have it in the next second--surrender. Admittedly there is a risk in any course we follow other than this, but every lesson in history tells us that the greater risk lies in appeasement, and this is the specter our well-meaning liberal friends refuse to face--that their policy of accommodation is appeasement, and it gives no choice between peace and war, only between fight and surrender. If we continue to accommodate, continue to back and retreat, eventually, we have to face the final demand--the ultimatum. And what then? When Nikita Khrushchev has told his people he knows what our answer will be? He has told them that we are retreating under the pressure of the Cold War, and someday when the time comes to deliver the ultimatum, our surrender will be voluntary because by that time we will have weakened from within spiritually, morally, and economically. He believes this because from our side he has heard voices pleading for "peace at any price" or "better Red than dead," or as one commentator put it, he would rather "live on his knees than die on his feet." And therein lies the road to war, because those voices don't speak for the rest of us. You and I know and do not believe that life is so dear and peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery.
If nothing in life is worth dying for, when did this begin--just in the face of this enemy? Or should Moses have told the children of Israel to live in slavery under the pharaohs? Should Christ have refused the cross? Should the patriots at Concord Bridge have thrown down their guns and refused to fire the shot heard 'round the world? The martyrs of history were not fools, and our honored dead who gave their lives to stop the advance of the Nazis didn't die in vain. Where, then, is the road to peace? Well, it's a simple answer after all. You and I have the courage to say to our enemies, "There is a price we will not pay." There is a point beyond which they must not advance. This is the meaning in the phrase of Barry Goldwater's "peace through strength."
Winston Churchill said that "the destiny of man is not measured by material computation. When great forces are on the move in the world, we learn we are spirits--not animals." And he said, "There is something going on in time and space, and beyond time and space, which, whether we like it or not, spells duty." You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on Earth, or we will sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness."
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@bmdrocks21
Yes, the US spends too much on the military. We spend 3.5% of our GDP on it. However, the NATO requirement is a meager 2%. 19 of 29 countries aren't meeting it, Germany included. How is that for the "leader of the free world"? Completely unable to defend said free world.
Those targets are based on a cold war world where the possibility of a war with russia was very real. Even without spending 2% NATO countries spend more than most of the rest of the world.
It is the lack of contribution and the expectation that we will do most/all of the work when they have some sort of threat to deal with. That is why they are being poor allies
Contribution to what exactly? how does spending a billions on tanks actually accomplish anything? They aren't at war. There is little to no chance of them getting into a war because collectively, NATO massively outguns everyone else.
Woah there, bucko. The Democrats, Obama and Hillary Clinton, created ISIS.
The US invasion of Iraq created the power vacuum. That's on Bush.
But, yeah, Middle Eastern terrorism is much more harmful to them than us, so you'd think they would try to help with it every once in a while.
Help how? By bombing women and children and creating more terrorists? Because that is what america is doing.
Dude, Trump has been harder on Russia than Obama ever was, so cut that crap immediately.
How exactly is that? He has had to be arm twisted at every step into doing anything at all about russia.
I would prefer his American nationalism to Obama bending us over during his "apology tour
lol you prefer treating american allies like crap than treating them like equals. That says alot about you.
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@HistoryBuff
lol you prefer treating American allies like equals rather than holding them accountable. That says alot about you.