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@BrotherDThomas
You need a new comedy writer. :
I got one, but Mel suggested Alexa as your vocal alarm clock.
I just couldn't be that cruel.
What is your favorite argument for the existence of God?
Posts
Total:
436
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@Barney
@PGA2.0
@Tradesecret
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PGA2.0,
YOU AGREEING WITH JESUS AND TRADESECRET RELATIVE TO MATTHEW 15: 1-4 QUOTE IN YOUR POST #212: "I see nothing wrong with TradeSecrets opinion since he is expressing a biblical perspective and how he sees it as should be applied today." YOUR ADDITIONAL QUOTE OF SAME, POST #235: "TradeSecret is not promoting violence. He is stating what he believes the Bible teaches"
Okay, then you as well promote that anyone that curses their parents ARE TO BE PUT TO DEATH today and into the future! Since Tradesecret got a free pass on this issue where moderator Ragnar did not think that he violated the COC rules on promoting criminal activities and threatening or promoting violence against any person or persons in the future, then you shall receive the same pass as well, praise! To jog your memory, Tradesecret stated: “And I would think that if people do curse their parents - unless there is a jolly good reason to do so - then they should be put to death." Hmmmmm. :(
Here is the blatant irony, if YOU murdered your offspring because they cursed you as Jesus says you are able to do (Matthew 15:1-4), then you would be tried and more so than not found guilty of this offense. Why? Because that is the law of man today in the year of 2020 in the USA and other countries. Besides, Jesus' inspired words states that you are to obey mans laws: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:1-2).
BUT WAIT! Then we have Peter that states the opposite in the following: " But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29). WHOOPS!
A. We are to obey man's laws in 2020, and Jesus agrees because He instituted said laws through Himself for man.
B. Peter says to obey Jesus' laws rather than man, which include murdering of anyone that curses their parents (Matthew 15:1-4)
NOW WHAT???! WHATS THE LATEST APOLOGETIC AND INSIDIOUS SPIN ON THIS PREDICAMENT OF CONTRADICTION? I need to know the latest spin from you guys, and at the same time, how to look intelligent looking in the aftermath when I use said spin on this topic, so I can continue to promote our perceived ever loving and forgiving Jesus to others, okay? Thanks.
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@BrotherDThomas
YOU AGREEING WITH JESUS AND TRADESECRET RELATIVE TO MATTHEW 15: 1-4 QUOTE IN YOUR POST #212: "I see nothing wrong with TradeSecrets opinion since he is expressing a biblical perspective and how he sees it as should be applied today." YOUR ADDITIONAL QUOTE OF SAME, POST #235: "TradeSecret is not promoting violence. He is stating what he believes the Bible teaches"Okay, then you as well promote that anyone that curses their parents ARE TO BE PUT TO DEATH today and into the future! Since Tradesecret got a free pass on this issue where moderator Ragnar did not think that he violated the COC rules on promoting criminal activities and threatening or promoting violence against any person or persons in the future, then you shall receive the same pass as well, praise! To jog your memory, Tradesecret stated: “And I would think that if people do curse their parents - unless there is a jolly good reason to do so - then they should be put to death." Hmmmmm. :(
Here you go, doing what you always do, putting words in my mouth. I said there was a lesson to be learned, that it is good to obey GODLY parents, that our time on earth would be prolonged. I gave the reason; they provide wise council. God appointed them as our guardians until we reach an age of accountability and are able to reason soundly for ourselves. Godly parents should be consulted, even after we leave the nest. Wise counselors give sound perspectives.
As for the Old Covenant and covenant people Jesus came to in the 1st-century, those people no longer live in covenant relationship, and the Old Covenant is obsolete, no longer applicable to the Christian. It has been met in Jesus Christ in whom we put our trust and allegiance. We live under a new covenant before God, one of grace and mercy, not of works. No human being has been successful in living in complete obedience to that old covenant, except Jesus Christ. He became a human to fulfill the Father's wishes, and was completely obedient to the Father. You, nor I am.
Here is the blatant irony, if YOU murdered your offspring because they cursed you as Jesus says you are able to do (Matthew 15:1-4), then you would be tried and more so than not found guilty of this offense. Why? Because that is the law of man today in the year of 2020 in the USA and other countries. Besides, Jesus' inspired words states that you are to obey mans laws: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:1-2).
We are to obey the laws of the land in as much as they don't go against the greater authority - God. For instance, I do not accept abortion as morally permissible except when the woman's life is in danger and the unborn's life has not developed enough to save it.
I use the resource that God has given me, I protest in a non-violent way by using my voice, my intellect, to oppose unjust practices, and I pray to God for His justice to prevail on unjust rule.
BUT WAIT! Then we have Peter that states the opposite in the following: " But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29). WHOOPS!A. We are to obey man's laws in 2020, and Jesus agrees because He instituted said laws through Himself for man.B. Peter says to obey Jesus' laws rather than man, which include murdering of anyone that curses their parents (Matthew 15:1-4)
You confuse the OT with the new. Matthew 15:1-4 is addressing a specific 1st-century audience as the primary audience. Note the boldened text below.
Matthew 15:1-12 (NASB)
Tradition and Commandment
15 Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3 And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” 6 he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’”
10 After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. 11 It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”
12 Then the disciples *came and *said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?”
Where is your name or mine mentioned?
Again, Jesus is addressing an Old Covenant people concerning the Mosaic law. As for Jesus' instruction to His disciples:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
NOW WHAT???! WHATS THE LATEST APOLOGETIC AND INSIDIOUS SPIN ON THIS PREDICAMENT OF CONTRADICTION? I need to know the latest spin from you guys, and at the same time, how to look intelligent looking in the aftermath when I use said spin on this topic, so I can continue to promote our perceived ever loving and forgiving Jesus to others, okay? Thanks.
There is no contradiction. You confuse two covenants.
The latest spin? Consider yourself as the one spinning out of control of reason.
The Jesus you say never existed?
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@Tradesecret
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Tradesecret, DEBATE RUNAWAY,
Addressing your normal inept MO regarding the Bible, here are a few more of your outright embarrassing propositions:
YOUR INSIPID QUOTE, LOL!: “I note the following for those watching. Jesus used the term children here not in the sense of minors but of adults. He was addressing adults, those who had money. Minors did not have money in those particular days (or very little anyway) and minors could not be pharisees. These are the facts and the facts are not in dispute and no one includng the brother has countered this fact. “
YOUR INSIPID QUOTE, LOL!: “I note the following for those watching. Jesus used the term children here not in the sense of minors but of adults. He was addressing adults, those who had money. Minors did not have money in those particular days (or very little anyway) and minors could not be pharisees. These are the facts and the facts are not in dispute and no one includng the brother has countered this fact. “
!!!ROFLOL!!! Your turnaround was revealing, again, you left out your comical and embarrassing post #218 where you are now HYPOCRITICAL to your first position regarding children as children in the true sense of the term, and where you tried so hard in continuing to use the term “children” now as adults by bending over backwards to defend your Satanic position. Priceless TURNAROUND claims at your embarrassing expense once again. LOL!
YOUR WANTING QUOTE: “Oh by the way, why have you run away from my response to you in your Catholic forum topic? Is it because once more you have revealed yourself to be ignorant and clumsy?”
I have always thought that when I easily make a pseudo-christian like you the fool that they are, and it is in an intense thread, I leave it to one thread at a time so you can heal more quickly, okay? Don’t worry, I will show you how wrong you were ONCE AGAIN upon that topic as well. Be prepared when I do it this time, okay?
YOUR QUOTE THAT DOES NOT AGREE WITH LOGIC 101 AND JESUS' INTENTION: “Nevertheless, I maintain that I did not cite violence against any person, adult or child.”
Your quote in question that relates to ANYONE, instead of your Bible ignorance of using the term “children,” was the following: “And I would think that if people do curse their parents - unless there is a jolly good reason to do so - then they should be put to death.”
YOUR COMICAL PROPOSITION IN NOT CITING VIOLENCE TOWARDS ANY PERSON, ADULT OR CHILD: The topic is ANYONE and within your syntactical sentence structure, it most certainly is citing violence without question in stating, in part, “ THEN THEY SHOULD BE PUT TO DEATH!”
1. You are stating that ANYONE that curses their parents are to be put to death in that you AGREE with Jesus in an absolute manner and at any time of an infraction to Matthew 15: 1-4.
2. You are proposing that if you have ANYONE that is your offspring, they too should be put to death if they curse you, period.
3. The syntactical sentence structure of your sentence contains the following words in a "structure" of the complete sentence that supports without question, that you are citing VIOLENCE:
2. You are proposing that if you have ANYONE that is your offspring, they too should be put to death if they curse you, period.
3. The syntactical sentence structure of your sentence contains the following words in a "structure" of the complete sentence that supports without question, that you are citing VIOLENCE:
A. THEN: (adverb) which means at a particular time in the past or in the future.
B. THEY: (pronoun) used to refer to two or more people
C. SHOULD: (modal verb) used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness
D. BE: (prefix) to take place; happen; occur
E. PUT: (transitive verb) to take place; happen; occur:
F. TO: (preposition) toward a point, person, place, or thing, implied or understood.
G. DEATH: (noun) the act of dying, the end of life.
to cause (a person) to experience the endurance or suffering (of)to put to death; to put to the sword
To now address your ignorance of the English Language, along with your Biblical ignorance, then as explicitly shown above regarding your complete sentence, YOU ARE IN FACT PROMOTING VIOLENCE! 2+2=4! Your embarrassing statements will be held to the fire now, and into the future, do you understand?
In closing, have you found your “big boy pants” yet, where even though you are SCARED, you will actually debate me on Jesus' TRUE MO, instead of RUNNING AWAY with your insipid and embarrassing lame EXCUSES? Whats your excuse going to be? Maybe something like this: “The moon has to be in its second phase and the ISS has to be within 5 degrees over your dwelling, and you haven’t eaten Mexican food in the last 32 days, 15 hours, and 12 minutes?
Don't let the chicken feathers pile up too high where you won't be able to see your computer screen
RUN TRADESECRET, RUN! LOL!
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@PGA2.0
PGA2.0,
YOUR MORE THAN BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE: "As for the Old Covenant and covenant people Jesus came to in the 1st-century, those people no longer live in covenant relationship, and the Old Covenant is obsolete, no longer applicable to the Christian."
Listen up you minion of Satan, where did I mention the Old Testament in my post #242 where Jesus CONDONES the murdering of ANYONE that curses their parents, whether the foundation of Jesus stating this biblical axiom is in Matthew 15: 1-4 which is the New Testament, or the Old Testament that He refers too does not matter! Like your equally Bible dumbfounded Tradesecret, are you now calling Jesus a LIAR in Matthew 15:1-4?!
Your complete Bible ignorance has no bounds! What part of Jesus' Sermon on the Mount don't you understand relative to the Old Testament writings are to be followed now and forever as stated by none other than, Jesus???!
Jesus H. Christ, it is to bad that DEBATEART can't give an impromptu live test relative to the Bible before one can become a member, which would quickly eliminate the PGA2.0's, and most importantly, the equally dumbfounded of the Bible, the Tradesecrets from being able to join! LOL
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@Tradesecret
Let's try that again. Is Jesus also the God Jehovah?I thought I had already answered you.You haven't. Is all you have done is circle the question. And we all know why? Your god is a killer of innocents no matter in what guise you prefer to address him as. Unless of course, Jesus is a different god to Jehovah. Which the bible states that there are indeed many other gods.Again, this is what you get when you adopt a god of who you know nothing and from a time and place you know absolutely nothing at all about.No I have answered the question. Jesus is God.
No you haven't stop telling lies. I have asked you is Jesus Jehovah? You are avoiding answering this question direct and honest because you know that it would put Jesus in the frame for millions of innocent deaths! As I keep telling you, this is what you get when you adopt a god of who you know nothing and from a time and place you know absolutely nothing at all about.
Jesus was not a god. Jesus was a rightful heir to the throne of Jerusalem. He was a very human King of the Jews NOT Christians. All kings of Jerusalem were called `sons of god'.
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@Stephen
No you haven't stop telling lies. I have asked you is Jesus Jehovah? You are avoiding answering this question direct and honest because you know that it would put Jesus in the frame for millions of innocent deaths! As I keep telling you, this is what you get when you adopt a god of who you know nothing and from a time and place you know absolutely nothing at all about.Jesus was not a god. Jesus was a rightful heir to the throne of Jerusalem. He was a very human King of the Jews NOT Christians. All kings of Jerusalem were called `sons of god'.
Stephen, why are you so obnoxious? I actually don't tell lies. Not intentionally anyway - which means by definition I don't tell lies since by definition a lie has to be by intention. I In other words, it is impossible to tell lies accidentally. Just because I don't want to play your game, does not mean I am lying or that I am avoiding your question. Surely you don't live in a two dimensional world where the only answer is a simplistic one? I don't hold to the view that the world is simple. In other words, I don't have a left wing progressive view. Nor am I am conservative of a right wing disposition.
You asked whether Jesus was Jehovah. I think the name Jehovah is an incorrect understanding of the real name of the Lord in the OT. I have stated this before but you keep asking if I think Jesus is Jehovah. I seem to recall you got rather upset a while ago because I called you Steve or something like that. Why? Because your name means something to you. Yet like the hypocrite you are - you continue the charade that you actually care.
I think it is not correct to identify Jesus with Jehovah or YHWH in a simple yes or not response. As I said in my previous post - it is not that simple. Yet, your response reveals an interesting prejudice and bias which I find quite amusing. You actually think I am avoiding such a connection because "it would put Jesus in the frame for millions of innocent deaths!". Are you for real? I have no such view and your position is wrong. I have indicated even to you quite recently that I think the OT picture of God is Holy. He never kills anyone who is innocent. And whether you link the OT to Jesus or not does not change my view. Do you even see your prejudice a little bit?
Wow! I am of the view that Jesus is God. The book of Philippians 2:1-11 clearly indicates that he is God as do other places in the OT and the NT. Paul's entire argument in relation to humility is based on the fact of God humbling himself. The passage makes no sense unless Jesus is GOD. The Christian position is that GOD is Trinity. I don't particularly care if you don't understand or believe in the Trinity - but the Christian Church does. It is one of the hallmarks that sets Christianity apart from EVERY other religion. No other religion including the ancient ones - has an understanding of God like the Trinity of the Christian church. Yes, other religions have a semblance of one - but it does not even come close. And to pretend that they are close is nonsense and intellectual dishonest in the extreme.
Nevertheless, because God is Trinity - whom I see in the whole as the God presented in the OT, it is incorrect to simply try and identify Jesus as the same. Jesus is God - but Jesus is not the Trinity. Nor is the Father or the Holy Spirit. The three together constitute the Holy Trinity. ONE God - three persons, not parts, but persons.
In regards to the character of the GOD of the OT, God is holy and just. He is totally lawful and just in accordance with his own laws and rules - since he is not under jurisdiction of anyone but his own holy character. For you to attempt to bring even one charge against the God of the OT, you need to be able to have standing to do so. What standing do you propose that you have and under what jurisdiction do you propose to insist that you have standing? And furthermore, let's pretend for a moment that you have both standing and jurisdiction, on what power do you rely upon to exercise any ruling you might actually succeed upon?
It is one of the most pointless exercises in the history of humanity to attempt to bring a charge against God. And yet it seems you spend your time - or at least quite a large amount of it doing just that. The bible on the other hand is quite clear to most people who read it. It is quite simple really. God made the world including humanity. Humanity chose to rebel against God and was justly punished. Game over. And yet even at this point, God, not man decided to execute his eternal plan to assist all humans prepared to repent of their treason against him. This still amazes me. Humanity already on death row - no question of their guilt at all - and God in his mercy and grace still despite the fact that most of humanity hates him - to save some anyway. What strikes me Stephen is that you find this repugnant. For me the amazement is staggering.
I don't see the issue with God knowing all things. Yes, if I want to believe that God cruelly did it- I still have to explain all of the loving and kind things that happen everyday as well. Why is it that people see God knowing the future as cruel but omit the kind and loving things that occur as well? To suggest that God is cruel - is inconsistent with these things. These lovely and kind things prove the lie of the God is cruel picture.
In relation to your argument that every king of Israel is called Son of God, I say prove it. If for instance I find one king of Israel who was not called Son of God, does that prove you wrong? And I certainly hope you would not be foolish enough to rely upon an argument from silence. Yet, what you fail to realise that even if every king of Israel is called the Son of God - this does not logically prevent Jesus from being GOD. How about you prove the point? It is quite logically possible that a proper heir of the throne of David could not only be called the Son of God as a title - but in fact be the TRUE SON of GOD. To say otherwise is something that you need to prove.
It seems your argument at the moment is as follows: please correct me if I am wrong: Jesus is a son of David. (You seem to accept this fact) He is called the Son of God. (You also seem to accept this fact) yet because you say (this is yet to be established) that every true heir to the throne of David is entitled to the title of SON of GOD, that the fact Jesus is called the Son of God means nothing more than he was the legitimate heir to the throne of David. Is that correct? Have I understood you properly?
If I have then I do not see why your reasoning could not also appropriate the possibility that the true God of heaven could condescend himself and so enter the family of David to be called both SON of GOD as title and also Son of God as God. Unless you take the view that GOD is unable to become a human being?
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@Tradesecret
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Tradesecret, DEBATE RUNAWAY, AND BIBLE DENIER OF JESUS BEING THE TRINITY GOD IN THE OT,
YOUR SCHIZOPHRENIC BIBLE QUOTE ABOUT JESUS’ IDENTITY IN YOUR POST #247: “Nevertheless, because God is Trinity - whom I see in the whole as the God presented in the OT, it is incorrect to simply try and identify Jesus as the same. Jesus is God - but Jesus is not the Trinity.”
Huh? Your mish-mash Satanic quote above in that the God presented in the OT has the Triune Doctrine, BUT, you ignorantly state that this God is not Jesus! WTF? Since there is only one God (1 Timothy 2:5), then the God that you mentioned in the OT that you say is not Jesus, has to be Jesus in His overall Triune way! THINK, whether Jesus is mentioned in the Old or New Testaments, He always has is true Trinity Doctrine. DUH! 2+2=4, oil and water don't mix, and your BLATANT BIBLE IGNORANCE AND LIES are unsurpassed by any pseudo-christian on DEBATEART, bar none!
I will prove that your proposition is wrong regarding Jesus NOT being the serial killer HEBREW Triune God named Yahweh in the Old Testament, even though Yahweh in the OT before the New Testament was not in a Triune state that you deceivingly propose, as the Hebrews so state, remember? LOL. For the sake of discussion, only subsequent to the Christians stealing Yahweh for their own God did He received His new identity of a Trinity.
Therefore, tell the membership in where you get the authority to piss on the passages below stating that Jesus, is in fact mentioned in the OT, and is the God of the Old Testament as well, where you say Jesus is not. Are you calling Jesus and the prophets LIARS as you have done before with Jesus alone? Get it Bible fool?
1. Jesus said He spoke to Moses and the OT prophets: “And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” (Luke 24, 25-27)
2. Jesus said Moses spoke of Him in the Old Testament: “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. If you would have believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?” (John 5: 45-47)
3. Jude, the brother of James, ties Jesus to the Old Testament in saying: “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)
4. Moses in the Old Testament was motivated by Jesus: "He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward." (Hebrews 11:26)
5. Jesus ties Himself to the Old Testament again: “Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8: 56-58). The “I Am” that Jesus speaks of, gives a sense of the enigmatic, transcendent and eternal nature of God (Revelation 1:8). The “I Am” in whom Abraham rejoiced in the Old Testament was in fact Jesus as John 8: 56-58 so states.
Tradesecret, seriously, maybe you would be more comfortable in a Childrens Christian Forum, where their complete Bible ignorance is equal to yours, therefore you can all masturbate your feeble Bible ignorant minds together! To save you the needed time in joining a "Kids" Religion forum post haste to save further embarrassment, I have given a few links shown below for this purpose. You can thank me later, okay?
******** Tradesecret, psst, can't find anyone to help you to even "try" to address my post #243 where it was explicitly shown that you did incite violence in agreeing with Jesus regarding Him saying that "ANYONE" that curses their parents should be put to death, when you concluded; "Then they should be put to death," in the name of Jesus? You will NEVER live this quote of yours down while on DEBATEART! *********
Your days are numbered in more ways than one. :(
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@Stephen
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Stephen,
As embarrassingly shown by us, even though you are a Hell bound Atheist, Tradesecret is on borrowed time here on DEBATEART because we are literally and embarrassingly making him the number 1 Bible ignorant pseudo-christian fool in front of the membership! As we know, the runaway ethang5 will be sad that Tradesecret takes over his current position of being #1. LOLl
A little bit of history, I have tried many times in the past in wanting to know what DIVISION of Christianity he has taken into the fold, but to no avail with an answer from him. He obviously is way too embarrassed to tell the membership of which one he "practices," therefore maybe he will tell you in which one? I know you know that this is important when you know what Division of Christianity that he follows, therefore in which "version" of the Christian God he accepts before one can deduce this God's MO to his faith. I am preaching to the choir with you, but remember a case in point, where the Satanic Jehovah God of the Hell bound Jehovah Witness faith, REWROTE the true King James Bible into the Satanic NWT bible which takes away Jesus divinity! Total BLASPHEME!
Barring the FACT that Tradesecret is to SCARED to debate me upon Jesus' TRUE modus operandi that I have explicitly shown, and has come up with every lame child-like excuse known to weak pseudo-christians to not too, we will continue to easily Bible Slap him Silly®️ at his continued expense.
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@BrotherDThomas
Don't pull my quote out of context. It was not directed to you. And as such I don't need a response from you. I don't have to put up with your abuse. So why don't you go and do something else. If you want me to address you - go and find the Catholic topic you put up and respond to my post which I wrote 7 days ago and which you are constantly avoiding and running away from.
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@Tradesecret
Stephen, why are you so obnoxious? I actually don't tell lies.
And now you are not only lying but you have avoided this direct question altogether. And we all know why. You are a fraud who wants it both ways.
You asked whether Jesus was Jehovah.
Yes I have haven't I ? But you have skirted this question and now avoided it like a plague altogether.
I think the name Jehovah is an incorrect understanding of the real name of the Lord in the OT.
I am not interested in what you think. You are a coward that is simply trying to get out of a very tight spot.
I think it is not correct to identify Jesus with Jehovah or YHWH in a simple yes or not response.
Either Jesus is or is not Jehovah of the OT . Again, you are just skirting the issue and offering excuses why you cannot answer the question. But you will say that Jesus is god from the beginning, the Alpha & Omega the beginning and the end, now and always. And to add to that, you are telling us that Jesus is and was the ONLY god to have existed!
The truth is that you dare not directly identify Jesus with the OT god Jehovah because that god -Jehovah aka YHWH, was a murdering psychopath that has murdered and distinguished life for something as simple as a wager and in doing so, this makes the Brothers claim that Jesus as god Jehovah aka YHWH, was a serial murderer and a killer of innocent children.
IMO Jesus would be appalled that a whole new religion has sprung up in his name. He would have called it blasphemy, I'm sure.
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@Stephen
Stephen, why are you so obnoxious? I actually don't tell lies.And now you are not only lying but you have avoided this direct question altogether. And we all know why. You are a fraud who wants it both ways.
LOL @ Stephen. Because I wont play your game, I am lying and a fraud? Surely you jest. I answered your question. Again not in the way you like - but I answered.
You asked whether Jesus was Jehovah.Yes I have haven't I ? But you have skirted this question and now avoided it like a plague altogether.
Well if you were going to be honest, you know you are lying. I have answered you. I certainly have not avoided it. I merely said the answer is more complex than yes or no.
I think the name Jehovah is an incorrect understanding of the real name of the Lord in the OT.I am not interested in what you think. You are a coward that is simply trying to get out of a very tight spot.
Oh Stephen, get over yourself - two lines ago you were DIRECTLY asking me what I think. You were asking me is Jesus Jehovah. Now you don't care what I think. So do you care or not care? You can't have it both ways.
I think it is not correct to identify Jesus with Jehovah or YHWH in a simple yes or not response.Either Jesus is or is not Jehovah of the OT . Again, you are just skirting the issue and offering excuses why you cannot answer the question. But you will say that Jesus is god from the beginning, the Alpha & Omega the beginning and the end, now and always. And to add to that, you are telling us that Jesus is and was the ONLY god to have existed!
Oh so you do care what I think. I was beginning to wonder what you were expecting? Ok - you want an answer. Jesus is not Jehovah as understood in the OT. Jesus was not born in the OT times. Yet the Son of God is eternal from all eternity. And the Son is the second person of the Trinity. The Son of God added to his divinity humanity at the birth or conception of Jesus. And you really should not tell lies. I have said and it above in my other posts that there is ONE GOD. I said that the ONE GOD is the triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I said that there is ONE GOD yet three persons. I said the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Spirit and the Father is not the Holy Spirit. I have never ever said that Jesus is and was the only GOD to have ever existed. yet it is quite true that Jesus is God. And there is one God. But God is not just one person. God is three.
The truth is that you dare not directly identify Jesus with the OT god Jehovah because that god -Jehovah aka YHWH, was a murdering psychopath that has murdered and distinguished life for something as simple as a wager and in doing so, this makes the Brothers claim that Jesus as god Jehovah aka YHWH, was a serial murderer and a killer of innocent children.
I don't have an issue with linking Jesus with the OT God. Where in the world and why would you think otherwise? I don't hold to the revising of the OT God as you do - so I don't have an issue with the OT understanding of God. The God of the OT is a loving God - yet he is also a holy God. He is merciful towards generations and generations and only ever judges someone in accordance with the Law and justly. He never killed anyone or sentenced anyone to death unlawfully. He is not a murdering pychopath - and you nor your Brother have demonstrated otherwise. You can prattle on all you like and repeat yourself - but these things don't make something true.
IMO Jesus would be appalled that a whole new religion has sprung up in his name. He would have called it blasphemy, I'm sure.
Well fantastic for you - just wondering - should I care what you think?
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@Tradesecret
.
Tradesecret, Debate Runaway and Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, and that cannot answer my posts 244 and 248, other than to run away from them,
YOUR QUOTE AFTER BEING SCHOOLED AGAIN BY THE BROTHER D: “Don’t pull my quote out of context.”
Your quote in question: “Nevertheless, because God is Trinity - whom I see in the whole as the God presented in the OT, it is incorrect to simply try and identify Jesus as the same. Jesus is God - but Jesus is not the Trinity.”
“In your quote above is what you exactly stated word for word, of which I broke it down as shown in my response, period. Now, if you have changed your mind because subsequent to REREADING your Satanic word-salad mumbo-jumbo, you got embarrassed, as you should be, then tell us what you thought you meant. Or, if you want to change your quote in any way, tell us what you now want it to mean! LOL!
MOST IMPORTANTLY; HOW CAN ANY PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE YOU STATE IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER THAT JESUS IS NOT THE TRINITY AS YOU STATED IN YOUR QUOTE IN NO MATTER WHAT THE CONTEXT OF THE SENTENCE REFERS TOO???! HOW?! TELL US! WE’RE WAITING!
BEGIN:
Upon the Trinity Doctrine and to correct you once again, the three entities that make up the Triune Doctrine are two persons, and a spirit. You keep stating that the Triune is 3 persons, where a “spirit” cannot be a human person! Get it Bible fool?
Your Bible ignorant quote once again: “There is only one God, the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - 1 God - three persons.”
YOUR REVEALING WIMPY QUOTE OF NOT BEING ABLE TO ADDRESS YOUR COMPLETE BIBLE IGNORANCE, THEREFORE YOU WANT ME TO STAY AWAY FROM IT! LOL! : “It was not directed to you. And as such I don't need a response from you.”
As usual, you’re wrong again in that your biblical ignorance and stupidity is given to everyone to read within this forum, and especially Jesus the Christ sees it as well (Hebrews 4:13). Therefore, it has to be addressed in the name of Jesus no matter if it is addressed to anyone specifically or not, get it Bible fool?
Jesus’ inspired words states with specificity that a TRUE Christian like myself is to defend the faith, and when I see you continually step in the proverbial poo again, and again, and again, and again, in the name of Satan relative to Jesus’ inspired LITERAL words, I have to call you out relative to your outright Devil Speak, understood? Jesus expects nothing less.
YOUR EVER SO COMICAL AND REVEALING QUOTE: “I don't have to put up with your abuse. So why don't you go and do something else.”
Oh, boo hoo, whimper, whimper, sniff sniff, poor little Tradesecret is crying in front of the membership because he has been easily shown to be the #1 Bible ignorant pseudo-christian on DEBATEART, and he doesn’t like to be shown this blatant fact! :(.... Brother D. hands Tradesecret a Kleenex, *sniff sniff.*
I am instructed by none other than Jesus’ inspired words to defend the faith against totally Bible inept pseudo-christians like you. Therefore, who am I to state that Jesus is wrong in this respect? Can I help it if you continue to spew forth your Devil Speak that needs to be addressed in the Name of Jesus? NO! You are the one doing this ungodly action, and therefore you have to accept the consequences!
Jesus' rules that I have to follow when defending the faith at your continued expense:
"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ," (2 Corinthians 10:5)
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ," (2 Corinthians 10:5)
YOUR QUOTE, WHERE IF FOLLOWED, WILL ONLY PILE MORE PROVERBIAL EGG UPON YOUR FACE: “If you want me to address you - go and find the Catholic topic you put up and respond to my post which I wrote 7 days ago and which you are constantly avoiding and running away from.
Barring the FACT that you can’t address me biblically, and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath because of your Satanic biblical ignorance and stupidity, do you really want me to show you to be the continued religionist fool in my Catholic thread a well? I was giving you some time to heal within this thread before I easily blotted you out in the Catholic thread!
Tradesecret, as embarrassingly and blatantly seen in your sophomoric post #250, which is an overwhelmingly terse little boy response, you no more can address my post #244 and #248 anymore than you can get out of being sent to the sulfur lakes of Hell upon your earthly demise because of committing the Unpardonable Sin. You did this by calling Jesus' spirit a LIAR to His direct and literal words in John 10:34-36! Remember? You actually had the audacity to say that what Jesus DIRECTLY and LITERALLY stated in said passage, was not what He stated! This is one of your most comical and ungodly responses that you have ever made! LOL!
Therefore your performance within this thread is so embarrassing, not only to you, but I am sure the membership as well that is watching you RUNAWAY from debating me on the TRUE modus operandi of the Bible Jesus, the running away from my posts numbers 244 and 248 directed to your biblical ignorance and Bible rewrites, and you blatantly committing, without question, the Unpardonable Sin!
RUN TRADESECRET, KEEP RUNNING AWAY BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT YOU ARE GOOD AT! LOL!
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@Tradesecret
Oh Stephen, get over yourself - two lines ago you were DIRECTLY asking me what I think. You were asking me is Jesus Jehovah.
You really are a sly one. I am not asking you what you "think". I have asked is Jesus Jehovah.? The truth is that you dare not directly identify Jesus as also being the OT god Jehovah from the beginning because that god -Jehovah aka YHWH, was a murdering psychopath that has murdered and distinguished life for something as simple as a wager and in doing so, this makes the Brothers claim that Jesus as god Jehovah aka YHWH, was a serial murderer and a killer of innocent children.
should I care what you think?
That is down to you sunshine. But none of your bullshit changes the fact that is all that you have done is prove the Brother to be correct.
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@Stephen
Oh Stephen, get over yourself - two lines ago you were DIRECTLY asking me what I think. You were asking me is Jesus Jehovah.You really are a sly one. I am not asking you what you "think". I have asked is Jesus Jehovah.? The truth is that you dare not directly identify Jesus as also being the OT god Jehovah from the beginning because that god -Jehovah aka YHWH, was a murdering psychopath that has murdered and distinguished life for something as simple as a wager and in doing so, this makes the Brothers claim that Jesus as god Jehovah aka YHWH, was a serial murderer and a killer of innocent children.
So you want me to draw a conclusion without thinking? Is that how you do things is it? LOL! Why do you keep saying I do not dare identify Jesus as being the OT God? I have repeated myself numerous times - saying the exact opposite. What part of that don't you understand? I think - yeah I know you have a problem with that concept - that the OT GOD is a good and a holy God. I reject your conclusion - which obviously you got from not thinking about it, that God is a murdering psychopath. I admire the OT God described in the Bible. He has my respect. He always acts justly and righteously - and his name deserves to be praised to the highest heavens. Can you read these words? Unlike you, I have not fallen privy to taking things out of context. I can see the bigger picture here - which you cannot see. This is why your assertion that I don't want to identify Jesus with OT God is so absurd. If I could simply say yes, I would. I would jump at the opportunity. Yet, I also have some intellectual honesty that I wish to maintain. It is not a simple yes or no. The fact is the Christian GOD is Trinity. You keep say I am dodging the question - and yet all I am doing is attempting to answer the question correctly and in doing so - keeping my understanding of Jesus and the Trinity consistent.
should I care what you think?That is down to you sunshine. But none of your bullshit changes the fact that is all that you have done is prove the Brother to be correct.
LOL - you must have a very warped understanding of what arguments are, how they are validated and what proof is. I guess that does explain some of the loony ideas you put on this forum. It is not like you follow any consistent scientific process of argumentation. You just make stuff up as you go along.
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@BrotherDThomas
Tradesecret, Debate Runaway and Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, and that cannot answer my posts 244 and 248, other than to run away from them,YOUR QUOTE AFTER BEING SCHOOLED AGAIN BY THE BROTHER D: “Don’t pull my quote out of context.”Your quote in question: “Nevertheless, because God is Trinity - whom I see in the whole as the God presented in the OT, it is incorrect to simply try and identify Jesus as the same. Jesus is God - but Jesus is not the Trinity.”
Let me write very slowly for you. I don't want to go to fast just in case you miss what I am saying. Jesus is God. God is a Trinity. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are together the Trinity not any one of them individually. Jesus is also fully man. Yet the Father, who is God is not man. And the Spirit who is God is not man. "in the whole" conveys the OT God as the Triune God.
In your quote above is what you exactly stated word for word, of which I broke it down as shown in my response, period. Now, if you have changed your mind because subsequent to REREADING your Satanic word-salad mumbo-jumbo, you got embarrassed, as you should be, then tell us what you thought you meant. Or, if you want to change your quote in any way, tell us what you now want it to mean! LOL!
I have not changed my mind - this is what Christianity teaches because this is what the Bible teaches. It is not Satanic mumbo jumbo but the tradition of the church.
MOST IMPORTANTLY; HOW CAN ANY PSEUDO-CHRISTIAN LIKE YOU STATE IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER THAT JESUS IS NOT THE TRINITY AS YOU STATED IN YOUR QUOTE IN NO MATTER WHAT THE CONTEXT OF THE SENTENCE REFERS TOO???! HOW?! TELL US! WE’RE WAITING!
Apart from the fact that it is you who are the pseudo -christian, it is not difficult to understand. Jesus is not the Trinity. He is one of the members of the Trinity. Yet by himself he is not the Trinity. In case you do not understand English and the word trinity - it means three and it refers to the collective three. Think of it as parliament for want of a better illustration - every member of parliament is a politician but none can them selves parliament individually. In fact if one member stood up and said I am Parliament - the rest of parliament would shut the individual down - or the country itself would be in uproar. The point is - the Trinity is the collective of the three members of the Godhead. Hence Jesus as an individual cannot be the Trinity. It simply is mixing the one up with the many and that is absurd.
Upon the Trinity Doctrine and to correct you once again, the three entities that make up the Triune Doctrine are two persons, and a spirit. You keep stating that the Triune is 3 persons, where a “spirit” cannot be a human person! Get it Bible fool?
LOL! @ your attempt to be funny. Trinity refers to three - three persons or three members. The Holy Spirit is a person. This is the tradition of the church and it is what Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Charismatics all mean. Only perhaps do the JW take a different view. The Father is also a Spirit. And indeed the Son was prior to his incarnation. God is spirit and God is invisible. In fact that was my point I was making before your fell in a heap referring the bodily and human side of Jesus.
YOUR REVEALING WIMPY QUOTE OF NOT BEING ABLE TO ADDRESS YOUR COMPLETE BIBLE IGNORANCE, THEREFORE YOU WANT ME TO STAY AWAY FROM IT! LOL! : “It was not directed to you. And as such I don't need a response from you.”As usual, you’re wrong again in that your biblical ignorance and stupidity is given to everyone to read within this forum, and especially Jesus the Christ sees it as well (Hebrews 4:13). Therefore, it has to be addressed in the name of Jesus no matter if it is addressed to anyone specifically or not, get it Bible fool?
While it is true that when people post on this forum, it is a public post and as such people respond to others all the time. I accept that. Yet, not every one does so with the same vitriol and venom that you do. Most people at least try and understand properly without trying to pull something out of context.
I am proud for Jesus to see my words. I don't have anything to hide. Yet your pseudo Jesus - the one you claim to represent is a moron. He is a figment of your imagination - and exists only in the cracks in your skull. And the fact that you to carry on in the manner you do is laughable - and well sad and pathetic. Still it is your choice to do so.
Jesus’ inspired words states with specificity that a TRUE Christian like myself is to defend the faith, and when I see you continually step in the proverbial poo again, and again, and again, and again, in the name of Satan relative to Jesus’ inspired LITERAL words, I have to call you out relative to your outright Devil Speak, understood? Jesus expects nothing less.
LoL!
YOUR EVER SO COMICAL AND REVEALING QUOTE: “I don't have to put up with your abuse. So why don't you go and do something else.”Oh, boo hoo, whimper, whimper, sniff sniff, poor little Tradesecret is crying in front of the membership because he has been easily shown to be the #1 Bible ignorant pseudo-christian on DEBATEART, and he doesn’t like to be shown this blatant fact! :(.... Brother D. hands Tradesecret a Kleenex, *sniff sniff.*I am instructed by none other than Jesus’ inspired words to defend the faith against totally Bible inept pseudo-christians like you. Therefore, who am I to state that Jesus is wrong in this respect? Can I help it if you continue to spew forth your Devil Speak that needs to be addressed in the Name of Jesus? NO! You are the one doing this ungodly action, and therefore you have to accept the consequences!
You are instructed by no one else apart from your own self and pride. Blah blah blah
Jesus' rules that I have to follow when defending the faith at your continued expense:"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ," (2 Corinthians 10:5)YOUR QUOTE, WHERE IF FOLLOWED, WILL ONLY PILE MORE PROVERBIAL EGG UPON YOUR FACE: “If you want me to address you - go and find the Catholic topic you put up and respond to my post which I wrote 7 days ago and which you are constantly avoiding and running away from.Barring the FACT that you can’t address me biblically, and remain intelligent looking in the aftermath because of your Satanic biblical ignorance and stupidity, do you really want me to show you to be the continued religionist fool in my Catholic thread a well? I was giving you some time to heal within this thread before I easily blotted you out in the Catholic thread!Tradesecret, as embarrassingly and blatantly seen in your sophomoric post #250, which is an overwhelmingly terse little boy response, you no more can address my post #244 and #248 anymore than you can get out of being sent to the sulfur lakes of Hell upon your earthly demise because of committing the Unpardonable Sin. You did this by calling Jesus' spirit a LIAR to His direct and literal words in John 10:34-36! Remember? You actually had the audacity to say that what Jesus DIRECTLY and LITERALLY stated in said passage, was not what He stated! This is one of your most comical and ungodly responses that you have ever made! LOL!Therefore your performance within this thread is so embarrassing, not only to you, but I am sure the membership as well that is watching you RUNAWAY from debating me on the TRUE modus operandi of the Bible Jesus, the running away from my posts numbers 244 and 248 directed to your biblical ignorance and Bible rewrites, and you blatantly committing, without question, the Unpardonable Sin!RUN TRADESECRET, KEEP RUNNING AWAY BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY THING THAT YOU ARE GOOD AT! LOL!
It is pointless trying to engage with you. So unless you are prepared to respond - say to that post on the Catholic church - dont bother.
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@Tradesecret
Jesus is God. God is a Trinity. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are together the Trinity not any one of them individually. Jesus is also fully man. Yet the Father, who is God is not man. And the Spirit who is God is not man. "in the whole" conveys the OT God as the Triune God.
My word. You just make clap trap up on the hoof, don't you.
So you want me to draw a conclusion without thinking?
You just cannot go there and we all know why. Jesus as Jehovah/ Yahweh is the serial killer that the Brother has been saying he is all along. The Brother has been shown to be correct . And you are now desperately trying to defend the indefensible with blinding bullshite clap trap above..
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@Stephen
Jesus is God. God is a Trinity. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are together the Trinity not any one of them individually. Jesus is also fully man. Yet the Father, who is God is not man. And the Spirit who is God is not man. "in the whole" conveys the OT God as the Triune God.My word. You just make clap trap up on the hoof, don't you.
Now you are not even being original. Obviously this is a game for you. Go and read the documents from the creeds - they agree with me - and they make these statements - well before I was born.
So you want me to draw a conclusion without thinking?You just cannot go there and we all know why. Jesus as Jehovah/ Yahweh is the serial killer that the Brother has been saying he is all along. The Brother has been shown to be correct . And you are now desperately trying to defend the indefensible with blinding bullshite clap trap above..
I have gone there. I just will not play your game. Jesus is God. The OT God is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Son is God. Yet, the Father is not the Son is not the Spirit. I have also made the claim that the OT GOD is a good and holy God. So there is no reason for me to avoid linking Jesus to the OT God save and except I think the answer is more complex than a simple yes or no. The fact that God is more complex than you want him to be - refutes your entire notion that he is some two dimensional made up image of humanity.
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@Tradesecret
Jesus is God. The OT God is God.
So Jesus is the god of the Old Testament, known to many theist as Jehovah/Yahweh? That is a yes or no question.
[the OT ]God is more complex than you want him to be.
He is very complex isn't he? As are all paranoid, narcissistic, schizophrenic megalomaniacs, that kill for the hell of it. Quite the contrast to the turn the other cheek, meek as a lamb "saviour" known to us and the Romans as Jesus the Jew , King of the Jews.
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@Tradesecret
.
Tradesecret, The Debate Runaway, Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, and a Runaway from my posts to him,
YOUR REVEALING QUOTE ONCE AGAIN: "Let me write very slowly for you. I don't want to go to fast just in case you miss what I am saying. Jesus is God. God is a Trinity. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Yet Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are together the Trinity not any one of them individually. Jesus is also fully man. Yet the Father, who is God is not man. And the Spirit who is God is not man. "in the whole" conveys the OT God as the Triune God."
Barring the fact that you cannot "write it slowly" upon a printed page on this forum, which only shows more of your outright ignorance!
So, what you are saying relative to the Trinity Doctrine is simply, there are three divine persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5), therefore Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the other two!
To further the Godly Triune premise in your way of thinking, then the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Ghost is Almighty, but yet there are not three Almighty's but one Almighty. It is plainly seen that we have three Almighty's, and at the same time, one Almighty. You inform us that obviously the three persons in the Trinity are co-eternal together and coequal. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Ghost is eternal, and yet there are not three eternally, but one eternal. The plain English is, that the three entities in the Trinity are three eternally, and individually considered, and yet they are not three eternally, but one eternal!
Therefore, am I correct to your way of thinking above in describing the Triune Doctrine as explicitly shown and in the name of Jesus?
Awaiting a cogent reply, thanks.
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@Tradesecret
@BrotherDThomas
Tradesecret wrote: Jesus is God. The OT God is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Son is God. Yet, the Father is not the Son is not the Spirit. I have also made the claim that the OT GOD is a good and holy God.
Anything you can do the Brother can do better!
BrotherDThomas wrote: So, what you are saying relative to the Trinity Doctrine is simply, there are three divine persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5), therefore Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the other two!To further the Godly Triune premise in your way of thinking, then the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Ghost is Almighty, but yet there are not three Almighty's but one Almighty. It is plainly seen that we have three Almighty's, and at the same time, one Almighty. You inform us that obviously the three persons in the Trinity are co-eternal together and coequal. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Ghost is eternal, and yet there are not three eternally, but one eternal. The plain English is, that the three entities in the Trinity are three eternally, and individually considered, and yet they are not three eternally, but one eternal!
1 Timothy wrote:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5
So Jesus here is not a god according to Timothy, but simply a messenger/mediator. But no doubt Tradesecret will now attempt to rewrite the scripture, redefine words and put words into the mouth of Timothy .........
...........and James
James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
and John
John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
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@Tradesecret
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Tradesecret, The Debate Runaway, Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, and a Runaway from my posts to him,
TRADESECRETS LATEST POST TO RUN AWAY FROM DEBATING ME ABOUT JESUS' TRUE MODUS OPERANDI WITHIN THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE: "It is pointless trying to engage with you. So unless you are prepared to respond - say to that post on the Catholic church - dont bother. "
First thing, you act like you are the only pseudo-christian that I make the Biblical fool! I have other forums that I attend for Jesus as well, understand? Secondly, I have posted to your outright ignorance in the my Catholic thread.
Now, your latest RUNAWAY excuse to not debate me relative to the topic at hand, was embarrassing once again, just like your other excuses. Listen, you obviously have run out of "Big Boy Pants," therefore, if you don't have the money to purchase them, I can send you money to do so, okay? How many EXCUSES can you come up with at your laughable expense within this forum and in front of the membership???! LOL
++++ TRADESECRET, WHAT DIVISION OF CHRISTIANITY DO YOU FOLLOW? BAPTIST, CATHOLIC, JEHOVAH WITNESS, OR?! I'LL AWAIT YOUR ANSWER, THANKS. ++++
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@Stephen
.
Stephen,
YOUR REVEALING AND TRUTHFUL QUOTE: "So Jesus here is not a god according to Timothy, but simply a messenger/mediator. But no doubt Tradesecret will now attempt to rewrite the scripture, redefine words and put words into the mouth of Timothy."
As we have unfortunately seen, the Bible passages shown below are relative to the complete Bible ignorant pseudo-christian Tradesecret. Sad indeed. :(
"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." (2 Timothy 4:3)
"To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Behold, their ears are uncircumcised, they cannot listen; behold, the word of the Lordis to them an object of scorn; they take no pleasure in it." (Jeremiah 6:10)
" For they are a rebellious people, lying children, children unwilling to hear the instruction of the Lord; (Isaiah 30:9)
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@Stephen
Jesus is God. The OT God is God.So Jesus is the god of the Old Testament, known to many theist as Jehovah/Yahweh? That is a yes or no question.[the OT ]God is more complex than you want him to be.He is very complex isn't he? As are all paranoid, narcissistic, schizophrenic megalomaniacs, that kill for the hell of it. Quite the contrast to the turn the other cheek, meek as a lamb "saviour" known to us and the Romans as Jesus the Jew , King of the Jews.
When you want to discuss things civilly then perhaps we can have a go at it. I know you are asking a yes or no question and I am refusing to give one. I know what a leading question is - one where the question asks for either a yes or no. So that you can lead me down a direction that is really a trap that you have set. But I am not being cross examined in court or on this forum. Asking open ended questions are a better way of trying to get information out of someone. Oh yes, the only reason lawyers ask leading questions in a court is because they know the answer in the first place. Lawyers that ask questions they don't know the answer to are bad lawyers.
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@BrotherDThomas
So, what you are saying relative to the Trinity Doctrine is simply, there are three divine persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5), therefore Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the other two!
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
This is the Nicene Creed. It explains it better than I do. Please note the underlined bits.
First, ONE GOD. NOT THREE GODS. ONE GOD in three persons.
The Son is eternally begotten - and the Spirit is a person we worship.
One God three persons. All co-equal. All separate and yet all ONE GOD.
To further the Godly Triune premise in your way of thinking, then the Father is Almighty, the Son is Almighty, and the Holy Ghost is Almighty, but yet there are not three Almighty's but one Almighty. It is plainly seen that we have three Almighty's, and at the same time, one Almighty. You inform us that obviously the three persons in the Trinity are co-eternal together and coequal. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Ghost is eternal, and yet there are not three eternally, but one eternal. The plain English is, that the three entities in the Trinity are three eternally, and individually considered, and yet they are not three eternally, but one eternal!
Therefore, am I correct to your way of thinking above in describing the Triune Doctrine as explicitly shown and in the name of Jesus?Awaiting a cogent reply, thanks.
At least you are attempt to reconcile some of these things thank you. Yet, I am not sure of you logically leap to the conclusion that Jesus is the Trinity. I would not use the name of Jesus to describe the Trinity. Some Christians do. Using the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. LORD referring the the Father, Jesus to the Son and Christ - meaning anointed one - as the Spirit. I however think that is attempting to use a shoehorn to try and fit what was never meant to be fitted into something which is both simple and complex.
God is a concept which is too complex for humanity to understand fully. The Trinity is a doctrine which has caused the best of minds to argue over. Yet the Bible teaches ONE GOD period. Yet it also teaches that the Father is God, that the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God - and yet they not the same. Hence we in accordance with the way best try and understand - ONE GOD, three members or three persons. I would take the view that to say that anyone of these members are the TRINITY in their own right is going just a step to far. Hence why I reject at first blush the notion that Jesus is the Trinity. He is certainly is part of the Trinity - and the Trinity cannot be the Trinity without the Son.
Sometimes I liken the Trinity to the tension between the one and the many that exist in our world. Because I am a lawyer, I like to link things to human rights. One one hand, there exists the individuals right to own guns. On the other hand there is the communities right to be safe. Now in my mind these things do not need to be at odds with each other - but for many people they are. Similarly, the political tension between the individualism of personal rights verses the rights of the whole. This we have seen lots lately with the pandemic. the right not to wear a mask verses the right for the community to be safe. In my mind these tensions don't have to be tensions - they can be resolved.
And the interesting thing - is very often theses rights are - either pragmatically or on a balance resolved to a acceptable level. Not to say that either side does not want more and won't continue to ask for more. But we can live with these rights and the tension without going into a head spin. Is the right of the individual more significant than the community or is the rights of the community more significant than the individual?
The Trinity holds a tension for most along similar lines - the notion of the ONE GOD - verses three members. In the Bible - it always clearly talks about ONE GOD and yet it refers to GOD in each of the three members at various times. It is not a strict Aristotelian / Platonism logical conclusion. It is more of the water logic variety - which incidentally springs not from the West but the East. Yet it works quite well in Asian and Eastern circles - it causes no particular tension in the brain like it does for the West.
Anyway this has been a good discussion - thanks.
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@Stephen
Timothy wrote:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5
Hi Stephen, Thanks for drawing that to my attention. Thank you also for drawing your own conclusions about my intentions. DO you want me to explain it or do you simply want me to read it as it reads, which by the say is perfectly in accord with my theology and Christian theology. One thing this passage is NOT saying is that Jesus is not a god or God. It however is saying there is ONE GOD. Christians take the view that GOD here is the Trinity. Christians also by the way and I know you know this because I have said it many times, Jesus is Fully man. This is one reason why I would never say that Jesus is the Trinity or even the OT God per se.
Christ Jesus was and is a Man. And as a Man he was and is the only one capable of being the mediator between God and Man. Christians do not take the view that Christ as fully God was the mediator. That would be to bring God down. It would be absurd. God cannot die - but man can. Jesus is both fully God and fully Man. This is Christian teaching and what the bible clearly indicates.
So Jesus here is not a god according to Timothy, but simply a messenger/mediator. But no doubt Tradesecret will now attempt to rewrite the scripture, redefine words and put words into the mouth of Timothy .........
No, I just responded in accordance to the teaching I had - about Jesus - not wanting to put him into boxes like you.
...........and JamesJames 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Another great verse. I believe in ONE GOD. And this verse confirms that belief is not restricted to believers.
and JohnJohn 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Another great verse- The gospel story is about GOD and it is also about Jesus. You need to demonstrate that everytime the bible talks about Jesus it is always talking about him as a man and never as GOD. Christians talk about both things. Jesus is Fully GOD as Philippians 2:6 indicates and Jesus is fully man as Timothy relates which you quoted above and I would say also in the verse here as well. You need to remember that Christians do believe that Jesus was fully man - so finding verses which indicate this support them - not hinder them. As I said it is not the verses which confirm he was a man that you should be running to - it is the verses which clearly confirm he is God that you should be focusing on. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word WAS God. He WHO is in nature GOD, humbled himself and became a servant, even a man. (Clearly that verse demonstrates Jesus was something other than a man - the question is what? - the text clearly says God)
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@Tradesecret
Timothy wrote:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5[A] Tradesecret wrote: DO you want me to explain it [Timothy 1 Timothy 2:5] or do you simply want me to read it as it reads, which by the say is perfectly in accord with my theology and Christian theology. One thing this passage is NOT saying is that Jesus is not a god or God. It however is saying there is ONE GOD. Christians take the view that GOD here is the Trinity. Christians also by the way and I know you know this because I have said it many times, Jesus is Fully man. This is one reason why I would never say that Jesus is the Trinity or even the OT God per se.
Just as I predicted above #261
Stephen wrote: "But no doubt Tradesecret will now attempt to rewrite the scripture, redefine words and put words into the mouth of Timothy ............and James....... and John.
Tradesecrete has now at [A] above in quotes- injected into scripture and put words into the mouth of Timothy something that simple isn't there i.e. what the bible doesn't say at all. He wants to discuss what the bible is not saying but wants it to say. This is a perfect example of Tradesecret rewriting scripture.
Christ Jesus was and is a Man. And as a Man he was and is the only one capable of being the mediator between God and Man. Christians do not take the view that Christ as fully God was the mediator. That would be to bring God down. It would be absurd. God cannot die - but man can. Jesus is both fully God and fully Man. This is Christian teaching and what the bible clearly indicates.
Jesus! , you really are in muddle aren't you. Even the wind doesn't change its direction as much as you do.
So Jesus here is not a god according to Timothy, but simply a messenger/mediator. But no doubt Tradesecret will now attempt to rewrite the scripture, redefine words and put words into the mouth of Timothy .........No, I just responded in accordance to the teaching I had - about Jesus - not wanting to put him into boxes like you............and JamesJames 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.Another great verse. I believe in ONE GOD. And this verse confirms that belief is not restricted to believers.and JohnJohn 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Another great verse-
You are all over the place man. You are even now denying what the gospels themselves make perfectly clear. The gospel writers make no mention of Jesus ever being god, NONE AT ALL! as much as you WANT them to. They simply tell of Jesus being a mediator , just as I have been saying all along. All kings of Jerusalem were called "sons of god" because they were the "MEDIATORS" between god an man , it didn't make them gods themselves.
I'll say it again. Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian. He was King of the Jews not King of the Christians. He was a Jewish Rabbi not a Christian Priest. Jesus was a very human rightful heir to the throne of JERUSALEM he was not a god.
I know you are asking a yes or no question and I am refusing to give one.
And we all know why don't we.
Grow up! Facts don't care about your beliefs, your opinions or your feelings.
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@Stephen
Timothy wrote:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5DO you want me to explain it [Timothy 1 Timothy 2:5] or do you simply want me to read it as it reads, which by the say is perfectly in accord with my theology and Christian theology. One thing this passage is NOT saying is that Jesus is not a god or God. It however is saying there is ONE GOD. Christians take the view that GOD here is the Trinity. Christians also by the way and I know you know this because I have said it many times, Jesus is Fully man. This is one reason why I would never say that Jesus is the Trinity or even the OT God per se.Just as I predicted above #261Stephen wrote: "But no doubt Tradesecret will now attempt to rewrite the scripture, redefine words and put words into the mouth of Timothy ............and James....... and John.
Stephen - LOL@ you. What did I inject into the passage? You made the suggestion that Jesus is not God. And that this verse proves that. I indicated I totally agreed with the verse because it is not talking about Jesus as God but as man. I indicated and remain of the view that God here is referring to the Trinity - which in the Christian view includes the Son as the Second member of the Triune God. It does not refer to Jesus as God just as it does not refer to the Father or the Holy Spirit as God. Timothy uses the term God. In Christian understanding this God is the Trinity. And yet when Christians read this passage they are thinking of the Trinity. This verse rather confirms the twin doctrine - of Jesus being fully Man. Even that is an incredible thing to think about. No other man could do this - what was it that so special about him? Not just being a king of Israel - because no other king of Israel could do this? In fact it had to with his priesthood status - in the order of Melchisadek .Still I suppose I don't expect you to understand. you are still ripped because I did not try and make out that this verse is incorrect. It is in fact a wonderful verse and confirms the Christian doctrine.
Tradesecrete has now injected into scripture and put words into the mouth of Timothy something that simple isn't there i.e. what the bible doesn't say at all. He wants to discuss what the bible is not saying but wants it to say. This is a perfect example of Tradesecret rewriting scripture.
I am not injecting anything here at all. You wanted it to say something it did not. You saw the term God and you saw the term Jesus in the same verse and figured you had a gotcha moment. You forgot that Christians teach not only that Jesus is God, but also man. As I have tried to explain and which you just don't want think about is the notion that God is a Trinity. I am happy to work with God being called God or God being understood as the Trinity. It makes no difference to me. Here you so badly wanted to be able to prove Jesus was not God, that you missed the entire point of the verse. Paul points out that Jesus Christ as a man was the perfect mediator. I have not rewritten anything - simply I did not make draw conclusions without thinking - something you have said above you don't want to do.
Christ Jesus was and is a Man. And as a Man he was and is the only one capable of being the mediator between God and Man. Christians do not take the view that Christ as fully God was the mediator. That would be to bring God down. It would be absurd. God cannot die - but man can. Jesus is both fully God and fully Man. This is Christian teaching and what the bible clearly indicates.Jesus! , you really are in muddle aren't you. Even the wind doesn't change its direction as much as you do.
Well no. I am not in a muddle. Obviously by your reply you are. Jesus is Fully God and Jesus is Fully Man. Not half god and half man - fully God and fully Man. I am simply repeating Christian doctrine. You know it - but you want to say that I am doing it. LOL @ your nonsense. Jesus ate food, he cried, he got tired, he slept, all things he did as a man. Christians totally affirm that Jesus is man. Yet we also affirm he is God. Not just a son of God because he was born into the line of David. I notice you have not attempted to justify this reasoning yet. I hope you get around to it. I am genuinely interested in knowing whether every king in the line of David is called the Son of GOD. Of course it does not prove your point even if you prove it - certainly it adds a plank in your argument - I can see that - so far as we forget every thing else in the bible - or write it of as mythology.
So Jesus here is not a god according to Timothy, but simply a messenger/mediator. But no doubt Tradesecret will now attempt to rewrite the scripture, redefine words and put words into the mouth of Timothy .........No, I just responded in accordance to the teaching I had - about Jesus - not wanting to put him into boxes like you............and JamesJames 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.Another great verse. I believe in ONE GOD. And this verse confirms that belief is not restricted to believers.and JohnJohn 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Another great verse-You are all over the place man. You are even now denying what the gospels themselves make perfectly clear. The gospel writers make no mention of Jesus ever being god, NONE AT ALL! as much as you WANT them to. They simply tell of Jesus being a mediator , just as I have been saying all along. All kings of Jerusalem were called "sons of god" because they were the "MEDIATORS" between god an man , it didn't make them gods themselves.I'll say it again. Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian. He was King of the Jews not King of the Christians. He was a Jewish Rabbi not a Christian Priest. Jesus was a very human rightful heir to the throne of JERUSALEM he was not a god. Grow up!
I am not denying the passages and what the gospels say. I really am not. In fact I read these passages in the original Greek. I have investigated many commentaries - and lo and behold - they are in agreement. But not with you. It seems you stand alone. And I think that when one stands alone in the interpretation of the bible, it is a dangerous place to stand. It does not make you wrong of course - Athanasius stood alone and was proved to be right. Yet it is a dangerous place to stand all the same. You dont have to agree with me I can hardly care - but you do need to stop accusing me of telling lies and injecting things into the text when I am not - and the scholars to almost everyone agrees with my interpretation - even if they don't agree with the conclusion that Jesus is God. They still see that the passage is not saying that Jesus is not God. Only that it referring to his humanity in this place.
The gospel writers provide many cases of where Jesus is God. Indeed the Gospel of Mark is all about leading the reader to that conclusion. You are intentionally misreading what the gospels and Jesus says about himself. Jesus was a Jew. I never have had a problem with that. Was he a Christian? Not in the sense that we are. We are Christians because we take his name and follow his teachings which he passed onto the disciples. Was he the king of the Jews? Well Pilate thought so. Is he the king of Christians? Absolutely. He now reigns from heaven. Peter and Paul were both Jews as well and they are also both Christians. The Christian religion is really the continuation of the OT Jewish system. The modern day Jewish system is not even the continuation of the OT system. It is in fact a new cult. It may well refer to the OT and to Moses and David - but this is lip service - their entire system today is nothing like the Old. Was Jesus a Jewish rabbi? Yeah I have no issue with that. Was he a Christian priest? Given that Christian priests are a nonsense in the sense of what you are suggesting. All Christians are priests prophets and kings. We don't a priest anymore because Jesus is our eternal high priest. I agree that Jesus was a rightful heir to the throne in Jerusalem. Nevertheless, being so, does not exclude him from being GOD.
As for growing up. LOL@ you. My views are consistent with traditional Christian doctrine. Yours are the figment of your own imagination. You stand alone - you have no one who agrees with you on this site - let alone in scholarly or biblical academia or networks. Prove me wrong. Give us your sources.
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@Tradesecret
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Tradesecret, The Debate Runaway, Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT,
Why are you throwing in the Nicene Creed that contradicts the Trinity Doctrine?! The Creed states with specificity that Jesus is ONLY THE SON of our serial killer Hebrew God Yahweh! "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father," like the following passage agrees with when Jesus stated: “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46). Get it? Obviously Jesus isn't talking to Himself as the Hebrew God Yahweh in the this passage, so therefore the Nicene Creed and the Matthew 27:46 shows Jesus to be only the Son of Yahweh!
This now turns our understanding of Jesus being Yahweh God upside down! Another passage precluding that Jesus is only the Son of Yahweh: “The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.” (John 5:19) In this passage Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by Yahweh the Father. He is expressing obedience to Yahweh the Father. If Jesus was Yahweh the Father, he wouldn’t be stating this verse in the first place to Himself!
Yet in another passage showing Jesus is ONLY the Son of our Hebrew God Yahweh: “By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.” (John 5:30) Jesus says, "by myself", I can do nothing. This blatantly indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship separately with Yahweh where He is not trying to “please himself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent Him” which is the separate Father! Therefore, Jesus is not Yahweh the Father in this passage!!!!
Now, as if the above passages aren't damaging enough in showing Jesus is NOT God, then we have this one to add: “The Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28) This is another strong statement by Jesus showing that makes a distinction between Himself and Yahweh God, whereas Jesus is now NOT Yahweh in a Triune Doctrine in this passage, but only the son!
Again, how can Jesus be God when He states this: “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only. “ (Matthew 24:36) Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows, of which if Jesus was the Father God of the Trinity, he would already know!
There is always someone that ruins the party, and in this case, YOU TRADESECRET ruin our faith in Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate by bringing forth the Nicene Creed! The hard part now is the fact that if you still want to believe Jesus is our God, then these passages herein CONTRADICT this alleged fact, therefore, how can we base our Christian faith upon CONTRADICTIONS?! Remember this adage? Where there are contradictions, there're falsehoods, where there're falsehoods, there are LIES!
THANKS ALOT IN NOW SHOWING THAT JESUS IS NOT GOD, NOR A PART OF ANY TRIUNE DOCTRINE! FU#*$&#G S+$T!
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@Tradesecret
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Tradesecret, The Debate Runaway, Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT,
I asked you this very simple question in my post #262, therefore AGAIN, I will ask it in your behalf once again.
++++ TRADESECRET, WHAT DIVISION OF CHRISTIANITY DO YOU FOLLOW? BAPTIST, CATHOLIC, JEHOVAH WITNESS, OR?! I'LL AWAIT YOUR ANSWER, THANKS. ++++
Thanking you in advance for a direct answer this time.
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