Quassim Solemani is Dead

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@ILikePie5
killing their general is very provocative. it's a major escalation. i would have did something less provocative. now, they will just get another general. you keep ignoring that iran can just increase its terrorism. they will attack usa interest more. we can do tit for tat like u want to do,, but that just causes more flies to swat. if bees are bothering you, do you attack the queen bee when all the other bees will launch an assault on you, making the problem worse? no, you swat the individual bees who are bothering you. we can't just nuke the hive, or nuke iran, like you stupidly suggested, to stop terrorism. 
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@ILikePie5
They can easily close the strait. You don't need to sit a bunch of ships there standing bravely, flags snapping in the wind. You mine it or resort to asymmetric tactics.

Assuming we sit there, correct. The military isn’t stupid lmao.
You've said that you predict and endorse avoiding a direct confrontation. How do you propose our Navy prevents the mining of the Strait of Hormuz without direct confrontation which would bring Iran's anti-ship missile batteries into play?


All of those destroyers and cruisers will be blown out of the water by maneuverable, small boat suicide attacks, advancing mines, and ship-killing cruise missiles. We've done wargame simulations against Iran in the Persian Gulf. It ended up with most of the carrier group at the bottom of the sea, and 20,000 dead US personnel. It was such a humiliation that they restarted the simulation with handicaps on the Iranian side, and the US officer who led that side resigned in disgust because they were choosing to prioritize making a flattering report to the Pentagon over actually addressing the weaknesses in the US Navy to asymmetric naval warfare. We've been using our carrier groups as floating artillery for so many years that we're completely unequipped for a real naval engagement. Look up Millennium Challenge 2002.
You’re really telling me that the same result that happened in 2002 will happen in 2020? You don’t even know what you’re saying dude. In 18 years the technology has expanded exponentially especially considering we spend drastically higher amounts of money for defense spending. We have bases all over the Middle East and we have ships as well. All fortified over the last two decades while Iranian technology remains the same.Oh and I forgot, we have the nukes too. It would be foolish for them to escalate it.
Lol, you clearly didn't look it up. The war game was meant to demonstrate the superiority of US forces against Iran in a direct engagement, and it was supposed to be all about technological superiority. Van Riper, who commanded the Iranian side, used low-tech tactics like motorcycle couriers, brute force missile attacks, and small boat attacks to outmaneuver the US and completely overwhelm our sensor systems. We didn't adapt our tactics or tech to deal with the tactics he used, we re-ran the war game with a new rules which forbade the Iranian side from using those tactics. That's why Van Riper resigned; because he saw that the flaws in the US Naval defences weren't being fixed.

We're doing the same thing that Russian and Japan did: thinking that because we spend a lot of money on our fleets and are more advanced then another nation, we can just keep using the same tactics forever. They both got their asses handed to them by the Japanese because of their arrogance, regardless of how expensive ships like the Repulse were. It took new tactics and strategy, like the Thatch Weave and improvements in reconnaissance and espionage, for us to cripple the Japanese at Midway. Hint: the Japanese forces at midway were better trained and better equipped than our forces. It was a combination of strategy and tactics which won that pivotal battle for the US. Not technological superiority.
The idea that we would use nukes on Iran is too idiotic to entertain.

Being energy independent does absolutely ZERO to offset a global economic collapse. Also, we aren't energy independent. We import about 9 million barrels of crude a day.
And nations will try to prevent a global economic collapse. That’s what Greyparrot was saying earlier.
You have complete myopia here. I agree with the trade war that Trump is waging against China. Why? Because it hurts them more than it hurts us, and they're our chief rival. We should have done this a long time ago. The same logic applies to the Hormuz. China will be hurt by a global economic crash, but we will be hurt more, as the world's largest consumer market. It will also cause more internal unrest in the US, because the people here will blame the leadership who caused it to happen. In China, the collapse can be used to demonize a warmongering US and unite the people, minimizing internal unrest. Russia will be helped by the closing of the Hormuz because it will cause the price of oil to spike. Those are the three powers that really matter. Russia and China will be happy to watch us sweat it out. The other countries are largely aligned with us, and their course of action will be to pressure US to stop, as they don't have strong diplomatic ties to Iran.


As for energy independent. I suggest you look up the definition first. Energy independence means that we are a net exporter, meaning we have sufficient energy for ourselves. Thanks to Trump btw.
Not all oil is equal. The oil coming out of the gulf is unique, and is especially important for high-tech economies.


Air strikes don't win a war. Iran is extremely mountainous, with notoriously fanatical fighters and arms flowing in from Russian and possible Chinese allies. It would be a nightmare to invade.
You don’t need to invade to win. Just dissolve the enemies’ morale and will to fight. This is all however assuming that Iran escalates, which they know is suicide against the worlds best military.
How did that work in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria? Whew, that morale sure did melt away!

Of course, it didn't. It stiffened. Because, for some crazy reason, bombing people makes them want to fight you.
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@ILikePie5
There's really no response to that as you clearly don't know what either of those words mean. An attack on an embassy is a provocation. A non-escalatory response would be to deploy troops to defend the embassy or launch some strikes on proxy groups. If taking out a key regional political figure with a drone strike isn't an escalatory response then the term has no meaning.

As I mentioned earlier, Iran has been escalating its attacks. It started with the Oil Tankers. Trump didn’t do much. Then Iran shot down a US Military drone. Trump did nothing. Then Iran killed an American contractor and stormed the embassy. If that’s not escalation then I don’t know what is. What Trump did was retaliate, something the Obama Administration couldn’t do.
This isn't escalation, it's the status quo. Escalation means to take a step UP. Iran and we have been engaged in proxy conflicts and skirmishes in the Middle East since before you were born. Neither group has targetted a leader of the other.


But he is Obama who'd destabilize an entire region of the Middle East and waste trillions of dollars because Israel yanked on his leash.
You’re an anti-Semite for not supporting a Jewish State and instead succumbing to the Iranian cries for Death to Israel.
Okay snowflake. You're right, not wanting to watch Americans bleed out in some Middle Eastern shithole for a country that manipulates our elections and spies on us makes me a RACIST.


Tell me one thing. Do you agree that Soleimani should’ve died for what he did?
Dumb question. If you're applying an absolute moral standard, all military leaders deserve to die. Soleimani fought a war. In fighting a war, you invite death. He who lives by the sword, you know the rest of the story. Assassination is never about justice, it's about results. The results here are bad, so it shouldn't have been done.

I'll shoot it right back at you: objectively, who deserves to die more? Mohammad bin Salman, or Qasem Soleimani? I'd say as far as atrocities committed, Salman takes the cake and then some. But he's our ally and Soleimani is dead. There's no justice in the world, kid. Just conflicting interests and a lot of blood.

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@ILikePie5
BTW, we're contemplating wasting trillions on this, but still no wall. Still no infrastructure bill. Still no mandatory e-verify.
The wall is being built as we speak. Infrastructure bill is Congress and E Verify is Congress. Guess the problem lies with Congress. Wait not Congress as a whole, Democrats who were wanting to impeach him since Day 1. 
Wall is being reinforced where it exists, not necessarily being built in areas where it does not. Mostly upgraded from anti-vehicle fencing. Trump had a Republican House and Senate for two years. Why no wall? Why no e-verify? Why no infrastructure? Thing is, the game was rigged from the start. They don't care about you, or your wages, or your community, or your family. They care about getting their backs patted at AIPAC's next shindig and getting buckets full of money from the oligarchs who benefit from cheap labor. They spend trillions on foreign wars but scream bloody murder about spending a few billion on a wall to defend our own borders. In their mind, the military budget exists to defend the interests of a small, wealthy country in the Levant, not to defend the territorial integrity of the United States.
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@n8nrgmi
killing their general is very provocative. it's a major escalation. i would have did something less provocative. now, they will just get another general. you keep ignoring that iran can just increase its terrorism. they will attack usa interest more. we can do tit for tat like u want to do,, but that just causes more flies to swat. if bees are bothering you, do you attack the queen bee when all the other bees will launch an assault on you, making the problem worse? no, you swat the individual bees who are bothering you. we can't just nuke the hive, or nuke iran, like you stupidly suggested, to stop terrorism. 

Ok, what is “less provocative?” What should Trump have done that would deter Iran from attacking us? You have yet to define what terrorism means. Are you talking about attacks here in the U.S.? Because if it’s traced back to Iran it’s war. If you’re talking about terrorism in the Middle East, then good luck to whoever’s trying to assault a US military base. Expect full scale retaliation.
ILikePie5
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@ResurgetExFavilla
You've said that you predict and endorse avoiding a direct confrontation. How do you propose our Navy prevents the mining of the Strait of Hormuz without direct confrontation which would bring Iran's anti-ship missile batteries into play?

Well if they choose to do it, it infuriates pretty much the rest of the world so there’s WWIII. My course of action would be to bomb Iranian military assets close to the shore through the use of Stealth Bombers and Fighter Jets. Destroy their anti ship missile batteries to reduce the risk of a hit (which is already low with superior American technology). Smooth sailing from there especially with our allies.

Lol, you clearly didn't look it up. The war game was meant to demonstrate the superiority of US forces against Iran in a direct engagement, and it was supposed to be all about technological superiority. Van Riper, who commanded the Iranian side, used low-tech tactics like motorcycle couriers, brute force missile attacks, and small boat attacks to outmaneuver the US and completely overwhelm our sensor systems. We didn't adapt our tactics or tech to deal with the tactics he used, we re-ran the war game with a new rules which forbade the Iranian side from using those tactics. That's why Van Riper resigned; because he saw that the flaws in the US Naval defences weren't being fixed.
In 2002. It’s 2020. Recently an Admiral said that it would be a matter of days before the Strait would be reopened if Iran chose to close it off and initiate hostilities.

We're doing the same thing that Russian and Japan did: thinking that because we spend a lot of money on our fleets and are more advanced then another nation, we can just keep using the same tactics forever. They both got their asses handed to them by the Japanese because of their arrogance, regardless of how expensive ships like the Repulse were. It took new tactics and strategy, like the Thatch Weave and improvements in reconnaissance and espionage, for us to cripple the Japanese at Midway. Hint: the Japanese forces at midway were better trained and better equipped than our forces. It was a combination of strategy and tactics which won that pivotal battle for the US. Not technological superiority.
The idea that we would use nukes on Iran is too idiotic to entertain.
And how did we defeat the Japanese? Nukes. Something the Iranians don’t have. Midway is an example of luck. The Japanese Fleet was destroyed because of the desire of Yamamoto to rearm and refuel his fighters for an attack against the US Carriers after a wave of American fighters were destroyed. Little did they know that there were 2 waves launched but the second wave got lost and they came at the time when the ships were sitting ducks. Luck explained Midway. I think Japanese Reconaissance also spotted the carriers but misreported it. Same thing at Pearl Harbor. We got lucky that the carriers weren’t in port. But back to the nukes, it’s a last resort scenario similar to the Japanese. After all of their assets are destroyed and they still refuse to surrender, and the lose of American life is too high to ascertain, that option opens.

You have complete myopia here. I agree with the trade war that Trump is waging against China. Why? Because it hurts them more than it hurts us, and they're our chief rival. We should have done this a long time ago. The same logic applies to the Hormuz. China will be hurt by a global economic crash, but we will be hurt more, as the world's largest consumer market. It will also cause more internal unrest in the US, because the people here will blame the leadership who caused it to happen. In China, the collapse can be used to demonize a warmongering US and unite the people, minimizing internal unrest. Russia will be helped by the closing of the Hormuz because it will cause the price of oil to spike. Those are the three powers that really matter. Russia and China will be happy to watch us sweat it out. The other countries are largely aligned with us, and their course of action will be to pressure US to stop, as they don't have strong diplomatic ties to Iran.
Glad we agree on the trade war. We will hurt until the Strait is reopened, which with superior American technology and allied assets will be reopened in a matter of days per an Admiral. The Iranians will have to be the ones to remove the mines, if they refuse to, it’s fair game for national security interests. The other countries will want Iran to remove their mines. If that’s through negotiation, so be it. It’s in the benefit of the US anyways.

How did that work in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria? Whew, that morale sure did melt away!

Of course, it didn't. It stiffened. Because, for some crazy reason, bombing people makes them want to fight you.
Vietnam - we couldn’t close the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria - All mistakes in my opinion. They were to fight terrorism not a sovereign nation anyways (except Iraq)

Difference here is the sovereignty of Iraq and the people which hate the government. Ho Chi Minh was loved by the people. With Iraq, we left allowing ISIS to form causing us to go back. Syria, Obama refused to enforce the red line he created. In any case, the Ayatollah is hated by the people of Iran. An attempt to remove him is popular.
ILikePie5
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@ResurgetExFavilla
This isn't escalation, it's the status quo. Escalation means to take a step UP. Iran and we have been engaged in proxy conflicts and skirmishes in the Middle East since before you were born. Neither group has targetted a leader of the other.

So in your opinion, we just let it happen? What’s the alternative to killing Soleimani in your opinion? What should Trump have done?

Okay snowflake. You're right, not wanting to watch Americans bleed out in some Middle Eastern shithole for a country that manipulates our elections and spies on us makes me a RACIST.
WWIII isn’t going to happen bro. No one wants war. Peace through strength.

Dumb question. If you're applying an absolute moral standard, all military leaders deserve to die. Soleimani fought a war. In fighting a war, you invite death. He who lives by the sword, you know the rest of the story. Assassination is never about justice, it's about results. The results here are bad, so it shouldn't have been done.

I'll shoot it right back at you: objectively, who deserves to die more? Mohammad bin Salman, or Qasem Soleimani? I'd say as far as atrocities committed, Salman takes the cake and then some. But he's our ally and Soleimani is dead. There's no justice in the world, kid. Just conflicting interests and a lot of blood.
It’s a simple yes or no question. Answer should be yes considering he’s killed hundreds of American and wounded thousands. The results are simple. Will Iran risk a war with the most powerful military in the world? I’d wager against it. Trump thrives on unpredictability which is an asset now since he basically called the Iranians bluff.

In an objective manner, yes I’d take Salman. But this subjective and with regards to the USA where Soleimani is much much worse. 
ILikePie5
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@ResurgetExFavilla

Mostly upgraded from anti-vehicle fencing. Trump had a Republican House and Senate for two years. Why no wall? Why no e-verify? Why no infrastructure? Thing is, the game was rigged from the start. They don't care about you, or your wages, or your community, or your family. They care about getting their backs patted at AIPAC's next shindig and getting buckets full of money from the oligarchs who benefit from cheap labor. They spend trillions on foreign wars but scream bloody murder about spending a few billion on a wall to defend our own borders. In their mind, the military budget exists to defend the interests of a small, wealthy country in the Levant, not to defend the territorial integrity of the United States.

Answer is pretty simple. Democratic filibusters in the Senate without which no budget bill can be passed, nor any other legislation can pass. Demand that the liberals stop obstructing cause that’s all they’ve been doing since Day 1: obstruct and impeach. 

As for Israel, I support a Jewish State, pretty simple. I’m assuming you don’t ?
Vader
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Man people are soft. Why this be reported
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@Stephen
I mean there is no way of knowing for sure what it was and my best guess it was for that, but this isn't detrimental or a bad move. We killed a terrorist
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Trump you friggin moron. If the Iraqis want you to withdraw troops and ambassadorial presence then just do it. It's their loss in the long run. Don't turn the entire world against us. America is not Russia or China.
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@Vader
I mean there is no way of knowing for sure what it [ reasons for the killing] was 

 I have said words to that effect.



We killed a terrorist

I said that also.



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@Swagnarok
If the Iraqis want you to withdraw troops and ambassadorial presence then just do it. It's their loss in the long run. Don't turn the entire world against us. America is not Russia or China.

I agree they should be left now then to the ravages of the Muslim fanatics ISIS, who are supported Islamic State Of Iran with arms and money and who with the help of American drove out of the country just a matter a month ago. I agree, it will be" their loss"

It has to be recognised though that the Sunni and Kurd members of Parliament didn't vote on the expulsion of US troops and this "non binding" resolution was only supported by Shiite parties (no surprises there then). Indeed it has been said that the Sunni and Kurd members of Parliament were "concerned and worried" about the proposed expulsion.
   It also has to be seriously understood that   'General'  Qassem Soleimani was head of the terrorist wing of the Islamic State of Iran's Revolutionary Guard.
disgusted
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Yanks kill millions of innocent men, women and children and call others terrorists. Pathetic.
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@ILikePie5
I think the Trump kiddies need to hide somewhere very deep underground.
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@disgusted
Yanks kill millions of innocent men, women and children and call others terrorists. Pathetic.
You just want us to sit on our feet and do nothing huh

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@ILikePie5
You just want us to sit on our feet and do nothing huh
If the choices are do nothing or get dragged into yet another war in the middle east, then YES!!!!. Doing nothing is, by a massive margin, the better option. But I reject those as the only options. There were lots of options available. The trump administration just really wants to attack Iran. 

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The trump administration just really wants to attack Iran.

too overly simplistic and I don't think accurate.  Why would he want to attack Iran?  I could agree that this was a message or warning.  I could agree that it really was done to protect U.S. lives etc.  But not that he simply just wanted to attack Iran.

(ever watch The Blacklist?)
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too overly simplistic and I don't think accurate.  Why would he want to attack Iran?
There is a trump tweet for everything. Here is trump explaining why he wants to attack Iran. 

I could agree that this was a message or warning.  I could agree that it really was done to protect U.S. lives etc.  But not that he simply just wanted to attack Iran.
He tore up a peace agreement. He ramped up sanctions killing countless Iranians as they can't get food or medicine. He torpedoed any attempt to reign in the selling of weapons to Saudis (that the saudi's then used to bomb civilians allied with Iran). He ordered an attack on an iranian base which he only called off at the last second. He murdered an Iranian general who was on a diplomatic mission. Basically, every single action trump has taken towards Iran since becoming president has escalated tensions and made war more likely. 

(ever watch The Blacklist?)
no
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@HistoryBuff
so you think there could be peace with Iran?
Do you think we should deliver them pallets of cash, lift sanctions and let them do what they want?

Things have been escalating for a very long time, under many presidents.

Do you turn the other cheek with a bully?
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so you think there could be peace with Iran?
Of course there can. Although with Trump betraying them it is much harder now. They will likely have a very hard time ever trusting america to keep it's word. 

Do you think we should deliver them pallets of cash, lift sanctions and let them do what they want?
If by deliver pallets of cash you mean "return money america stole from them". Then yes. Lift sanctions, yeah that is going to be a requirement. Let them do whatever they want? no. That is what agreements are for. If trump hadn't torn it up, we would have one of those. 

 Things have been escalating for a very long time, under many presidents.
That's true. But under Obama things started to get better. Then trump tore up the agreement and started trying to kick Iran around again. 

Do you turn the other cheek with a bully?
In this scenario, America is the bully. They are the ones putting in sanctions, murdering generals etc. after having already agreed to a treaty then almost immediately torching it. Iran lived up to their side, america didn't. 
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@HistoryBuff
But under Obama things started to get better.
better how?  worse how?  what exactly has been different in the past 3 years?
 Iran lived up to their side, america didn't. 

looks like the major sanction started in 95, but tell me again who is putting on sanctions?

UN reports increasing violations of Iran nuclear deal


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@TheDredPriateRoberts
better how?  worse how?  what exactly has been different in the past 3 years?
Diplomatic relations had been opened. They agreed to suspend working on nuclear weapons. Now there is no diplomacy even possible. They have resumed working on their nuclear weapons. And they are almost certainly going to carry out attacks on americans in the coming weeks. And as of this moment, the US government has provided no evidence iran has had any part in any attacks on americans lately. 

looks like the major sanction started in 95, but tell me again who is putting on sanctions?
Obama had reached an agreement with them. Sanctions were beginning to ease when trump burned that agreement to the ground and slapped new sanctions on them. So the answer is trump is putting on sanctions. 

UN reports increasing violations of Iran nuclear deal
lol you don't say? You mean the Iranians started doing minor violations of a treaty america broke months ago? Those bastards!!!! how dare they not strictly adhere to a treaty america has already completely broken. And not only broken, but extorted others into breaking it too. 
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Wait, I thought this was a U.N. thing?  Only the U.S. had this nuclear deal with Iran and only the U.S. is responsible for keeping track and enforcement?   If that's the case then I'm glad we pulled out, we don't need to be the world's sheriff.

weren't some of the sanctions because of human rights abuses and terrorism?

are their human rights to a level where they should no longer be sanctioned for them?
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Wait, I thought this was a U.N. thing?  Only the U.S. had this nuclear deal with Iran and only the U.S. is responsible for keeping track and enforcement?   If that's the case then I'm glad we pulled out, we don't need to be the world's sheriff.
It was an agreement between United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, France, and China, Germany and the European Union with Iran. The US was not responsible for enforcement. Trump decided he didn't like the treaty and torched it by putting sanctions back on. The US also announced they would put sanctions on any company that did business with Iran, thus making it impossible for the other countries to really continue because European companies would get hit by sanctions. So basically, Trump ruined it for everyone.

weren't some of the sanctions because of human rights abuses and terrorism?
yes. But as america should have learned a long time ago, you cannot use violence alone to get what you want. Sanctions are fine, but then you have to actually use diplomacy. Trump just burned the attempts at diplomacy and ramped up more violence. 

are their human rights to a level where they should no longer be sanctioned for them?
I don't think anyone said that all sanctions would be dropped, they would be eased. That is the point of diplomacy, it is a give and take. Trump just wants to extort countries into doing what he tells them. And when they refuse, he resorts to extortion and violence. 

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If the choices are do nothing or get dragged into yet another war in the middle east, then YES!!!!. Doing nothing is, by a massive margin, the better option. But I reject those as the only options. There were lots of options available. The trump administration just really wants to attack Iran. 

So you’re ok with a few Americans dying and attacks on American soil? Wow, that’s that’s just crazy
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@HistoryBuff
Of course there can. Although with Trump betraying them it is much harder now. They will likely have a very hard time ever trusting america to keep it's word. 

If you think the Iranians are trustworthy you’re smoking something. With the money we gave them back, they spent it on proxies which killed American soldiers. What makes you think that they’re following the deal at all lmao. Iran is a very large place my friend.
ILikePie5
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@HistoryBuff
I don't think anyone said that all sanctions would be dropped, they would be eased. That is the point of diplomacy, it is a give and take. Trump just wants to extort countries into doing what he tells them. And when they refuse, he resorts to extortion and violence. 

Ya ease the sanctions so they get more money coming in and more money to fund their proxies which kill our troops. You have no idea how illogical you’re being right now. Iran isn’t going to stop till they destroy us and Israel. It’s the way it’s been for decades. Giving money doesn’t do shit. You have to show strength.
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@ILikePie5
You're OK with the USA killing millions of innocents and calling others terrorists? That's American sickness writ large.

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@ILikePie5
Imagine if Lincoln lifted the Naval blockade on the south to get them to "stop fighting"...