Trump's Impeachment may actually fuck Elizabeth Warren the most

Author: Imabench

Posts

Total: 154
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
That's silly. De Facto there is no trial as Pelosi chooses to hold the Articles.

Pelosi is worried about the witnesses that "might" be called that were barred in the House kangaroo court. Ciaramella, Biden, Schiff, and his staff.

Republicans win either way as polling of independents in swing states shows Trump already winning 2020 and the House is already lost.

Pelosi is just trying to save her own ass by catering to the abusive rabid radical left-wing, and she really doesn't care about losing the House, as long as she and California retains top leadership control of the Dems in the House.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
That's silly. De Facto there is no trial as Pelosi chooses to hold the Articles.
That's the point. If the republicans are going to refuse to allow any evidence and just immediately push to say "nothing to see here" then why send them the articles?

Pelosi is worried about the witnesses that "might" be called that were barred in the House kangaroo court.
What does that even mean? It is McConnell blocking witnesses from being called. The Dems want witnesses to be called. 

Republicans win either way as polling of independents in swing states shows Trump already winning 2020 and the House is already lost.
unless you have some facts to back that up, I am just going to ignore it as a delusional fantasy. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
At the end of the day, McConnell is just going to allow Pelosi to destroy herself.

Once a Congress adjourns, at the end of its two-year cycle, all bills that have been introduced in either the House or the Senate that have not made it through the entire legislative process and signed into law are dead. This includes bills that may have passed both the House and the Senate but were never finalized and sent to the President for his signature; bills that passed one house (either the House or Senate) but not the other; bills that were the subject of committee or subcommittee hearings but were never considered by either house; and bills that never got more action after being introduced.

Pelosi has one year, and McConnell can wait.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
At the end of the day, McConnell is just going to allow Pelosi to destroy herself.
What? It's like you aren't even responding to me at all any more.


Pelosi has one year, and McConnell can wait.
Again, What? are you even trying to make sense?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
One nice thing about this faux impeachment is that the investment markets are soaring as the crooked crony politicians in D.C Congress lose their stranglehold.

Millions of people fleeing socialist crony blue states like Cali, New York, Illinois, and taking their capital with them. Trump is enacting the economic policies that accelerate this migration. Economy outlook never looked so good for the average working Joe.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
One nice thing about this faux impeachment is that the investment markets are soaring as the crooked crony politicians in D.C Congress lose their stranglehold.
I feel like you have just completely stopped trying to actually make any sense. The investment markets don't give a shit about political infighting unless it directly involves them. And Trump very much is a crooked crony politician. So your point is kind of invalid on the face of it. 

Millions of people fleeing socialist crony blue states like Cali, New York, Illinois, and taking their capital with them.
So states are doing really well, causing costs of living to rise. People then move to cheaper states. And you feel this is somehow evidence of a problem with socialism? 

rump is enacting the economic policies that accelerate this migration. Economy outlook never looked so good for the average working Joe.
Trump's trade wars are making things worse for many people. The economy is doing well in spite of him, not because of him. I mean really, what policies do you think he has enacted that are causing things to get better?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Trump's trade wars are making things worse for many people. The economy is doing well in spite of him, not because of him. I mean really, what policies do you think he has enacted that are causing things to get better?


HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
This is not a response, in any way, to what I said. You showed an example where china is reducing tariffs on 1 specific item because they also had issues with swine flue. 

I said that Trump's trade policies were hurting Americans, which they are. Whether or not they are also hurting Chinese people is not relevant to my point.  Do you really think hurting chinese workers by hurting american workers is a positive step for america?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
A good point was made that Pelosi is committing a quid pro quo trying to influence the outcome of the Senate handling of the impeachment by withholding the articles. Whatevs lol. McConnel is more than happy to see impeachment die when the clock runs out in a year.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Whether or not they are also hurting Chinese people is not relevant to my point.

It should be because Trump is in a position to get historic trade concessions from China which will help all Americans.

Trump's tariffs are clearly and without a shred of doubt causing far more harm to the Chinese economy than America's. The minuscule effects of the tariffs on the American economy are worth reversing the maddening drain of capital, intellectual property, and jobs to China which has gone unabated for the last 50 years.

Are you under the delusion that China cares at all about the average America worker?
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
A good point was made that Pelosi is committing a quid pro quo trying to influence the outcome of the Senate handling of the impeachment by withholding the articles. 
Jesus, how many times do I have to explain what quid pro quo means. It is not a crime. If you have ever bought anything, traded anything etc you have engaged in a quid pro quo. It literally just means "this for that". The obsession with saying the words quid pro quo is a right wing talking point.

The reason trump committed a crime is because he was trading things using his elected office (military aid and a white house visit) in order to gain something of personal value (slander against a political rival). Pelosi using the articles as leverage to get a fair trial in the senate may be a quid pro quo, but it is in no way criminal or abusing her power. 

McConnel is more than happy to see impeachment die when the clock runs out in a year.
He has already said that he wants to prevent a fair trial from occurring. He is desperate to avoid witnesses or evidence being brought forward. I'm sure he would be happy to make the whole thing go away. He isn't going to get what he wants though. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
The reason trump committed a crime is because he was trading things using his elected office (military aid and a white house visit) in order to gain something of personal value (slander against a political rival). Pelosi using the articles as leverage to get a fair trial in the senate may be a quid pro quo, but it is in no way criminal or abusing her power. 

Pelosi provided no evidence aid was withheld, or that Ukraine thought aid was being withheld. Schiff, Ciaramella, and Schiff's staff claimed to have evidence and never provided it. The Senate WILL call those people up to testify.

Biden will be called up to explain why investigating him was a thing of value to Trump.

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Pelosi provided no evidence aid was withheld,
What? We know aid was withheld. No one denies that. 

or that Ukraine thought aid was being withheld. 
We have multiple witnesses who confirmed the Ukranians were told. 

Schiff, Ciaramella, and Schiff's staff claimed to have evidence and never provided it.
What? People testified, under oath, in front of congressional committees. 

The Senate WILL call those people up to testify.
What fantasy world are you living in? The republicans are fighting hard to prevent witnesses from testifying in the senate. The democrats are trying to force them to actually call witnesses and listen to evidence. They want to just rubber stamp a not guilty verdict because they are terrified of an actual trial. 

Biden will be called up to explain why investigating him was a thing of value to Trump.
What does that even mean? It is a thing of value because he is a likely nominee to run against trump in the next election. Slandering him by suggesting he is corrupt would help trump steal the election. We already know that. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
What does that even mean? It is a thing of value because he is a likely nominee to run against trump in the next election. Slandering him by suggesting he is corrupt would help trump steal the election. We already know that. 

It's only a thing of value if Biden was corrupt. Trump didn't ask Ukraine to make shit up, as Schiff read off in his parody version. We have the transcript, he asked for an investigation which would only be a thing of value to Trump if Biden were corrupt.

You don't still believe that there is value in presuming guilt before an investigation in America, do you? Trump's success over the last 3 years of Democrats assuming guilty until proven innocent proves there is no value in that.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
It's only a thing of value if Biden was corrupt. Trump didn't ask Ukraine to make shit up, as Schiff read off in his parody version. We have the transcript, he asked for an investigation which would only be a thing of value to Trump if Biden were corrupt.
That might be true if there had only ever been 1 conversation. But we already know that other people were talking to the ukranians too. The Ukranians were told they needed to make a public announcement that they were investigating Biden. That announcement was even scheduled. The only reason it didn't happen is because the whistle blower report became public. That announcement was the slander Trump was looking for. Just enough to credibly paint Biden as corrupt without any chance of a real investigation being done and clearing him. And it almost worked. 

You don't still believe that there is value in presuming guilt before an investigation in America, do you?
 I'm not sure what you are referring to. We know trump had a call with Ukraine where he asked them to investigate his political rival. We know that 90 minutes later the order to withhold the aid was made. We know people told the ukranians they needed to publicly announce an investigation of biden. We know they scheduled the announcement. The whistle blower report became public and the announcement was cancelled and the white house released the aid. 

The investigation has been done. We know what trump did. He abused the power of this office to smear his political rival. 

Trump's success over the last 3 years of Democrats assuming guilty until proven innocent proves there is no value in that.
Trump has committed numerous crimes in office. I have detailed some of them for you on multiple occasions. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
 I'm not sure what you are referring to. 

The fact that you think opening an investigation into an innocent person is a thing of value to Trump.

That is clearly placing value in the idea of presuming guilt before innocence. Something the rabid left has embraced for 3 years.


There is no crime listed in the articles of impeachment, it's such an obvious partisan shitshow.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
The fact that you think opening an investigation into an innocent person is a thing of value to Trump.
Of course it is. It honestly wouldn't matter to trump if Biden is guilty or not. The appearance of corruption would be enough to help trump win. Then he could campaign about how he is "fighting corruption" when he is, by far, the more corrupt candidate. 

That is clearly placing value in the idea of presuming guilt before innocence. Something the rabid left has embraced for 3 years.
What exactly am I presuming? I have already laid out exactly what we know and why it proves trump abused his power. All you keep doing is throwing out talking points without actually responding to what I say. 

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Of course it is.
Meanwhile, the 3 years of presuming Trump's guilt was of zero value to the rabid left.

bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@HistoryBuff
That;s a bit like saying if I don't buy gas for my car I have more money. But then you can't get to work to make more money. In the short term that might have some positive side effects. But you are going to push the economy into recession and ultimately screw over everyone. 


Well it would depend on the type of immigrant you accept. Are they one that is just menial, cheap labor that will take welfare checks? If so, we would benefit from not taking them. If they are an entrepreneur that makes new jobs, then we would benefit from accepting them.

Oh, so people should just come to america, live and in poverty and squalor because you don't think they should get to eat or have some place to live. America is a nation of immigrants. You are almost certainly descended from immigrants. I will never understand why some people continue to see immigrants as a threat or burden. 

So, you think that people should be allowed to come here and freeload off of social programs that they haven't even paid into? The whole reason people have a right to social security is because they paid into it their whole career. But, someone who has been here a year gets to take thousands in benefits and use those resources that they haven't earned?

Let me ask you this: why on earth would you accept someone into the country who you believed would just live on social programs within five years of entering the country? Is that good for your average American who will have to pay more in taxes to subsidize that? Do you simply want new voters?

I am a descendant from immigrants. But guess what? They didn't have an enormous social safety net when they came to America. They worked to earn a living without freeloading off of a system they in no way helped fund. I'm pretty sure Canada does this with their healthcare system, so I don't know why it is so controversial. 

I never denied it was a factor. But it is a small one. Immigrants don't decide what labor is worth, billionaires do. So blaming them while not targeting the oligarchs causing the problem is ridiculous. 

But the job goes to the lowest bidder, and they overall are willing to accept less. Billionaires can afford to keep wages low by importing low-skill workers who don't care if they are underpaid since it is better than their home country.

Pompeo isn't any better. Trump has filled his cabinet with people who are desperate to start some new wars. Trump himself has admitted he was minutes away from starting a war with Iran before calling it off last minute. 

Yeah, a lot of his picks are crappy. Had he started a war with Iran, his entire base, myself included, would have abandoned him and he knew it. He won on the platform of taking us out of foreign conflicts. Nobody wants to go to war with another Middle Eastern country except for people who could profit from it.

America's tax rates have been falling for decades. There are definitely problems of money being misspent. But the rich have systematically undermined america's tax system. They have lobbied hard to avoid paying taxes and it has been working. That is also a very large factor in america's budget problems. 

Completely agree.

HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Meanwhile, the 3 years of presuming Trump's guilt was of zero value to the rabid left.
Lol I wrote out a detailed reply to you. you responded to only 4 words and ignored the rest of what I said. You are making it pointless to talk to you. 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
Completely agree.

Flat Tax. Eliminate crony tax exemptions.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@HistoryBuff
Are you honestly trying to make a case that the presuming guilt before innocence as the Meuller report did was a thing of value to the rabid left? Not even CNN is willing to regurgitate that talking point today.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@Greyparrot
Flat Tax. Eliminate crony tax exemptions.

That is my position precisely. He is against the flat tax portion of that, but that is as close as we will get lol.
HistoryBuff
HistoryBuff's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,222
3
3
3
HistoryBuff's avatar
HistoryBuff
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Are you honestly trying to make a case that the presuming guilt before innocence as the Meuller report did was a thing of value to the rabid left? Not even CNN is willing to regurgitate that talking point today.
Ok I give up. You are responding to nothing I am actually saying today. All you are doing is talking past me so that you can try to wedge in your talking points without actually listening to anything i say. 


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@bmdrocks21
In a system where people are assumed innocent until proven guilty with evidence, the only way an investigation into Biden could have been a thing of value to Trump would be if that investigation uncovered evidence of guilt.
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
Even that would not make them right.

Is Biden free from investigation because he is a candidate?

When the Obama administration investigated the Trump campaign, was that also a crime? Would his girl Hillery have benefitted from a guilty Trump?
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@Greyparrot
You see, there is the problem. As we have seen with the Kavanaugh shenanigans, they assume people to be guilty until proven innocent.

They must have thought we were calling him guilty. Silly Democrats......
Christen
Christen's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 332
1
4
7
Christen's avatar
Christen
1
4
7
-->
@bmdrocks21
But the job goes to the lowest bidder, and they overall are willing to accept less. Billionaires can afford to keep wages low by importing low-skill workers who don't care if they are underpaid since it is better than their home country.
I often hear people like Bernie Sanders complain about how the federal minimum wage needs to be raised to 15 dollars an hour due to it not being a livable wage, but if immigrants are able to come here (legally or illegally) and accept jobs that pay far lower than 15 dollars an hour, then wouldn't that mean that the minimum wage that is lower than 15 dollars an hour is already livable? Or is it somehow only livable for immigrants and not for American citizens?

dustryder
dustryder's avatar
Debates: 5
Posts: 1,080
3
2
4
dustryder's avatar
dustryder
3
2
4
-->
@Christen
A living wage is a minimum amount of income needed to provide a worker with basic necessities, such that they can live a basic life without government subsidies. It does not literally mean "I need x income or I cannot survive" which would be a subsistence wage. The idea is to lift people out of the feedback loop of poverty.

Apart from this, there have you considered that a living wage is typically calculated based upon a 40? hour work week. However it is likely that a person who is earning a poverty wage must work more than that (which of course negatively impacts their life and is a part of the feedback loop).

You can read more about Bernie's position here





Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 26,006
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@ethang5
Even that would not make them right.

Is Biden free from investigation because he is a candidate?

When the Obama administration investigated the Trump campaign, was that also a crime? Would his girl Hillery have benefitted from a guilty Trump?
There's no crime starting an investigation into Trump of course. The actual crimes only happened when the FBI abused their authority by withholding evidence from the FISA courts.