One Of The Most Enigmatic Verse In All Christianity

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#31

Stephen

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Stephen

12.27.2019 07:15AM

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12.27.2019 07:15AM

Yes, So what? YOURS totally relies on faith without question and not fact. On miracles without proof. And the belief in something that has never been proven or repeated.
Once again, your belief is irrelevant.

I have said that already:

Stephen wrote: I don't need you to accept anything . You don't have to accept what I have wrote OR what I believe for you to answer questions concerning the scriptures, do you?

Your questions are tantamount to "having me prove you wrong"

No it's not. Because as you say above and , what I "believe is irrelevant", especial to any and all theists. You are all very good at that. Those questions are genuine questions that you simply cannot answer. That now is clearly evident. Those unanswered questions concerning this whole of the enigmatic and ambiguous tale prove me right, even if you don't answer them. And again, you don't have to believe what I believe do you.

So I'm not going to do you any favors .......rather than your providing proof and/or substance to the affirmation of your claim.

I find it amazing that you are asking me to provide proof and substance to for what I believe whilst totally ignoring that your whole religious belief system is totally faith based without evidence or facts or substance. I have asked you some simple question concerning the scripture - I have not asked you about your faith in them. I have said above already that, I don't care. If I had simply started another thread before and independent of this one, with these very questions, you still wouldn't answer them. You cannot answer them and I can accept that.

And I'm not "ducking" reasonable questions concerning [my] own scriptures." I'm "ducking" your attempt to defer your onus and place it on me.

Ducking is exactly what you are doing. Your'e problem here is that while your struggling to respond my questions with filibustering and protests of why you won't be answering my questions, you have became so fixated on "raising " the dead. My question is all about "dying".

This is my first and initial question at post one (1)

"SO, The question of course has to be why would two fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said, had been dead, for "four days"!!!! (yes I know)" .https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?

You will notice that there isn't a single reference in that question to being "raised" from the dead. The question was all to do with why they seemingly wanting to "die"? Remember what I said about the "dead". Remember which biblical stories I quoted that explains what the "dead are". And if not for me, try to work out and answer for yourself why it was that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus himself.

You asked this earlier:

Thomas was an apostle. So by your description, he was already "raised from the dead." Why would he then suggest that they "die" only to be "raised"again?

It was a good and fare question, you ignored my reply.

What did Lazarus die of?

What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?

I asked you:

How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ? You avoided it.

You haven't haven't told me why YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead? You avoided it.

I asked you:

Why would these priests want Lazarus dead? You avoided it.

I asked you:

Tell me how can the dead bury the dead? You avoided it.

I asked you:

How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead? You avoided it.

I asked you:

Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die? You avoided it.

I asked you:

Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!????You avoided it.

I asked you:

Did they die? You avoided it.

I asked you:

Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"? You avoided it.

I asked you:

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal

death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3. You avoided it.

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#32

Stephen

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Stephen

12.27.2019 07:42AM

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@Mopac

Thomas is refering to the fact that they are going to Judea, where they want to kill Jesus. Lazarus is in Judea.

John 11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany...

Which is said to be over 2 miles from Jerusalem the east of Jerusalem.

John 11; 17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 18 Now Bethany was near Jerusalem...

Yet it was. In fact it is said to be over 2 miles from Jerusalem the east of Jerusalem.

18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:

So actually, yes, context does clear this up.

No it does not.

What did Lazarus die of?

What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?

How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?

Why do YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?

Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?

Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?

How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead?

Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die?

Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!?

Did they die?

Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal

death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.

Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?

Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?

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#33

Stephen

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12.27.2019 08:34AM

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12.27.2019 08:34AM

However what interested me most was your quote "It is impossible for you to accept that underneath these scriptures that there is a massive power struggle going on with no miracles happening ." That was quite revealing of your position.

You say that as if I have been hiding my beliefs. I haven't. I have been very open on many occasions about my stance on these scriptures concerning their ambiguous half stories, And there is a massive power struggle going on that the gospellers and or the editors seem to want to play down.

The story reads at odds with your underlying desire for rationalisation. It is difficult for you to take at face value "miracles".

It is not difficult for me at all not to take these stories at face value. I don't and never could. I believe that there is something more going on in these scriptures that the writers or editors don't want us to know. That is my belief. I have covered the "raising of Lazarus" already in a thread all of its own, here https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/416/lazarus-the-raising? But this thread is about why, seemingly healthy people wanted to "die" when Christianity to my mind is all about life, giving life, sparing life, love of life, life everlasting and life after death . Jesus himself speaks only of life and living:

John 11: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. And indeed the very idea and purpose of Jesus "raising" the dead Lazarus, was to bring him back to life.

There is absolutely no reaction from Jesus when Thomas makes this wildly unreasonable and illogical suggestion.

Although why that is the case when you clearly believe in some kind of deity is intriguing.

Assumption.

He was "living" proof of Jesus' authority over death.

No. I don't agree and you are falling back on miracles to explain this story away. Those priests wanted Lazarus dead because Jesus had "raised him" to the priesthood where they believed he had no authority to do so. And they were afraid of losing control and power the temple (and its lucrative funds) and the population over to Jesus. the scripture appears to confirm this

John 12:10-15 King James Version (KJV)

10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

And the "belief" mentioned here is the "belief" that he was king of the Jews and nothing to do with bringing "dead" corpses to life.

The people of Israel could hardly refute his miracle raising from the dead.

Why couldn't they? did all " the people o Israel" witness stinking dead corpse of Lazarus being "raised from the dead" They could refute it and they did. for a start the Sadducee did not believe in resurrection of the dead. Were they not included as being "people of Israel"?

After all - he was dead for four days and every one knew it.

So you say. I don't know it and many in 1st century Palestine didn't know it either

Still let us get back to your ritualistic raising of the dead -

No. I have done that had had no answers to my questions in return. THE PURPOSE OF THIS PARTICULAR THREAD IS-

from post one and the original UNANSWERED question is

"SO, The question of course has to be why would two fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said, had been dead, for "four days"!!!! (yes I know)" .https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?

#34

Mopac

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Mopac

12.27.2019 12:04PM

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@Stephen

You are splitting hairs.

#35

Tradesecret

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12.28.2019 03:01AM

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@Stephen

"SO, The question of course has to be why would two fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said, had been dead, for "four days"!!!! (yes I know)" .https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?

Well if that is the question, then you will forever be lost wondering about a question that does not have an answer because the intent of the passage is not what you are asking.

They did not wish to die alongside Lazarus. There is not a scrap of evidence suggesting that is what they were wanting to do. The context clearly reveals that the disciples were concerned about the anger against Jesus if he were to return to a particular area. After Jesus decided he was going to this area, his disciples, loyal as they were, begrudgingly, decided they would go with him - and to their death - if that is what happened.

That is the answer that lies within the context of this story. Most commentators agree with this reasoning. Your assumptions about the text are yours. Hold onto them if that is your desire. But when you ask a question - expect that others do not see the things that you see because you have to read them into the text. In other words, this verse is problematic for you, and possibly only for you.

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#36

Stephen

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12.28.2019 06:05AM

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@Mopac

What did Lazarus die of?

What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?

How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?

Why do YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?

Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?

Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?

How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead?

Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die?

Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!?

Did they die?

Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal
death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.

Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?

Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?

You are splitting hairs.

You have missed the questions.

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#37

Stephen

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12.28.2019 07:14AM

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@Tradesecret

"SO, The question of course has to be why would two fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said, had been dead, for "four days"!!!! (yes I know)" .https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?
Well if that is the question, then you will forever be lost wondering about a question that does not have an answer because the intent of the passage is not what you are asking.

It is the question. and you would have known that had you not ignored it or even bothered reading from P1.

So you don't have an answer at all then. Just as I thought, I am not surprised, it was to be expected . You don't have answers to my other questions either. You are only good for repeating these scriptures "with your own spin". But as soon as you have someone like me come along who seriously challenges these gospels, and " your spin on them". you fold.

They did not wish to die alongside Lazarus.

The scriptures clearly tell us it was Lazarus.

There is not a scrap of evidence suggesting that is what they were wanting to do.

The scriptures clearly has Thomas saying:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

You can deny those verses until the second coming and they won't change.The fact that the " him", is Lazarus.

And even if you were correct in believing the verses were about Jesus, you still haven't explained why Thomas would even suggest such a thing as suicide when Jesus message and Christianity is all about life, giving life, sparing life, love of life, life everlasting and life after death .

Jesus himself speaks only of life and living. Yet there is not a single protestation from Jesus when Thomas suggest they go and "die". This in and of itself is a complete contradiction to what we are led to believe was Jesus' soul mission here was on earth.

The context clearly reveals that the disciples were concerned about the anger against Jesus if he were to return to a particular area. After Jesus decided he was going to this area, his disciples, loyal as they were, begrudgingly, decided they would go with him - and to their death - if that is what happened.

Opinion and "spin". And is your only way around these questions.

That is the answer that lies within the context of this story.

Now you are doing what is expected of all Christians when posed a real serious question . You are allowing yourself to explain "what lies within" while dismissing what an atheist reveals "what lies within". You just won't allow yourself to relalise the fact that there are honest, reasonable and very earthly answers to these verses. You cannot do without your miracles.

Most commentators agree with this reasoning.

That would be full blown theist no doubt. And yet other scholars have it different.

Your assumptions about the text are yours.

They are. And I believe that the other "risings and raising from the dead" and "dying" for no reason tales also prove me to be correct. And what's more, my belief and explanations do not rely on "miracles" to explain these enigmatic verses.

Acts 5. Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, just appear to drop down dead for no reason.

Matthew 8:22. A grieving disciple wants time off from his duties to bury his dead father and Jesus' response to the poor man in mourning is to simply say "let the dead bury the dead".

John 11:16 And Thomas suggestion that they "die"

Only do these enigmatic tales make any sense is if "the dead" means something other than a literal physical death. And in these cases, it clearly has to mean something else. which it does as I have show. My questions alone prove my point and you being unable to answer those questions proves it even further,

Hold onto them if that is your desire.

I do. And I will keep asking my questions, the same questions that are obviously far too awkward and difficult for you to take on .

But when you ask a question - expect that others do not see the things that you see......

I don't . I expect them and YOU to answer my questions without falling back and relying on miracles and superstition.

because you have to read them into the text.

But haven't you just told me what " "what lies within" while dismissing what I believes "lies within".

In other words, this verse is problematic for you,

The the problem lies with the devout Christian. It is not problematic to me. I know what they mean.

Now...would you like to take on my questions,Tradesecret ?

What did Lazarus die of?

What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?

How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?

Why do YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?

Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?

Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?

How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead?

Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die?

Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!?

Did they die?

Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal

death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.

Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?

Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?

#38

Mopac

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Mopac

12.28.2019 03:03PM

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@Stephen

Most of your questions dissapear if you accept the truth, and the rest are not really important.

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#39

Stephen

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Stephen

12.28.2019 03:50PM

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@Mopac

Most of your questions dissapear if you accept the truth, and the rest are not really important.

No they don't. And neither do they disappear by you ignoring them.

What did Lazarus die of?

What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?

How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?

Why do YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?

Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?

Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?

How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead?

Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die?

Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!?

Did they die?

Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"?

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal

death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.

Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to be only "sick" and then "sleeping" and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus?

Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong?

#40

Mopac

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12.28.2019 04:01PM

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@Stephen

I am instructed....

"foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will"

That being the case, I consider these foolish and unlearned questions, and suggest it would be more edifying for you if you simply received what the church teaches.

It is more important to find The Way than it is to split hairs over things that are in many cases both unknowable and irrelevant in regards to salvation.

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#41

Stephen

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Stephen

12.29.2019 10:39AM

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@Mopac

Thomas is refering to the fact that they are going to Judea, where they want to kill Jesus.

Nope. Learn to read.It is all to do with Lazarus at this point.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him [Lazarus] out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he [Lazarus] sleep, he [Lazarus] shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his [Lazarus'] death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.<<<<<Lazarus.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.<<<<<, LAZARUS! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

#42

Mopac

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Mopac

12.29.2019 05:31PM

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@Stephen

Your interpretation is obviously wrong, because it doesn't make sense.

The interpretation that I presented to you is clearly stated in the text, and it is done in such a way that that is a lot clearer than you are making it out to be.

#43

disgusted

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disgusted

12.30.2019 02:24AM

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@Mopac

I am instructed....

By primitive ignorant superstitious savages.

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#44

Stephen

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12.30.2019 08:40AM

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@Mopac

It is all to do with Lazarus at this point.

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him [Lazarus] out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he [Lazarus] sleep, he [Lazarus] shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his [Lazarus'] death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.<<<<<Lazarus.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.<<<<<, LAZARUS! https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

Your interpretation is obviously wrong,

How so? Lazarus was from Bethany .It was in Bethany that Lazarus was "sick". The message that Lazarus was "sick" came from Bethany, Lazarus "died" in Bethany. Jesus said "let us go to him" in Bethany. And Thomas said, "let us also go that we may die with him".

So tell me ;

Who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him" ?

Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?

#45

Mopac

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Mopac

12.30.2019 12:49PM

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@Stephen

Bethany is in Judea, Stephan. It is literally on the other side of The mount of Olives from Jerusalem. It's hardly a half an hour walk.

Perhaps you should give up trying to be the teacher and accept guidance from the Holy Orders of the church.

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#46

Stephen

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Stephen

12.30.2019 01:08PM

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@Mopac

Your interpretation is obviously wrong,
The mount of Olives from Jerusalem. It's hardly a half an hour walk.

Irrelevant!.

You are not answering the questions are you? Why not?

So tell me ;

Who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him" ?

Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?

#47

Mopac

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12.30.2019 01:14PM

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@Stephen

It is not irrelevant at all, because it demonstrates your position is STUPID. Thankfully for you, that only makes you stupid if you are incapable of swallowing your pride and refuse to repent. To repent on the other hand, would show that you aren't a weakling and actually maybe even have some integrity. Nothing is gained from stubbornly clinging to folly.

Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.

Who might as well lived in Jerusalem where they were trying to kill Jesus, because it is a farther walk for me to go downtown from where I live, and Lazarus lived closer to Jerusalem than that.

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#48

Stephen

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Stephen

12.30.2019 01:22PM

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So tell me ;

Who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him" ?

Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?

To see Lazarus.

That's correct!

And Lazarus was dead, in Bethany wasn't he?

And who did Jesus mean when he said "let us go unto him"

Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.

That's correct. He wanted to see the now "dead" Lazarus in Bethany, didn't he? And we know this because above we can read Jesus clearly saying who he is going to see because >>>>. 14 Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 ........ nevertheless "let us go unto him".

Then Thomas says 16 .......Let us also go, that we may die with him.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

Jesus above has clearly said " let us go unto him.". This being Lazarus as you have now acknowledged. You have also acknowledged that Lazarus is "dead" in Bethany.

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

#49

Mopac

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Mopac

12.30.2019 01:26PM

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@Stephen

I think you should read over everything again. You have no case, and I am not interested in enduring any vapid rhetoric or piss poor sophistry. This would be an inevitability were I to humor you with the hope that the position you hold is tenable.

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#50

Stephen

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Stephen

12.30.2019 01:42PM

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12.30.2019 01:42PM

Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.

That's correct. He wanted to see the now "dead" Lazarus in Bethany, didn't he? And we know this because above we can read Jesus clearly saying who he is going to see because >>>>. 14 Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 ........ nevertheless "let us go unto him".

Then Thomas says 16 .......Let us also go, that we may die with him.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

You have no case,

Jesus above has clearly said " let us go unto him.". This being Lazarus as you have now acknowledged. You have also acknowledged that Lazarus is "dead" in Bethany.

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

#51

Athias

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12.30.2019 03:36PM

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@Stephen

No it's not. Because as you say above and , what I "believe is irrelevant", especial to any and all theists. You are all very good at that. Those questions are genuine questions that you simply cannot answer. That now is clearly evident. Those unanswered questions concerning this whole of the enigmatic and ambiguous tale prove me right, even if you don't answer them. And again, you don't have to believe what I believe do you.

Yes, it is. Your point can and should be made without anyone providing you any sort of "answers." (Because you're the one who's supposed to provide the answers since it is your claim.) And the fact that you believe that "those unanswered questions concerning this whole of the enigmatic and ambiguous tale prove [you] right, even if [I] don't answer them" conveys your attempt to argue from ignorance. Your questions rely primarily on your rejection of the possibility of resurrection. More so, that the context under which Jesus spoke with his apostles categorically rejects the possibility of resurrection. You have not substantiated this. Instead you're relying on your contrived questions which attempt to defer the onus of casting doubt to those who question and scrutinize your argument, rather than your providing substance toward your own affirmation.

I've debated for several years--decades even--and I know when someone is trying avoid their onus. You clearly are.

I find it amazing that you are asking me to provide proof and substance to for what I believe

That which you find "amazing" is irrelevant. I'm not engaging you in this discussion to read about that which "you feel;" I'm engaging you in this discussion so that I can read about that which you can substantiate. And thus far, you have substantiated very little; you ought to address that.

Ducking is exactly what you are doing. Your'e problem here is that while your struggling to respond my questions with filibustering and protests of why you won't be answering my questions, you have became so fixated on "raising " the dead.

I would not duck that which I have no obligation to answer. And don't backpedal, now: you said that raising the dead was a metaphorical ritualistic appointment to the priesthood and/or advancement in "the movement." Substantiate this claim especially in light of the fact Thomas was already an apostle. And I'm only "fixated" on that which you state informs your claim.

It was a good and fare question, you ignored my reply.

What did Lazarus die of?

What was he doing in the tomb when it was, apparently, common knowledge that Jesus could "raise the dead"?

You're addressing the scrutiny with questions. Because once again, you are trying to shift the burden of proof. And I've come to the presumption that you have no answers. Yet this doesn't qualify your allegations that others (e.g. ethang5) are "wrong." If this were simply an attempt by you to engage others in an exploratory exercise of semantic and linguistic malleability, that would be one thing--perhaps, even entertaining. But this is your attempt at confirming your rejection of the possibility of resurrection by casting doubt on the language. That's fair game. But that means you, as the sole author of that claim, are responsible for providing substance and/or proof towards your affirmation--no one else. Instead, you're assuming the veracity of your claim rather than inferring it, and relying on others to cast doubt (by using contrived questions) to substantiate your claim. That's textbook argument from ignorance a.k.a. argumentum ad ignorantium.

Provide proof and/or substance to your claim, or drop the argument.

I asked you:
How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?  You avoided it.

You haven't haven't told me why YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead? You avoided it.

I asked you:
Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?  You avoided it.

I asked you:
Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?  You avoided it.

I asked you:
How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead? You avoided it.

I asked you:
Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane healthy men to die? You avoided it.

I asked you:
Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!????You avoided it.

I asked you:
Did they die? You avoided it.

I asked you:
Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"? You avoided it.

I asked you:
What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal
death wouldn't Jesus have simply "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.  You avoided it.

Repeating your questions doesn't change a thing; alleging that I'm avoiding your questions doesn't change a thing; stop relying on me to answer your questions, and rely on your industry as a debater to incorporate evidence in your affirmation. To put it succinctly: make and substantiate your point, or drop it.

#52

Mopac

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Mopac

12.30.2019 03:49PM

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@Stephen

We are not disputing the fact that Jesus went to see Lazarus.

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#53

Stephen

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Stephen

12.30.2019 06:31PM

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12.30.2019 06:31PM

We are not disputing the fact that Jesus went to see Lazarus

Good. And you agree that he went to see him in Bethany.

Why did Jesus go to Bethany , Mopac,?

To see Lazarus.

but still you say this;

You have no case,

So now answer these simple questions

Who is it that Jesus is talking to at verse 15 below when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

12 Then said his disciples,Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto hisfellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

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#54

Stephen

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Stephen

12.30.2019 06:55PM

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@Athias

Provide proof and/or substance to your claim, or drop the argument.

I have proved my claim. And I haven't and won't be dropping anything.

Those other verses and my questions prove my claim. And what is more by you refusing to answer those questions proves me right even more.

I have pointed out to you that you didn't answer the very first question at post 1. You concentrated on "raising the dead " instead of telling me why Thomas suggested they all die. The question was all to do with death not "raising to the dead" Lazarus .

from post One

"SO, The question of course has to be why would two fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said, had been dead, for "four days"!!!! https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3347/one-of-the-most-enigmatic-verse-in-all-christianity?

You ignored me when I raised the obvious ,

here>>>>>Remember Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!? But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong???!!!!! And he not only got it completely wrong, the scriptures states that he could have saved him from "dying" had he not "tarried" a further two days done by the river. <<<<this too tells us that Lazarus wasn't literally and physically "DEAD". or your Savior Jesus is the biggest liar of all creation not to mention confused as to the state of Lazarus's health.

You should look closely at what is meant by Lazarus first being sick, then asleep and the dead, instead of just believing the first bit of bullshit that is served in front of you.

#55

Athias

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Athias

12.30.2019 09:02PM

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@Stephen

I have proved my claim.

What have you proved? Where have you proved this? At best, you made reference to Jesus's using the term "dead" in two different contexts (i.e. "let the dead bury their dead.") But you haven't substantiated at all the description you claim the term, "dead," bears in the context of your reference. You're merely pointing out other references in attempt to make the connection. You have not demonstrated how the description suits the context. Your description of how they were using the term dead makes no sense especially when reading all 57 verses you referenced.

Those other verses and my questions prove my claim.

No they don't. And questions don't prove. Questions are inquisitive, not conclusive.

And what is more by you refusing to answer those questions proves me right even more.

Incorrect. Your reasoning is fallacious; it's known as argument from ingorance a.k.a. argumentum ad ignorantiam. It is an informal logical fallacy that denotes a proposition to be true, in the event that its negation is not affirmed and/or proven true. I spotted this attempt of yours from the very moment you asked your questions. Once again, I'm not going to do you any favors by helping you make your point--i.e. answering contrived questions which assume the veracity of your point; hence, I refuse to answer your questions. It is up to you to help yourself make your points, not I. My capacity in this discussion does not at all inform your affirmations and arguments.

Make and substantiate your point, or drop the argument.

I have pointed out to you that you didn't answer the very first question at post 1. You concentrated on "raising the dead " instead of telling me why Thomas suggested they all die. The question was all to do with death not "raising to the dead" Lazarus .

Don't backpedal. You stated this toward the information of your own claim:

They wanted Lazarus dead because Jesus had "raised him" into the priest hood. The priests believed Jesus to have no authority to do so. This is why they wanted him AND Jesus dead. They were afraid of losing the nation over to its rightful king, Jesus, and newly anointed priest Lazarus.

Then when prodded about Thomas's motivations about seeking to "die with [Lazarus]" using your description and this proposed prospect of being "raised to priesthood," you stated:

Thomas was of a lower ranking status in the movement. He was just an disciple among other disciples.

Are you now dropping this point?

You ignored me when I raised the obvious

I'm not ignoring you; I'm telling you outright that I refuse to answer your questions. And I've given you the reasons for my refusal a few times already.

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#56

Stephen

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Stephen

12.31.2019 09:39AM

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12.31.2019 09:39AM

Those other verses and my questions prove my claim.
No they don't. And questions don't prove.

Opinion.

And what is more by you refusing to answer those questions proves me right even more.
Incorrect.

opinion

Make and substantiate your point, or drop the argument.

Nope. Lazarus was not "dead", The disciples along with Jesus went to Bethany where Lazarus was reported sick, then asleep and then "dead" <,, (after Jesus himself said that Lazarus wouldn't "die"), and the "raising" is nothing more than an initiation ceremony. A ceremony that is replicated and repeated even today by Freemasons..

You and ethnag - popoff - 5 have BOTH made the silly argument that Lazarus was already dead "so how could they die with him if he was already dead". Posts 19 & 21

I ask you this , how then can a dead man walk if he is "dead"

43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. ^^^^^^^^^^

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11&version=NIV

So going by your own understanding and reasoning, the scripture states "The man" that was "dead", but was walking out of the tomb. How can he walk anywhere if he is physically "dead".!!??

Your faith has let you down as has your reading and understanding of these scriptures.

You need to look at the sequence to understand what had happened to Lazarus and understand what it was he "died" of. But you won't. Your blind faith won't allow you to.

drop the argument.

I won't be dropping anything until you start answering questions that you should have no problem answering.

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#57

Stephen

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Stephen

12.31.2019 11:55AM

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@Mopac

Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.

That's correct. He wanted to see the now "dead" Lazarus in Bethany, didn't he? And we know this because above we can read Jesus clearly saying who he is going to see because >>>>. 14 Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 ........ nevertheless "let us go unto him".

Then Thomas says 16 .......Let us also go, that we may die with him.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

You have no case,

Jesus above has clearly said " let us go unto him." this being Lazarus as you have now acknowledged. You have also acknowledged that Lazarus is "dead" in Bethany.

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

#58

Mopac

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Mopac

12.31.2019 12:50PM

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@Stephen

You have no case, and your stubborn refusal to admit your mistake makes you more deserving of mockery than debate at this point. It is great folly to commit to one's errors and correct course.

This topic is over. Your original post has been thoroughly debunked. If saving face is so important to you, I advise going down gracefully rather than continuing your futile argument.

You are talking nonsense.

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#59

Stephen

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Stephen

12.31.2019 01:24PM

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@Mopac

You have no case,

So you keep saying. But at first you were adamant that the story was all to do with them being afraid for Jesus' safety if they went to Judea. But we have now established they were IN FACT going to Bethany to see a "dead Lazarus". Bethany must have been one of the safest places Jesus could have gone. Bethany was nothing short of Jesus' field of operations. Almost everything he done and happened to him before the crucifixion took place or started in Bethany. He felt so safe there near the Jordan that he "tarried" a few more days! while Lazarus apparently died after Jesus said he wouldn't "die". Now either Jesus was wrong or Jesus purposefully lied or Jesus was talking some other type of death, a spiritual death , maybe?

So now we have established to where he intended to go and to who it was that Jesus went to see and why, let us see if we can get over this little hurdle.

Who is it that Jesus is talking to when he says "" let us go unto him." ?

And where about is it that Jesus means they should go to?

Your original post has been thoroughly debunked.

You so desperately wish that to be the case don't you. WELL ITS NOT!!!!!

So stop lying. You know that I am slowly chipping away at the lies and deceit in these scriptures and you and the others cannot face it.

Try answering those questions.

#60

Mopac

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Mopac

12.31.2019 01:28PM

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@Stephen

No.

They are going to see Lazarus, who lives in Bethany. Bethany is so close to Jerusalem that it might as well be considered ppart of Jerusalem. They want to kill Jesus in Jerusalem. Visiting Lazarus is dangerous.

There is nothing about this that is complicated or difficult to understand. It is all right there in the text. You are being obtuse.