Forum Restructuring

Author: Barney
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#31
TheRealNihilist
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@Vader
Artistic Expression is different from Art. Art does not suggest in anyway as custom or personal. This distinguishes a broad art vs a user specific art
Please read what you say before posting it. If you actually think this is a worthwhile comment, rephrase it. 
 but putting it in industry is mixing two things that don't generally belong
Like you said sports is a form of entertainment and if you think it warrants a new section because it is a different form of entertainment then that very argument can be used to have Movies, TV different categories as well. Not even mentioning its basically if you are not at the stadium a TV show. 

Why not actually try an argue against what I said? Only 2 people are on the Sports consistently. Seems like you don't like to understand how irrelevant it is compared to Politics and Philosophy which you think should be in the same category? 
No. This is stupid. Just because you do not play mafia =/= we need cluster video game and tech topics with forum mafia when it is the base for this community
Please define base before calling my claim what I think is sufficient stupid. 
This is not true. Mafia is key to this community and generates and warrants enough discussion to be separate. Same with videogames
I am doing this one at a time. Don't bother defining key, just define base. 
#32
Vader
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Artistic Expression is different from Art. Art does not suggest in anyway as custom or personal. This distinguishes a broad art vs a user specific art
Please read what you say before posting it. If you actually think this is a worthwhile comment, rephrase it. 
FYI the edit did not change what I say. I gave Ragnar permission to edit my post to make it structurally better

 but putting it in industry is mixing two things that don't generally belong
Like you said sports is a form of entertainment and if you think it warrants a new section because it is a different form of entertainment then that very argument can be used to have Movies, TV different categories as well. Not even mentioning its basically if you are not at the stadium a TV show. 

Why not actually try an argue against what I said? Only 2 people are on the Sports consistently. Seems like you don't like to understand how irrelevant it is compared to Politics and Philosophy which you think should be in the same category? 
In the case of sports, it does not matter wherever it generates site hysteria, it is about how it relates to the category. Sports does not bode well with people who like entertainment and most people on site do not like sports besides mharman, drf, and nd (who is banned). If we spam that section with sports, it takes away from movies and stuff like that. You can't combine things that don't coincide well with each other. It is just a fact of nature

No. This is stupid. Just because you do not play mafia =/= we need cluster video game and tech topics with forum mafia when it is the base for this community
Please define base before calling my claim what I think is sufficient stupid. 
This is not true. Mafia is key to this community and generates and warrants enough discussion to be separate. Same with videogames
I am doing this one at a time. Don't bother defining key, just define base. 
So you basically just did not respond to my mafia claim? LMAO, you are not the one that is making decisions, you can not say you are "reevaluating" the decisions and stuff. 

You have even played a mafia game, you should not even have an input in this category is my belief, but that could hurt your feelings, and since you think I am so mean, I will use everything in my force to not say that
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#33
Barney
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@ethang5
@Wylted
@Vader
@Mopac
@TheRealNihilist
This should cover the broad swath of questions and concerns recently raised. If I've missed anything you consider important, please remind me...


Sports:
The sports forum ranks 8th is terms of topics (but lags to 14th in terms of overall posts). Combined the TV, Movies, and Music, would currently only match that (not even getting into how much of the music I would move into the Artistic Expression forum). With 78 vs. 94 topics, I believe Supa is right that the sports fans would spam out everyone else; which can easily be avoided by leaving them their own forum.

While my initial thought was to lump them all in one (basically whatever people are going to watch at home on TV), a sports fan (Supa specifically) requested that it be left separate; both causing me to evaluate it individually, and consider the desires of the users.

And yes, sports fans do indeed consume their product in a different way than say fans of the latest Netflix show. Music fans occasionally do as well, but they are far closer to fans of TV and Movies than of Sports (especially with how much music goes on prime time television now). Also as ethang5 said, "there is a good reason supermarkets place slow moving items in the same aisle as popular items."

I do consider them related enough for the current names of Entertainment Industry, which does put them side by side in the ordering. However, I am of course willing to change names within the proposal before it gets sent up to Mike.


Philosophy and Religion:
I believe at this point them staying separate is an open and shut matter. Religion is ranked #3, Philosophy also does well at #6.

While religion is a subcategory of philosophy; someone starting a philosophy thread about say Kantian ethics, probably doesn't want someone to pull any gods as a Kritik of ethics being meaningless in light of some divine plan. Similarly someone in the religion forum talking about the commandments of their god, would not want someone to jump in saying they should switch to nihilism.


Games:
The current proposal has them separated into two forums based on user needs and interest. Mafia and related ones, is generally for any time users want to play games on the forums. Separate from that, is discussion of video games, people making Minecraft servers, etc.

Right now the Games forum does very well at #4. Most of that seems to be Mafia, with other topics getting swiftly buried. I honestly don't know if there would be quite enough distinct activity to warrant a second forum for games, but I'm open to the idea. Plus the moderation tools while not perfect, would probably take me only about 10 minutes to assign each of the deviant threads over (and yes, with this being my proposal, I would take the work onto myself).

Right now I see someone in the games forum organizing an online game of Risk. This does make me question if I game names the categories quite right. Any suggestions?


Art vs. Artistic Expression (community generated art, music, writing, etc.):
This change is intended to create a single clear repository for a wide range of user generated artistic content (one which the simple name "Art" does not adequately imply). Using music as an example, right now user contributions on divided between two (or sometimes three) forums, with no clear right answer to which it should be posted.

There are of course some threads in the current forum which would be moved to other forums. A discussion about bad jokes at a TV award ceremony for example, would have a clear destination (right now it fits right in at multiple locations)
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#34
Barney
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@zedvictor4
Change for the sake of it perhaps.

What would be the real benefits of changing the current format?
There are 22 forums, most of which are not particularly utilized. The change would ideally handle the current problem of ghost forums. Plus people would on average spend less scrolling past stuff to which they are not interested. Also far less ambiguity on where things should go.
#35
LordLuke
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I've always thought it was messy too, thinking they should do something like that.

So I completely agree with this new structuring proposal.
#36
TheRealNihilist
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@Barney
I believe Supa is right that the sports fans would spam out everyone else; which can easily be avoided by leaving them their own forum.

Tell them to not spam by having a thread "football league discussion". 
(Supa specifically) requested that it be left separate; both causing me to evaluate it individually, and consider the desires of the users.
You do know there are only 2 people in that thread right?
I believe at this point them staying separate is an open and shut matter. Religion is ranked #3, Philosophy also does well at #6.
Thank you. Can you please use facts to state what will occur with the sports section?
I honestly don't know if there would be quite enough distinct activity to warrant a second forum for games, but I'm open to the idea.
I don't think it would do well but trying it out won't hurt.
Using music as an example, right now user contributions on divided between two (or sometimes three) forums, with no clear right answer to which it should be posted.
It would be the same reason that I have with games. There isn't enough to warrant a separate. I know you value Supa's opinion but having a dead section isn't really what I consider worth it. 
#37
Vader
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@TheRealNihilist
No. If you read sports you would see why
#38
ethang5
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While religion is a subcategory of philosophy; someone starting a philosophy thread about say Kantian ethics, probably doesn't want someone to pull any gods as a Kritik of ethics being meaningless in light of some divine plan. Similarly someone in the religion forum talking about the commandments of their god, would not want someone to jump in saying they should switch to nihilism.

Thank you!
#39
Tejretics
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@Barney
Religion would have to be separate from philosophy. For sure.

Economics should be clubbed into politics/society.

#40
zedvictor4
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@Barney
Do it.

We will soon get used to the change.

After all, a forum discussion is an individual unit irrespective of where it might be located.
#41
oromagi
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  • I'm not clear on the advantage of halving the number of forums (for users, at least)
  • Nobody seems to respect the forum subject headers all that much anyway. 
  • The priority to my mind is to segregate the different functions to achieve different styles of interaction.
    • Users want a couple of spaces for high visibility rapid fire clash- mostly about religion, us current political scene,  and above all internal site politics.  I think these users should be accommodated without running over the slower conversations with more back & forth, less invective.  These users definitely seem to prefer placement at the top of the page. 
    • Mafia needs its own space and there's little point to trying to discuss anything there when games are hot. 
    • Beyond clash groups, game groups, and conversational groups some folks like me just enjoy posting shit bulletin style with no real expectation or desire for conversation about it.   The lesser used forums have worked pretty well for that purpose this year but if we shrink the number of available forums I would guess this type of posting would fall away.
  • Initially the forums seemed poorly organized to me but now I feel like I prefer the pace and decorum of the slower forums  and mostly avoid the churn and noise of the busier ones.
  • Increased competition and rapid posting tends to disintegrate the thread of conversation and discourage my interest, so I expect that any reduction in the number of forums would likely reduce my participation rather than improve it.


#42
Jeff_Goldblum
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@Barney
I think lumping is a great idea. Put whatever you want together. If I want to talk about a political issue, I have no problem with going to a forum section for "Society, Politics, Philosophy," etc. As long as I know where to go, it does not matter to me if there are somewhat unrelated posts lumped together in a forum section. I expect this reform will generally increase participation in all forum posts.

Also, it seems like people are complaining about where in the list order their favorite topic is placed. Who cares? How could it possibly matter if religion is listed last or second-to-last? There are only going to be a handful of sections, so it's not like people couldn't be bothered to scroll down a massive list to stumble upon religion.

#43
RationalMadman
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I support them being ranked by activity 100% but DART #1 should stay that way, even though Religion is more active. Then from that downwards, ranked by activity.

#44
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@Barney
I think it's a pretty good idea, but are is the order of the forums going to be in the order you stated?
#45
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@Barney
Im fine with the status quo. Will there be a vote on this?
#46
Christen
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@Barney
Can you extend the character limit in the forums so I can add longer posts and not have to split a long post into 2 posts?
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#47
Barney
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@Christen
"Can you extend the character limit in the forums...?"
Done. It is doubled from 5,000 to 10,000 characters. There will still be long posts which need to be divided, but less division and less awkward placements for said divisions. Of course the stream of one line posts from irritate people trying to clog up the notification system, will be wholly unaffected. ... And yes, this change was well outside my power, but Mike did it a few days ago.
#48
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@Barney
NO nac
#49
PGA2.0
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@Barney

Current Draft (updated at 10:00 PST 11/2):
  1. DebateArt.com (Community)
  2. DebateArt.com (Site Management)
  3. Artistic Expression (community generated art, music, writing, etc.)
  4. Entertainment Industry (Music, Movies, TV, etc.)
  5. Entertainment Industry (Sports)
  6. Games (Mafia and other forum games)
  7. Games (video gaming and related technology)
  8. Health and Science
  9. History, Politics, and Society
  10. Philosophy
  11. Religion
  12. Miscellaneous (everything else...)



I like it and it passes the test, but it could even be condensed further by classing the forum threads to the most popular by volume (5,000 or 10,000 and above responses deserve their own thread) and a miscellaneous to accommodate the rest. Any thread under five thousand responses could be relegated to miscellaneous, yet covered under the description of that thread. Religion should be separate from Philosophy as it warrants its own thread by volume of responses. Entertainment could be subcategorized into general and gaming divisions. Health, Science, Technology, History, Politics, Society, Economics, and Artistic Expression (community-generated art, music, writing, etc.) could all be covered under the same thread since the response by volume are small.

 
1. DebateArt.com (Community)
2. DebateArt.com (Site Management)
3. Entertainment and Education (Mafia/Rap/Music/Writing/Books/Movies/Logic/How To/Art/Video/Chess/Bridge/Cards/Go)
4. Health, Science, Technology, History, Society, and Economics
5. Philosophy
6. Politics
7. Religion
(8. Sports)?
9. Misc. (The rest)


#50
Christen
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@Barney
There should also be the option to see how many characters you have left when typing posts, like in a debate.
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#51
Barney
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Current Draft (updated at 10:00 PST 11/2):
  1. DebateArt.com (Community)
  2. DebateArt.com (Site Management)
  3. Artistic Expression (community generated art, music, writing, etc.)
  4. Entertainment Industry (Music, Movies, TV, etc.)
  5. Entertainment Industry (Sports)
  6. Games (Mafia and other forum games)
  7. Games (video gaming and related technology)
  8. Health and Science
  9. History, Politics, and Society
  10. Philosophy
  11. Religion
  12. Miscellaneous (everything else...)
Nothing on it has changed in the last week, but I am still happy to incorporate most feedback.

...

One suggestion of shrinking them more was made, which included combining the Mafia forum with many others. I believe the first page of this thread covered that nine would be too few given the desires of the user base. My original proposal was nine, but that was intended primarily as a point to begin discussion.

A couple users do prefer the current setup (I'll ask them why later if no one else does).
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#52
Barney
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@Tejretics
@LordLuke
@zedvictor4
@TheRealNihilist
@Jeff_Goldblum
@Luke
Thank you for the feedback.


@TRN
At a glance, at least five members use the Sports forum. And again, the way people engage with sports differs from how someone say watches Netflix. The Netflix person might share a meme, the sports person might share a detailed breakdown of how it raining three days before the game is going to shift a decimal point in the performance of one player, in turn changing the point spread of the game (not an exaggeration, just look at Deflate-Gate).

Without doing any serious data mining, Sports should maintain its steady level of participation if left stand alone from other entertainment topics, and potentially draw in new members to argue about sports (not assured).

Sports is not a ghost forum, and there's zero ambiguity of related topics to it, so there's no harm in it staying as is. My only concern is if the name for it is right, as the current draft groups it next to other Entertainment Industry things.


@Tejretics
I'm open to adding in Economics, maybe the forum should be titled "Society (Economics, History, Politics, Etc.)"?


@zedvictor
Thanks for the vote of confidence.


@Jeff
Thanks for the vote of confidence. And as always, your profile picture and name puts a smile on my face.
#53
TheRealNihilist
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@Barney
At a glance, at least five members use the Sports forum.
Are you counting me?
I posted a link that has nothing to do with sports. I can't be called a regular there either given this.
armoredcat has one post in a while on the sports forum.
AvoidDeath hasn't posted for 9 days.

The only two regulars are Supa and Franklin. Doesn't matter about use. It matters how many people use it and how regular they are. 
And again, the way people engage with sports differs from how someone say watches Netflix.
Just like how people engage with Music. Why doesn't that section have its own thread?
The Netflix person might share a meme, the sports person might share a detailed breakdown of how it raining three days before the game is going to shift a decimal point in the performance of one player, in turn changing the point spread of the game (not an exaggeration, just look at Deflate-Gate).
The sports person might share a meme. The Netflix person might share a detail breakdown of how much time an actor spent on perfecting his art for the most recent move or TV show they were in. Here look at this video. If you wanted niche topics talked about here is a channel dedicated to it. If you couldn't find a niche topic here is one from the channel.

If Deflate-Gate wasn't niche then it has to be controversy. Well here is controversy for you.

Just so we are clear what I just did. I simply took the formulation of your arguments and applied it to be comparable to the other side. Meaning the differences you laid out are not actually differences instead you simply not realizing the other side that you are saying doesn't have, actually does have it. 

A person shares a meme.
B person shares a meme.

A has detailed breakdowns.
B has detailed breakdowns.

Look A has this niche topic.
Look B has this niche topic.

A= Sports
B= Netflix or are more fair comparison would be Movies or TV shows because we would be comparing different forms of entertainment not a streaming service vs an entire industry. 
#54
Vader
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@TheRealNihilist
Then you don't touch it often
#55
TheRealNihilist
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@Vader
Then you don't touch it often
If you read what Ragnar said:
At a glance, at least five members use the Sports forum
You would realize he used the word use not often. That means by me simply adding that link I have used the Sports section. 
Topic's author
#56
Barney
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@Vader
@TheRealNihilist
You two should have a debate on if the utility of having a specific Sports forum is positive or negative...
#57
Vader
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@Barney
I would be willing to...
#58
TheRealNihilist
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@Barney
You two should have a debate on if the utility of having a specific Sports forum is positive or negative...
The utility I would gain even accepting this debate is non-existent. If the debate is what is hinging your decision I am not accepting it. I have clearly shown how it is a bad option and you didn't even decide to rebut my points.
 

#59
Vader
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@TheRealNihilist
You have reverted to the same useless nonsense you keep spewing. This is lie. Ragnar has shown conclusive evidence that this forum is active and has a place in their, ranking 8th. I was open to merging Health and Sports because they talk about human exercise and force of the body in motion, but you seem to not care and revert to your claim that you can not base with facts and info, just like good ol TRN.

Your A and B example is the dumbest thing I seen. I can use two separate topics such as the weather and TikTok, and they would fit in this category. It makes no sense and is extremely stupid
#60
Vader
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@TheRealNihilist
Your restricting yourself to forums you are involved in, not thinking about everyone else