Is morality objective or subjective?

Author: Fallaneze

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@3RU7AL
Why is what you do good unless there is a standard of best that is our appeal?
Where's your standard?
Nice answer!!! You continually talk past me. 

The Word of God. Now, where is yours?
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Try changing that nature and you will realize you are under bondage.
Correct.  An omniscient omnipotent god created all human desires and instincts and knew exactly what I would do at the dawn of time.
He created us with the ability to desire. He did not choose those desires for us, we do/did.

Yes, He did know yet He allowed us to find out for ourselves what happens when we reject Him and His goodness. Human history is replete with examples. 
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The Word of God.
Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).

Now, where is yours?
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR LAND
#694
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Correct.  An omniscient omnipotent god created all human desires and instincts and knew exactly what I would do at the dawn of time.
He created us with the ability to desire. He did not choose those desires for us, we do/did.
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?

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What it means is that it explains itself.
Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?

Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?

Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?
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@3RU7AL
Correct.  An omniscient omnipotent god created all human desires and instincts and knew exactly what I would do at the dawn of time.
He created us with the ability to desire. He did not choose those desires for us, we do/did.
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?
IMO, you confuse ethical choices with biological needs and personal tastes. Eating food is a biological need. Liking a particular food is a personal taste. A personal taste/choice is different from a moral choice. The one describes; the other prescribes.

"I like ice-cream" describes a personal taste. You like the taste of ice-cream. There is nothing wrong with liking the taste of ice-cream.

The desire for ice-cream is not morally motivated unless it turns to greed or puts the like above others and above God as an idol. If your wife buys ice-cream for a birthday party for your son so that everyone can have a treat and you eating it all so that no one else gets any, that would be greedy and self-serving. It places your desires above others and your choice only takes your wants/desires into consideration. It is not a loving action. 

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?
First, what is love? What are you speaking of when you say "love?"

Are you speaking of the 1 Corinthians 13:7-7 kind of love?

I do not know the first time yet I put a tough principle of love into action now by seeking to discern for you (uncomfortable for some) biblical truths at the risk of perhaps sounding arrogant or being ridiculed and disliked by you or others for speaking plainly. I have spoken from my heart throughout our discussions, answering your questions to the best of my limited ability, hoping the best for you and anyone else reading this, but knowing it is not up to me.   

4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (NASB)

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (ESV)
4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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@3RU7AL
The Word of God.
Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment. If we did not have governing authorities in place, which owe their existence to God (He can change them quickly) and depend on whether a society seeks after God or is against Him, there would be no limit to what humanity could do. A just and godly leader applies just and godly principles of justice to his/her reign. An unjust ruler applies his own subjective standards which may include some godly principles and usually does but also greatly harms society by unjust rules of law (off the top of my head I think of abortion).

Now, where is yours?
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR LAND
The keyword and common denominator is 'your.' What about others? 
#698
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@3RU7AL
What it means is that it explains itself.
Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?

Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?

Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?
To an extent. To find out the meaning you have to understand the author's meaning. Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test? What about its test for logical consistency or historical accuracy? Where does it claim its ideas originate? What methods does it use to back these claims up by? 
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Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?
IMO, you confuse ethical choices with biological needs and personal tastes. Eating food is a biological need. Liking a particular food is a personal taste.
You're missing the point.

Liking a particular food is not a "choice".  It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.

Liking a particular activity ("good" or "bad") is not a "choice".  It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.

(IFF) an all powerful god made humans from scratch, and knew every single factor that would shape their experiences and desires (THEN) that god basically made all of our "choices" before we were even born.
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Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.
Please be slightly more specific.
#701
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) an all powerful god made humans from scratch, and knew every single factor that would shape their experiences and desires (THEN) that god basically made all of our "choices" before we were even born.
That is what we have a deterministic, cause and effect Universe with a really great illusion of free will. LINK and blurb further below.

In similar way, holographic Universe scenarios, propose that....... ' we are 2D creatures having an illusion of 3D ' ....Jacbob Bekenstiens  and this is 2nded by Leonard Susskind LINK
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jabob Bekenstien discovery of Bekenstiens Bound: 

.....And with it comes a realization that the fundamental belief, prevalent for 50 years, that field theory is the ultimate language of physics must give way. Fields, such as the electromagnetic field, vary continuously from point to point, and they thereby describe an infinity of degrees of freedom. Superstring theory also embraces an infinite number of degrees of freedom.

....Holography restricts the number of degrees of freedom that can be present inside a bounding surface to a finite number; field theory with its infinity cannot be the final story. Furthermore, even if the infinity is tamed, the mysterious dependence of information on surface area must be somehow accommodated. ............{ this latter is his Bekenstiens Bound discovery }


#702
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Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?
First, what is love? What are you speaking of when you say "love?"
What about the people who raised you from birth?

When did you "choose" to love them?

What about the first person you "fell in love with"?

When did you "choose" to love them?
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Thanks for the links!
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(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR LAND
The keyword and common denominator is 'your.' What about others? 
These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.

You treat "others" as either allies or enemies.  The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.
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Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?

Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?

Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?
To an extent. To find out the meaning you have to understand the author's meaning. Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?
Are you familiar with the complete Dead Sea Scrolls?

Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?
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Your welcome.  Suskind ends his utube with two kinds of event horizon.

1} the event horizon of the black hole, wherein we cannot know what is going on INside, ---from our OUTside viewpoint---   except for what we can discern from the event horizon surface,

2} the event horizon of the Universe, wherein we cannot know what is going OUTside, .---from our INside viewpoint---  except for what we can discern from the event horizon surface.

Ive been thinking about this and post those ideas here LINK in Science thread


#707
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@3RU7AL
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?
IMO, you confuse ethical choices with biological needs and personal tastes. Eating food is a biological need. Liking a particular food is a personal taste.
You're missing the point.

Liking a particular food is not a "choice".  It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.
It can be a choice but I understand the behavioural part that influences choices. That is my point about ought from is.  

Liking a particular activity ("good" or "bad") is not a "choice".  It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.
Joe likes hunting people. Is that a choice or an instinct based on personal experience? Whenever morality is involved you go from the is to the ought. Now, if morality is just a biological instinct, then how can you say it is wrong? It is just a biological impulse driven by environment and heredity. What is wrong with that? Everything is determined. There is no choice. 

Are you willing to go there? Going there means that what Hitler did was not evil, just driven by biology and the environment and the way his particular bag of atoms mixed and responded. How can you say that is bad? If it is driven by evolution there is nothing but is, no ought, no moral wrong. Can you live with that? If so, you have no basis for saying what Hitler did was wrong. 

(IFF) an all powerful god made humans from scratch, and knew every single factor that would shape their experiences and desires (THEN) that god basically made all of our "choices" before we were even born.
This is just plain wrong. To my mind, it is a fallacy of composition, a fallacy of false dilemma or, affirming the consequent, all rolled into one.

Although God created us with volition, a will, and since He is transcendent over time so He knows all things that happen in the physical realm, He did not make the choices for us. We ourselves make those. So it was not God making the choices but us. We choose to do evil. When Adam chose to disobey, it was God allowing humanity to have an understanding of what evil was by Adam's choice. Adam could have chose to obey or disobey. He made that decision himself. Evil is the lack of light, the lack of understanding that comes from a personal God. If God wanted to He could have created robots that were programmed to do His will but instead He created us in His image and likeness, as personal beings, with the ability to make choices. Sure, those choices are governed by many things that influence our minds, nevertheless, we choose. 

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@3RU7AL
Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.
Please be slightly more specific.

We face punishment in this lifetime too by our choices, not only imposed by human laws, justices and injustices, but under the surface imposed by God. The principle of as you sow you reap is an example, so is also the principle of God allowing a limited amount of sin before judgment. Sometimes our wrongful actions affect those closest to us. Regardless of whether this is so or not, when we die we are accountable before God for our moral wrongs. We are either accountable by our own merit or accountable through the merit of another - His Son who died on behalf of believers. 
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@3RU7AL
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?
First, what is love? What are you speaking of when you say "love?"
What about the people who raised you from birth?

When did you "choose" to love them?
Love is an action if you are speaking of biblical love. It is kind, it is protective, it wants the best for others, it does not seek its own wants first, it hates evil and loves what is true and right and just. It is patient with others. 

What about the first person you "fell in love with"?
Are you talking about the physical attraction of agape love? 

When did you "choose" to love them?
When I chose to put their wants and needs before my own. When I sacrificed myself on their behalf, willingly, not begrudgingly or out of obligation or duty.  

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@3RU7AL
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR LAND
The keyword and common denominator is 'your.' What about others? 
These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.

You treat "others" as either allies or enemies.  The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.

Conversely, some may argue that the more enemies you get rid of the better you are to protect yourself. I'm pretty sure Kim Jong-un feels this way. The opposition is not tolerated and is eliminated by either jail, death, barring others from entering North Korea, or by his propaganda machine. Why, he even went so far as to murder his half brother and other relatives, murder some of his closest military advisors, and so on. Kim Jong-un has very few allies, only those who think along the same lines as he does and who do not mind using political and military force to achieve an aim. 
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@3RU7AL
Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?

Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?

Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?
To an extent. To find out the meaning you have to understand the author's meaning. Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?
Are you familiar with the complete Dead Sea Scrolls?
No, I have browsed through them online. You? 

Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?
These are many, many writings. They cover a period of time. Some authenticate, others do not. Yes, it meets the experiential test. The writings cover before the fall of Jerusalem yet they confirm the prophecies concerning the fall of and the collapse of the OT economy and covenantal system of Israel over and over again. They also confirm the NT in many ways, such as the promised Messiah and prophetic fulfillment. 
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No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.
Please be slightly more specific.
We face punishment in this lifetime too by our choices, not only imposed by human laws, justices and injustices, but under the surface imposed by God.
But no specific punishments for specific crimes?
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These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.

You treat "others" as either allies or enemies.  The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.
Conversely, some may argue that the more enemies you get rid of the better you are to protect yourself.
Just like how the Israelites treated the Moabites!!  SEE! it's 100% BIBLICAL!!
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When did you "choose" to love them?
Love is an action if you are speaking of biblical love.
I see.  So is it your opinion that a small child cannot love?
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When did you "choose" to love them?
When I chose to put their wants and needs before my own. When I sacrificed myself on their behalf, willingly, not begrudgingly or out of obligation or duty.  
Are you suggesting that you don't love someone until you "choose" to "sacrifice yourself"?

Isn't there some sort of "feeling" that you experience at some point BEFORE you actually "choose" to "sacrifice yourself" that may lead you to make that "choice"?
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@3RU7AL
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.
Please be slightly more specific.
We face punishment in this lifetime too by our choices, not only imposed by human laws, justices and injustices, but under the surface imposed by God.
But no specific punishments for specific crimes?
The specific crimes revolve around the Ten Commandments and our interactions with humanity and with God. It is wrong to steal. It is wrong to lie. It is wrong to covet. It is wrong to murder. It is wrong to practice sexual immorality. We may have to answer for such wrongs within human law but also before the Father in heaven.
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@3RU7AL
These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.

You treat "others" as either allies or enemies.  The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.
Conversely, some may argue that the more enemies you get rid of the better you are to protect yourself.
Just like how the Israelites treated the Moabites!!  SEE! it's 100% BIBLICAL!!

Which reference(s) are you alluding to in Scripture?

God brought judgment via Israel like He brought various judgments on nations for their wrongful actions that were heaped to the limit of His tolerance. He also told Israel to remove from the land those who practice sorcery and idolatry that these people would not influence Israel and turn them away from God. Israel was disobedient and they continually had problems by not obeying God completely.

The tribes within the land were judged by God to be unholy and sinful and a bad influence on Israel. 
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@3RU7AL
When did you "choose" to love them?
Love is an action if you are speaking of biblical love.
I see.  So is it your opinion that a small child cannot love?
No.

Little children sometimes show the most innocent kind of love, without ulterior motives. 

Does your little child not seek you out and does that child not want to spend time with you and hug you just because they value you, not because of something you can do for them?

Does not the little child try to protect their mother from potential harm from someone by placing themselves between their mother and that person threatening the mother, not themselves as their first priority? 

Does not the little child make a picture for their parents because it is thinking of them and wants to please them?
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@3RU7AL
When did you "choose" to love them?
When I chose to put their wants and needs before my own. When I sacrificed myself on their behalf, willingly, not begrudgingly or out of obligation or duty.  
Are you suggesting that you don't love someone until you "choose" to "sacrifice yourself"?
By sacrifice, I mean placing the needs of others before your own needs, thinking of them first. 


Isn't there some sort of "feeling" that you experience at some point BEFORE you actually "choose" to "sacrifice yourself" that may lead you to make that "choice"?
Maybe. Remorse, guilt, or love, the feeling or conviction that the other person deserves your best. Your conscious may prod you or make you feel guilty that you ate the whole cake that was baked not only for you but for the whole family or your feelings may lead you to bake the cake for your family for their momentary joy and happiness.  
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Isn't there some sort of "feeling" that you experience at some point BEFORE you actually "choose" to "sacrifice yourself" that may lead you to make that "choice"?
Maybe. Remorse, guilt, or love, the feeling or conviction that the other person deserves your best.
(IFF) your actions are based on your feelings-and-desires (AND) you don't "choose" your feelings-and-desires (THEN) you don't "choose" your actions (you are a feelings-and-desires puppet).